Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Answers to Questions

/me is appalled by the utter contempt you have for your longstanding paying customers with this answer. This is a simple and fair request from your customers, IMO, considering the major upset you are causing with the policy change.

I Agree that this is about finding compelling arguments to convince LL. Offering alternative solutions is a part of that. the compelling argument is that an alternative will work *better* than what they are planning.
These things are mentioned repeatedly because the is either no response for LL or a "non-response" like "We aren't doing that because weren't planning on doing that"

A PG continent in particular would be an elegant solution- they're building a continent already, they have already made a "mature only" continent (Nautilus), so it would also be a fairness issue, and it would serve as an "airlock" for new accounts- "you get to play in disney until you can prove that you are old enough to play in the rest of the world" No forced moves, people can go there is they *want* all PG. It's an Opt-in system rather than a mandatory one. It's the best way to separate the people who are offended from the things which offend them, and the simplest way to keep underage users, who shouldn't be here in the first place, from accessing the depths of SL depravity.

To date, nobody from LL has said anything other than "we weren't considering this, so no" So it stays in circulation- some folks think it's a good idea, and want a more complete answer than that- "tell us *why* it won't work, and we'll come up with something else"
I know that it's beating my head against a wall- that's why I *called it that*

But what else can we do? We don't want to *leave*, we want LL to not enact the digital equivalent of an earthquake or a tsunami every 6-12 months! And how can we inform them, except *here*?



Hey, people feel how they feel. I agree that it's over the top to compare this situation to the holocaust, but some people feel very strongly about it, and I think that LL needs to see that as well.
Personally, I think that the "adult people" are being roped off to the side so we can't do any damage to the tender sensibilities of a few- which to my mind, makes it more like apartheid, or the internment of the Japanese-Americans at Manzanar
than the holocaust- but that's just my opinion.



First of all, a claim that this affects the majority of SL users has at least as much accuracy as the claim that it will only affect 2%-4%. In fact it's probably at least *closer* to the truth, because the number affected is likely to be closer to 51% than to 4%.

Second, we make a big deal out of it because LL has decided that it will be easier to move adult content than to make up an all PG continent seeming on the basis that people who want and use adult goods and services constitute a tiny minority- they can mortally offend us and not suffer any serious economic impact.
We are trying to point out to them that they are *wrong* about this, and drastically so. That this plan has *far* greater effect than just the mainland sims that are dedicated to extreme weirdness. It is a *sprawling* decision that it likely to affect literally *everyone* in SL at some point or other.
Many others have written about the ways in which the non-verified will go about circumventing the new rules, and how the offended will have no relief whatsoever from their pain and agony. I don't need to go into it here. Suffice to say that the *numbers matter*. Both to LL and to every resident in SL.



I don't know. I just know that Dropping it completely is even *less* likely to achieve that. If we don't accept LL's answers, then we must request new ones, *on* topic, and *directly* given. Not PR pablum and corporate buzzwords.

If I get a reasonable, clear answer to my question, I'll stop asking it. UNtil then, I *still* want an answer, and I'm not going to get it without asking.



Well, I don't know, and neither does LL, how in-world residents are going to react,
*because they haven't told them, and don't plan to except in the blogs and forums!*

UNtil they do, *any* answer about how many are affected is simply guesswork, and yours and mine is as good as LL's. Personally, I'm going by my experiences in this forum and in-world. As far as I can see, a clear majority of people who are *aware* of the changes are *against* them. I have no reason to believe that the general population of SL will be any different. These fora are a representative sample of residents (except for the fact that they are only posted in *english*- the non-english speaking part of SL is being left out of this completely). I accept them as such until I get better informaton, and since I have been telling people in-world about this, and LL hasn't, I believe that I have better information than *they* do.



Well, no. Because there are a lot of people on these fora that have concerns other than simple, rational, plan examination. There *are* a lot of side-tracks, but that is the nature of the beast. One has to sift, or open a closed thread called "Proposed alternatives to the segregation of Adult content" and post the actual suggestions *there*.
You'll notice that LL, through Blondin, is providing about 1 answer per 20 questions. The signal to noise ratio in the answers that he *does* produce are pretty high too, so everyone is about on the same level




I agree that we all desperately need more information, including LL! We would like nothing better than to have the complete numbers, the complete rationale, and the complete plan of LL in front of us so that we could have a serious, logical discussion about the future of SL and our participation in it.

But we're not getting that, despite weeks of asking. LL launched this effort, and estimated how many would be affected, before even having a definition of what content would be affected! That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in their process or their goals. Judging from the response I'm getting here and in-world, I'm not alone either.

All LL has to do in order to end the speculation, is to provide more information. this is too big a change to simply sweep under the rug.

