Something to be Said about Gorean Life

Okay guys, it comes down to this.

"I don't bother them, they don't bother me." Let them do their shit, and we'll do ours. If you don't like it, don't visit their sims. That's really all there is to it.

Countdown to another complaint topic....

But the problem with Goreans is that they think their RP extends to everyone in SL, even outside their domains. They have no concept of people outside their community not RPing. This is what annoys many non-Goreans.

The fact that a Gorean would come up to use and call us "girl" or whatever, just bothers most of us, the arrogance, lack of respect for the fact others are not in their unique RP is what exactly is not working.

They are not leaving us alone, why should we leave them alone?

Wow. I've actually never run into anything worse than being called "girl", and the one Gorean who did it apologised when I said I wasn't a sub.

There is a whole thread on this alone.

Hopefully the other person also THINKS. Just because *some* people in any given online hangout are loonies doesn't mean you have to be responsible for the ones in your area.

I have been in an RP experience that really shook me up iRL (this wasn't SL, but irrelevant). The result? Now I shun those activities with intense prejudice. Not for me, nuh-uh. I have a dislike for anyone who practices it, both as the perpetrator and the victim. But I know better than to get high and mighty and declare that they're all degenerates and I shouldn't have to deal with them. Yes, things got a little too real there. But all it did was polarize me to decide I tried something, and didn't like it.

If I'm all upset that every day I log in to SL, go naked into whatever mature sim these things happen in, and end up getting bent over a hitching post and gang-raped, then all I have to do is STOP logging in to SL and coming back for sloppy N+1 rounds. How is my dissatisfaction the fault of everyone else when *I* keep letting it happen?

What you don't understand is what you fear.
Maybe some of you need a proper education, and to learn how to think for yourselves.

You claim to be educated in Gor? Expound this please.

Intolerence. Not acceptable.
Unless a Gorean comes over to your house and knocks on the door like some Jehovahs witness, and drags your girlfriend out and stuffs her in a cage on some silvership and carts her off, then theres no problem.
If the Goreans come to your PG sim and parade a bunch of topless chained girls down Main street, call the Linden police on them.
This is SL, a fantasy realm where your allowed to be what you want to be, do what you want to do.
As long as it doesnt interfere with the freedoms of others to do their thing, or disturb the
peaceful tranquility of someone else game, its pretty much open season to be imaginative and creative. That said, If that creative outlet happens to be a tad dark and ominous, so be it.
Your ten bucks a month.
So what about these Goreans?
Q: Are there real life Goreans?
Sure, just as there are trekki's claiming to be RL klingons.
Claiming to be something doesnt make you so.
Especially claiming to be a fictional charector out of a sci-fi novel.
Q: Are there so called Goreans trying to talk women into real life relationships?
Yes.
'Dr Phil' trained masters using sweet talk and telling girls everything they want to hear to
smokescreen em into webcamming. But thats not limited to gor, you find those guys at any dance club you'll ever visit.
Q: Are there psychologically damaged individuals playing this scenerio,
or control freaks trying to make their inadequecies go away by pushing people around from behind the buffed badass avatars they've whipped up?
Absolutely. Its attractive to those types.
But these are not the serious roleplayers of the Gorean scenerio.
Now just because there are some damaged people playing Gor, does this mean the sane individual shouldnt be allowed to enjoy roleplaying the scenerio?
Overall, most people playing the Gorean scenerio know the difference between reality and fantasy.
Q: Why do these 'Goreans' do the things they do?
Because what may be morally wrong on Earth, on Gor its simply the way things are.
They dont know any difference.
Gor is stilted technologically by an advanced alien insectoid race known as the 'Priest kings' who physically moved the planet of Gor into Earths solar system and placed it in Earths orbit on the far side of the sun. It was then populated thousands of years ago by abducted earthlings from all over the world and from many cultures. So you will indeed find decendants of eskimoes, Viking types, and American indians on Gor.
Gor is caste based. Haves and have nots.
And below the rungs of the caste ladder are the slaves.
The same people who would have been pushing huge stone blocks up the ramps to build the pyramids.
Gor is civilised but harsh.

Q: Are there children on Gor?
Of course, its a populated planet. Are they used and abused? Of course not, why should they be? Goreans love their children.
Are there children born into slavery? Yes.
Are those children born into slavery used and abused? What would be the point?
They are children. They will be trained in the ways of the kajiri, and will become
experts at washing the occasional dish. Once reaching adulthood, they will be sold.