If there is a need, What is it? Why *must* it be one?
If there is a crime, what is it? What legal authority does it spring from?
if there is a breakdown in the desired operation of SL, Where is it?
If there is a solution, have all the alternatives been explored?
If alternatives have been discarded, why? In what way are they deficient or unsuitable?
Who will be affected, and why?
What steps will be taken to minimize the trauma?


These are the questions we *need* answered, and are only partially, at best, being addressed. *this* is why we keep asking. The digressions are regrettable, but the questions serve to drag things back on topic, and we *need* to discuss them.

In closing, I'll ask a direct question of *you* What do *you* think is the best way to accomplish LL's goals-
1. Lack of exposure to offensive material by the offended
2. Verification of some form of identity before being allowed to see adult materials
3. Generally "cleaning up" the grid and arranging thing to give users an easier way to identify the places that they would like to go and see.
4. *Eventually* making SL and "all-ages" platform, when children can play too.

-V-

Well, I brought it up in the previous, closed thread- I asked about the "unlucky chairs" and blondin supposedly went to look at them but never answered whether they would be sent to pornopolis or not.
And I asked questions about violent content, screening gory horror movies and the like, without any comment from blondin.
I'll simply repeat what I said before- If I have to go to pornopolis to watch "Night of the Living Dead", or get decapitated by an unlucky chair, but Goreans and other kinds of *slavery* gets to stay "mature", I'm going to be *really* mad.

And as for Vampires, "bloodskeeters" has ruined it for *lots* of people. I've been griefing newbie-hunting mosquitoes since it came out, and I continue to do so. I hand out garlic necklaces with abandon, and if I see a bunch of vamps cruising the freebie store, I have been known to shout "anyone who doesn't want to be bothered by the vampires, see me for a free garlic necklace!"

That said, I do encourage the vampires who try to RP things, and try to score a bite by charm and personality.

Only 2 of my 6 alts are vampires, and those that aren't get importuned whenever they go *anywhere* (Even my vegetable avatar!). both of the vamps used the bloodlines stuff for RP purposes, but I lost interest quite quickly. I'm still looking for something that works of RP and isn't so much like Amway with teeth.

-V-

I'll second that- we've already begun to sex up our land, and if the grownups are going to Ursula, then we'll go with them. And if I never set foot on mainland again, it'll be too soon.


-V-

It was quick and easy to setup and get running. I did a test grid of 4 sims and the general look and feel and performance was much better than SL. With 45,000 prims per sim, shadows, mega prim building, meshes, etc. opensim is ready for prime time. That's why the current rush to implement these sweeping changes makes no sense from a business standpoint. If I can setup my own sim/grid and not pay tier fees to anyone no matter how many sims I run, then why would anyone pay another dime to Linden Labs. And with self ownership of sims/grids you would only be limited by your native countries laws with respect to adult activities. Gambling, Sex, Guns, etc. All available depending on where you are living and where your servers are located. The Linden FIC might want to take that into consideration before embarking on the adult purge.

They are still there, it is vBulletin after all, and poorly maintained at that.
If someone has the capability of archiving these threads and posting I am sure many would appreciate it. I would guess they will be really disappearing very soon.

Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Geographical Separation of Adult Content
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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Filtering Adult Content in Search and Classifieds
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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Account Verification for Accessing Adult Content
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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Definitions
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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Motivations and Goals
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All this makes me even more glad I shut my in-world store earlier this year and went to a 512 coming out of my premium (probably not to be renewed account). I feel so sorry for mainland SIM owners. First come first served. Unbelievable.

Headed to bed here, but that one caught my attention. Yikes!!!! From a logistics standpoint that's a nightmare.

I only have a relatively tiny plot (204 that'll need moved, the rest of my stuff can stay happily where it is. But what a slap in the face to large landowners.

And back to the logistics... first come first served means that somebody with a tiny plot like me might take a space in an otherwise empty sim when next in line is somebody needing an entire sim swapped. It doesn't make much sense.

If it has to be a pseudo first come first serve then have the signup in waves. Signup session 1 closes and then sorted by landowner size needs, if more people are signing up then close session 2 after a time and repeat as necessary. But those with the most land needing to be moved should really be moved first because otherwise you're gonna have to either move somebody twice to accommodate a full sim move or you're going to force landowners to take a smaller chunk or spread across sims.

/me turns off the computer and goes to bed before it gets any worse...

A VERY good question! Taking them down so that people can't check back on what was said is disgraceful.

[Edited in acknowledgment of Kira's post - but still...]

<much snippage>


Romaq, I feel your pain. The "*I* Am Adult Content" group seems to be a mixed bag of folks who object- from what I've seen, they object for many reasons, and can sometimes get vocal.

However, you're not going to see any groups dispassionately discussing the issues until LInden Labs makes an in-world announcement, and from what blondin has posted her, it doesn't seem like they plan to do so.

An calm, reasoned discussion requires everyone to to be aware of the topic discussed. I'd like to see that discussion too, and I'd gladly participate in it, but I don't think that you'll see a group like that unless you start it yourself.

Frankly, Even a Definition of what constitutes "Adult content" is missing from the discussion.

I'm sorry that what you see here and in-world is hysteria. To my view, it comes off more as defiance of something that is obviously going to turn out badly. With the lack of definite information, all we have to go on is LL's track record of customer service, and that makes our view sort of grim.

No offense to you intented- I respect your views, and if they were talking about doing some sort of separation between "PG" and "mature", I'd be cheerleading it too. What I object to is the division of "mature" into "A little more than PG" and "Exiled to the porno continent"

Frankly, I'd think that an all-"pg" continent would be only fair- after all, they made Nautilus completely "mature"... why not give folks who, like you, want to know that "big bob's house of gonads" won't move in next door, something as well?

I'm sorry that you're getting attitude for supporting the changes- that shouldn't be happening

-V-

I haven't been in the game since the beginning, but I have seen a lot of supposition about the motive of people who *called* for the changes.

It was regrettable, but in the two threads I've been involved in, there have been slow, steady stream of trollish posts to stir things up. I'm including those that change the topic, of course. I'm just as bad a anyone else for getting dragged off topic or making a "I'm trying to be witty" humorous reply to something I read here.

BUt I agree that there hasn't been much in the way of support for this idea, and that there has been a "simplifying" of the reasons why someone might agree to it.

Personally, The reason that I don't debate you about your reasons for agreeing with the changes is because I respect your opinion. I have no reason to do otherwise, so why should I try to talk you out of it?
I "engaged" some of the posters in favor of the changes because I thought that they were openly hostile (we all know who I'm talking about) or because some folks seemed to base their opinions on bad information, just like some of the folks *opposed* to the changes have bad information- sometimes I try to correct them too.

By why should I argue with you about your opinion? It's yours, not mine, and you seem to have arrived at it without reliance on bad information.
There's nothing to correct, or debate. We simply disagree about some of the things LL wants to do- no harm, no foul, as far as I'm concerned.

-V-

From the actual data that is stolen from one of these breaches in security, i wonder how many people actually have their ID's cloned. I would be more worried about social engineering or having my CC cloned in a restaurant.

On the poor guy from the USA well we all know the USA shoots first and asks questions afterwards. This is the country that said Iraq had WMD, it tends to over react to many things

If, or I should say when, we all move our business's over to the adult region not only will there be chaos on rebuilding but how we will be selling our goods.

If you do move your stores, which I will have too, ..to the new Adult ghetto we will have to make sure every item we sell is transfer only or face losing more sales. Basically, the setting of copy only is gone in the wind and can't exist in Adult land. If someones alt they choose not to age verify they will only be able to get into adult land with their main characters all items have to be transferable. So this means even more work and time consuming move ahead.

As far as the 9 days to move. I did not take Blondins statement as only having 9 days to move. I believe it was 9 days after Linden informs you of your land swap. You get to pick three places and LL's chooses one of your 3 picks ..you will have 9 days to make the land yours. I am assuming for us that are doing the land swap the land you are "buying" will be for 0 lindens. So I can't imagine LL's is only giving us a total 9 days to move, just to claim the land for the move. I don't own a whole sims, but I know with what I do have a total of 9 days is no where near enough.

I am all for having an Adult continent, but this should not be enforced. I bought Adult land when I spent money buy mature land. It should be open to those that wish to move and all of us being grandfathered that have had our land for so long now. Eventually integrate everyone to the Adult land over a 6 month or year phase. This is really a bad bad way to conduct this change policy. It is going to hurt business's badly. I will not use anymore real time money into SL, if this move causes me to lose money I will close up. For over 2 years my business paid for itself, I see it now as going to hell in a heart beat. We are really seeing the end of great experiences in SL....

So where are these transcripts now? No, not 'still to come' or 'soon', but available *at the same time* as people had access to the audio. Or are a large part of your population considered second class (or is it 3rd class?) residents by LL?

Honestly, can you give us a good reason why you did not do the answers in the text chat in the first place? I had a transcript of the questions (which were in the text log) within moments of the brownbag concluding but it did not do a whole lot of good without knowing what the answers were. So I guess I should coclude none of the questions in that hour were answered?

Yes, I know you think it is unreasonable but we pay your salaries. If another resident (who is not on the payrol of LL) can send us the text log (copy, paste, create a notecard, send the notecard) as soon as the meeting concludes why can LL not do the same? Oh yeah, because you do not have a text log of the answers. Simple solution ...

paraphrasing here but I want to make sure we're all clear:

Either types of payment info will move the account to "account verified" status
Age verification moves it to "Age Verified". which is the highest level of verification possible.