Goreans believe that the male of the species is the natural dominent.
Gor is indeed a mans world. A feminists nightmare.
This is not to say freewomen are treated poorely. Men do stand when a woman enters the room out of respect. And tho Gorean freewomen do often wear veils and are required to wear modest clothing, a woman who follows the rules dictated to her by society has little to worry about.
She can be of high caste, hold high positions, even rule a city.
Of course, Gorean freemen know how to remind a woman of her place in the grand scheme of things.
Check out this excerpt from the books:

"in spite of the fact that she is free and usually much loved.
According to the Gorean way of looking at things a taste of the slave ring
is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women,
even the exalted free woman.
Thus when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome even
a free Companion may find herself at the foot of the couch looking
forward to a pleasant night on the stones, stripped,
with neither mat nor blanket,
chained to the slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl.
It is the Gorean way of reminding her,
should she need to be reminded, that she, too, is a woman,
and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men.
Should she be tempted to forget this basic fact of Gorean life
the slave ring set in the bottom of each Gorean couch is there
to refresh her memory. Gor is a mans world."

Priest-Kings of Gor page 67

What of these instances of rape and brutality weve been hearing about?
There is rape. Its called "the whip of the furs" and is used as a disciplinary action on slaves.
But rape and brutality as a rule is not dished out for the pleasure of the abuser.
Another quote:

"Perhaps it should only be added that the Gorean master,
though often strict, is seldom cruel.
The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one
She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty,
for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases
is largely absent from Gor.
This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys,
or fails to please her master."

Priest-Kings of Gor page 51

Much of this negative spin comes from the fact that some newcomers first encounters
with Goreans are with players who dont know what they are doing.
Just as in kids playing cowboys and indians dont know the difference between
an Apache and a Sioux, and all they know is shootouts and scalpings.
They take the basic fun factor of the roleplay and run with it,
and dispense with the subtle nuances that make it a richer experience.
And as far as idiots with swords coming to your sim, getting pushy, and espousing the ways of Gor, tell em to go home. Just like you would to any other nuisance.
Your ten bucks a month as well.

Yes, Gor is a dark side to the shiny, happy side of SL.
And just as there are people who prefer horror movies to fluffy Jennifer Aniston flicks,
(maybe the same thing) there are those who would rather be axe wielding slavers than furries.

Q: Are there Earth women being kidnapped, terrorized, dragged to an alien planet and forced into servitude to a race of elitest, warrior men, who speak of things like honor,
truth, and defending ones homestone? Yes indeed. But only in the imaginations of the readers and players. And those people, whether acting as freepersons or slaves,
are choosing to do so of their own free will.

and how annoying that thread ended up being spaced.

The concept of slaves as beasts is one that permeates throughout the Gorean novels. Norman demonstrates that the complexities of slaves as animals are twofold- not only are they beasts in the legal sense, but also biologically. While some of Norman's examples can only be upheld in the books, or within a society with the same structure as the fictional Gorean one, the emotional and psychological aspects of the analogy can be found here in our society within a Master/slave relationship.

The most obvious reference to slaves being beasts in a legal sense comes from a quote in Explorers of Gor:

"In the eyes of Gorean law you are an animal. You have no name in your own right. You may be collared and leashed. You may be bought and sold, whipped, treated as the master pleases, disposed of as he sees fit. You have no rights whatsoever. Legally you have no more status than a tarsk or vulo. Legally, literally, you are an animal."
Explorers of Gor, page 316
As opposed to Western civilization on Earth, where the laws often give inherent freedoms to all citizens, the slave under Gorean laws had no rights. She could not vote, could not free herself, nor did she have any caste or social standing once enslaved. Her name changed with the whim of the Master, or they might not be bothered to name her if she was going to be sold soon. They were sold as property, with the slave not retaining the right to choose who their next owner would be. Some slaves were kept in a more conscious state of animalistic slavery, demonstrated by the she-quadrupleds found in Savages of Gor who were kept corralled in herds, and lost the privilege to speak until commanded otherwise.

Slaves could not have their own possessions. She did not own jewelry or clothes of her own; any she might be permitted to wear still belonged to the Master and the privilege could be revoked at any time. In Nomads of Gor, this is explained clearly:
"Surely you are aware," said Saphrar, "that a slave cannot own property --- any more than a kaiila, a tharlarion or sleen."
Nomads of Gor, page 132

Slaves relied on their owners for food, shelter, medical care, and clothing. They were transported in cages, or harnessed to pull wagons, farm equipment, or sleds. They might be examined before a sale as thoroughly as a man might select a horse or cow, the slave standing silently while the man asked the current owner questions on temperament, medical history, past training. Even such topics of their breeding became common knowledge. Some slaves were bred simply for one characteristic or trait, their pedigrees intact and lineage tracked, similar to domestic animals here in modern day society.

One of the fundamental differences with humans and other species of animals is the ability to control their reproduction. Slaves no longer have the right to choose whether to have children, and the ability to select her own partner(s) is controlled by her owners. They were at times bred, hooded so their mate's identity was unknown, or they were administered slave wine as a birth control device by the owner's command, not the slave's preference.

Slaves were branded as cattle are on Earth. A common ornamentation for the Tuchuk girls was a tiny gold ring in the nose, similar to a bosk ring. In fact, the methods used for these procedures might seem uncaring or harsh to the readers, but on Gor they were an accepted practice to mark or decorate beasts. Slaves could be leashed, or chained in a coffle, or presented in auctions and performing slave paces, similar to any dog or horse show.
With the social structure of Gor being based on nonconsensual slavery, the legal standpoint of slaves differs a great deal from Earth. In a Western culture here, all adults are given certain rights that are inherent, such as the ability to vote, the right not to be sold, free choice to pursue happiness. The legal system does not support slavery, and such practices would not be upheld in a court of law.

However, the psychological effects of treating a slave as a beast can exist on Earth as deeply as they do on Gor. Much of the Gorean practices were as much to remind the girl of her status and nature as they were practical. In Fighting Slave of Gor, it is said:

"Indeed, the leash, not uncommonly, can cause a woman to sexually blossom. This is presumably a function of such things as its actual restraint, which is quite real; its message to her that she is an animal, a slave; and its making clear to her, by a device, such as a bracelet, a brand or collar, what is the order of nature, who it is who controls her and who it is whom she must obey, who is the slave and who is the master."
Fighting Slave of Gor, page 366Other devices can be used to remind the girl of her place: removing her ability to speak through the use of a gag can carry an impact on the slave. Without speech, she is forced to rely solely on eye contact and body movements. She cannot argue, and can only let her emotions be heard through muffled unintelligible noises. As a result, her body becomes her sole means of expression, her movements more soulful. Often, the effect of a gag carries with her even once it is removed; in fact, it takes a while for her to speak afterwards.

Owners may often have a tighter control over diet or exercise to maintain his property in its peak condition, a practice commonly used by domestic pet owners. Being caged, leashed, eating from a dish on the floor all carry the reminder of her helplessness and her inequality to men. While some may view these practices as being humiliating or degrading, it can be a beautiful practice that strips the slave of false pride, and teaches her humility. As humans, we may experience shame and value privacy. Beasts are not allowed such luxuries, nor allowed to hide behind these inhibitions.

They are comfortable without clothes for false modesty, and find a certain freedom in being in their natural state. Even topics such as their virginity, menstruation or sexual usage, can be discussed if the owners choose to, when normally society would allow the girl to have some privacy. That privacy which she once had is now subject to her Master's whim. A slave often may not be allowed the privilege to shut doors in the home, to remind her that privacy is not a right she has, but granted by the Master.

The books often speak about accepting the natural state of humans and their environment, as opposed to the artificiality of today's modern society. This is hardly the first time an author has used society and civilization to inhibit man's tendencies: Lord of the Flies by William Golding gave a striking counterexample of man's animalistic instincts rising to the surface in the absence of certain social structures. But whereas Golding's examples of the same phenomenon deal with a darker nature, Norman's focus is more on living naturally, and accepting certain biological truths without the artificial constraints of society.