Account Verified will be able to access the adult continent. They will not be able to access a parcel that has an age verification restriction in place.

as an aside, have Aristotle put in safeguards to ensure that this: http://www.massively.com/2007/12/09/aristotle-integrity-el-dia-de-los-muertos/ is no longer occurring? Although since Aristotle are making money of this through data mining, I rather like the idea of 100,000 Elvis Presleys age verifying.. it will make it look like sl is popular with the entertainment industry if they sell on data like employment categories verifying (that kind of data is very popular with marketers).


yes, but when? The brown bags from a few weeks back haven't been made available as either audio or text transcript. For something that is generating this much disruption, I strongly suggest you conduct all future brownbags in text to reduce the time taken to distribute publicly.


not workable I'm afraid, all you need is the small plots to get in first and pick a clean sim and you've effectively shut out all the large landholdings. It is going to be unacceptable to tell them to carve their land up over multiple sims to take what is left.

Sorting by size, whilst not ideal, will be the path of least destructiveness.

I would also suggest you open a list for people to register their interest so you can gauge just how much land will be required. It can be done at the time you release the policy so you don't need to scare the horses any more than you have.


and of course the 9 days from being notified of the allotted parcel until you reclaim the mainland is not acceptable and needs to be revisted.

You don't have to change them if you don't want to. You can change your vendors to ones that allow gifting of purchases or you can direct them to buy at xsl where there's a gifting function.

creating tranfer items is probably not a bad thing though, since it appears around 40% are npiof and a lot of people have rp alts then giving people the ability to transfer items would possibly increase the desirability of your items anyway - move or not.

Unless LL is looking for a lot of extra work, this needs some thought. Something like this suggestion:

As in Phoenix's case, I have only a small amount of land that will need moving, probably under 4096, so I've nothing to gain by arranging for "first come" to be "largest"--but really, it's the sensible way to do it, not only from the standpoint of fairness to LL's larger customers*, but just from "close packing" practicalities. Otherwise smaller parcels will spread out evenly across the continent, leaving no convex spaces for larger parcels.

And I can speak from Burning Life experience that the simple "land grab" model is unimaginably frustrating to residents, forced by primitive circumstances into frantic competition with each other. It may look easy from LL's standpoint (although in this case it just won't work: see above), it is completely unacceptable to residents.

In any case, the logistics are very much different here than for land distributions LL has done before. How will different parcel sizes (and perhaps shapes) be formed as part of the land distribution, or will pre-parceled units of fixed size be used?

________
*Really the larger and more "adult" customers. Some of us have more land that we can't move than that which we must, due to the needs of our tenants.

I have also successfully created an alt using the same e-mail address as my main. The system didn't even blink. I'm guessing alt creation using a common e-mail address is about as much of a crap-shoot as using the Aristotle IDV to allow or deny access to parcels based on age verification. Yet another system that has to work absolutely right if LL has any hope of making this plan of theirs work.

I didn't get the text version of questions asked, would have made listening to the audio recordings a lot easier to understand. The First one is well orchestrated. The second poorly done, with one of the lindens constantly crashing and the other answering questions without stating what the question is.

https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/03/25/follow-up-adult-content-changes they are located at the bottom of the page. Once again thank you Lord Sullivan for directing me there.

With regards to the original "2-4%" figure put out by the Lindens: It was the original assertion made in one of the original discussion threads JD Linden (I believe) created here. Unfortunately, the original set of threads has been recently deleted, so there is no longer any record of any of those discussions having happened.

With regards to all of the other requests for source links: Again, the original discussion threads have been recently wiped off the forums, with many of the original assertions, assumptions, and premises made by the Lindens in justifying their reasons for doing this, and with the nearly 20,000 replies made by those questioning, challenging, or praising those claims.

The blogs are horribly one-sided, and - as we've already seen - subject to frequent edits and removals, so they cannot be trusted as reliable sources. Apparently, the forums are no less susceptible to revisionist actions. So, what have we got that we can reliably source?

That post is just so funny and well written i just have to quote it here. Doesn't this sort of blow a hole in Aristotle verification?

I can see Couldbe's point. Having no-transfer stuff in your inventory (and I'd say at least 75% of the content in the average inventory is no-transfer) makes it impossible to keep all the stuff you paid for if you decide to change avatars. If alts could be linked to the main in the manner Argent suggested, then it would be a trivial matter to be able to pass even no-transfer items between one's own avatars on the same account. In fact, if every avatar so linked could share the same inventory pool, it would significantly decrease the load on the asset servers, and would therefore significantly reduce lag grid-wide.

It's certainly worth consideration. And since everyone is essentially being driven to age verification anyways, this is the best time to make that sort of thing happen.

Many of the Europeans here on this thread have already verified so this is not USA/Canada specific. And yes, PIOF will be enough.

Has spent real $$$ or Aristotle