These biological impulses can not be controlled easily, any more than animal instincts can. The response a woman has to a man is such an impulse, the more vulnerable she is to her own lust, and the more primal she becomes. She responses without thinking to fear, to pain avoidance, her own need to instinctively survive. These animalistic behaviors can be used as a training tool, and can be used even against her own will, freeing the inhibitions that society has placed on her. As humans, we display ourselves to attract mates as animals do. Some girls can be trained to orgasm on voice command, even when she fights hard not to. Other behaviors can be trained to obey hand signals.
There is simplicity to living as a beast. They have transcended society's inhibitions to find a further freedom, and just are what they naturally are without the conflict between morals and instinct. Norman mentions this internal conflict in Explorers of Gor:

"On Earth, as I understand it," I said, "your delicious and vulnerable animality, your feminine animality, the most basic and deepest female of you, helpless and needful, was, as a matter of cultural policy, consistently suppressed and frustrated."
Explorers of Gor, page 319

But above all else, humans are more complex than many other species of animals. We demonstrate traits associated with animals: be it the loyal devotion of a dog, cunning of a fox, barely restrained spirit of an untamed horse, or sheer raw lust of a bitch in heat. Humans are capable of rational thought and personal accountability for their actions, thus separating themselves from other animals. In slaves, that accountability exists in their obedience. It is that blend of human and bestial qualities that deepen our existence as human beasts.

Can't you edit it?

I just wanted to point out that the second most popular poll choice reads "no rape of any kind real or imagend is wrong"

You losers, learn to read

Arrrgh.. my plans foiled.. i wanted that little fact left out lol. Maybe the OP got it wrong, I was laughing so much couple of hours ago. xD

If you'll note, I contributed to it. I was speaking about /my/ experiences, which are apparently much more limited than yours.

D/s and Gor, or D/s and Femdom, or Gor and FemDom have common roots.

They're all part of the bigger picture called BDSM (or BDSM is a part of them, depends on one's point of view).

But in themselves they're completely seperate lifestyles, but because of the common roots/grounds some things will flow from one to the others and vice versa.

But Gor is in No Way part of D/s, as is D/s is No Way part of Gor.
Subsitute FemDom, S/M, age-play,rape-play or X for either Gor or D/s in the above sentence, then I hope it becomes clearer.

You've totally got this wrong.

Substitute D/s with BDSM and you might have it right.

Also age-play is not part of this. It's some other form of ls.

Why do you do this? Why do you feel a need to bring this subject up in nearly every thread you post in? It's some kind of obsession with you?

Read what I was quoting:



Why do you post without reading? Tell me where age-play fits in any of these lifestyles.

Gor is one type of BDSM, its a particular type of themed BDSM based on a series of science-fiction novels.

BDSM doesn't have any necessary link to concepts of male superiority or rape by men, there are huge numbers of male subbies in BDSM and women owning other women is also very common.

Ahh! I hadn't caught that. You're right. But ok in my defense, it's after midnight and I should be in bed by now. heh

EDIT: Which is exactly what I'm going to do before I insert my other foot in my mouth. niiiigght.

Over the last fifteen years I've participated in several group conversations with the philosopher John Frederick Lange at science fiction conventions and academic conferences. He is, without exception, contemptuous of those who would "play" the ideas, values, rituals, and behavior of Goreans in online worlds and chatrooms. They are, he told us in a Philadelphia convention in 2001, "pious pretenders and parasites, weak fantasists who mistake anonymity for liberation."

I kind of agree with Lange's sentiments. Frankly, those in this thread who argue that it's all consensual and therefore OK are missing the point. There is no consensus in Lange's alternative world of sexuality and survival. There is only what is, the natural hierarchy that "really" exists among men and women, and there are those who have the strength and maturity to accept it, as harsh as it may seem - and those who don't. A Gorean who makes the argument about "consensus" is - by definition - not a Gorean.

Those who call themselves Gorean and yet restrict themselves to "virtual play" in Second Life and other anonymous and "easy" environments aren't really Goreans. They're pretenders who have taken a stoic philosophy and a life of discipline, and twisted it toward their own shallow gratification.

Understand - these aren't my opinions, these are Lange's, a.k.a. John Norman. Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about Goreanism and I find Lange to be a rather sad and silly man who tries to wears shoes four sizes to big for him. But in this case, he has a point.

Unless you're willing to buff yourself up to look like a character in a Frank Frazetta painting - or the Governor of California back when he was Conan the Barbarian - and walk around the streets of some midwestern American city like Des Moines or Preoria leading a buxom wench by a chain, you're not a Gorean. You're a pretender with your own agenda.

Unless you're willing to openly abide by the ancient Roman courtship system, the custodia pudicitiae, on which Lange based his Gorean gender rituals - in real life, and take the consequences that our society might visit on you - you're a poseur. And Goreans - the real ones that Lange wrote about - would hold you in the greatest contempt of all: They would ignore you.

By definition, Goreans would reject anyone who "played" in Second Life because the role-playing of a double-life itself does not abide by the open stoicism of Gorean philosophy. And that was the point that Lange made to us five years ago in Philadelphia.

Who are you do decide what is sick and what is not?

I sometimes go to jessie on sl pull out a gun and shoot people and enjoy it, I can play Grand theft auto vice city and take great enjoyment chasing down pedestrians, In SL I've nuked entire sims for fun (with owners consent) and i've roleplayed a sick nasty depraved vampire, i've watched films and said YES! when the bad guy gets a bullet through the head, i've found it funny when the city blows up, and wow part of me wishes we had more non feel good endings to films where things go wrong and the hero doesn't always win (it seems to be more a symptom of Western movies, asian games/films have alot of tragedy and personally the ability to make me feel sad or cry at the end of a movie is as moving and effective as making me laugh)

I would not do that in real life, in real life I look after my neighbours, I am 24/7 carer of my wife who has leukeamia (I saw many "upstanding" "religious" husbands and wifes who as soon as they found out there partner had cancer they ran off and left them) I am very close to my mother who is more a friend than a parent and I love animals.

There is two very clearly definded sides to me online
Firstly the fantasy, roleplay, killer, god, destroyer, creator, big red shiny button presser, sick twisted naughty person.
Secondly there is the real me who is friends, honest and genuine, a Master, lover and carer.

Non consensual sex is by a leading female magazine one of the most popular female fantasies it may not be politically correct but it is true, and all those women who have that "sick fantasy" I doubt would ever want it real.

I'll tell you the real problems are

1)Any religion which tells you to deny your desires (perfect example is the wonderful catholic priests and the cover up of there molesting of alter boys, you deny your urges, they come out elsewhere) anyone who can't accept themselves there needs and desires and explore them in a SAFE, ADULT and mature setting is asking for problems. because your concious and subconcious will find an outlet. And before you say it im not saying if you have a desire to rape or try non consensual acts to go out and try them, there is roleplay and fantasy and all manner of ways to safely try out these desires.

2)Anyone who can't see the clearly defined differences between reality and fiction, whether it be roleplay or books or films or games, if your Mind can't make that definition then your the kind of person who watches matrix and then goes shoot up a school, your the kind of person who plays Unreal tournament then goes out buys a sniper rifle and "headshots", your the kind of person society needs to watch/retrain, because why should the rest of us loose out on healthy explorations into these desires? 99.9% of us can play violent pc games for 12 years of our life without going out and harming a soul, 99.9% of us are safe, society needs to stop penalizing us and start educating them.

3)Blaming of objects, we see it all the time, a boy picks up a gun and shoots his class mates, we blame marylin manson, we blame computer games, not once does someone say "hey maybe if Daddy hadn't taught him to fire a gun at 12" "Hey maybe if Daddy and Mommy weren't too busy working to take part in there growing up childs life and teach them reality from fantasy" we are animals, we rise above it but we can also drop below, its so easy to not blame ourselves, but instead to sue a games company, a record label, or film company, because simply if we look at ourselves at the human race and stop making excuses for every wrong done, we realise that every one of us is capable of these things, its our own choice.

D/s means a Dominant and a submission by there very definition it is the core of Gor some are dominant some are submissive, it is that simple. or to put it even simpler Master Mistress = Dominant personalt/person/architype submissive = slave/sub/pet submissive personality, the only people who try to define goreans outside of D/s is Goreans because they don't like to be classed as a book created offshoot. And although there is many different types of Dominant from Master to Mistress to Dom Domme and there is Many different forms of submission from submissive to slave to pet, to pony play, it ALL falls under the general heading of D/s

It shows you true lack of knowledge about things.

People that can be highly secure and adept in RL can find pleasure in their fantasy being NOT like they are in RL.

Often, a subs have high sense of control and self-awareness; it takes a lot to give that up.

The "mentally insecure and inept" will not last long enough as a sub
(let alone a Gor slave) because of the demands it can take.

If John Norman wants to call Gorean roleplayers fakes, ummmm...ok.
If he somehow believes his sci-fi creations can exist in our modern society, ummmm...ok.
"pious pretenders and parasites, weak fantasists who mistake anonymity for liberation."??
Suuure, I guess so. And the notion that men are the dominent of the species may indeed hold true, but... I dont think our current society here in the west is prepared to trash the vast accomplishments women have made over the past hundred years in their attempt at reaching equal ground with men. Equality has been a long hard road for our precious women. And if Norman has a problem with this, well fuck him and the pretentious tarn he rode in on.