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Becoming a Slave

Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
06-24-2007 14:17
From: Har Fairweather
/me applauds. [Wishes there were more such.]

Of course, sexual fantasies are a whole other subject from RL. There, I'd say it is whatever rings your chimes, especially in a case like SL, where you can log out at any time and never return, if you choose.



Thank you Har :) Having re-read my posting, I think it is the basic contradiction in terms that you have pointed out which was striking me. The OP was wanting to become a slave - but by definition a slave is someone in bonded servitude not of their own free will. At best, she can only want to play act being a slave. These fora keep returning to the subject that whatever consenting adults do in private is their concern and no one else's - but abdicating responsibility for one's own actions is not an adult thing to do.
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Deira :)
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Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
06-24-2007 14:27
From: Alex Fitzsimmons
You should of course do what's right for you; I for one never suggested otherwise.

It would be nice if you were willing to respect my decision and that of those like me in the same way that I respect your decision and that of those like you, but that clearly isn't going to happen, and happily, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it ANY more than I will over The Person Formerly Known as Dyerbrook's opinions of me.


Just had to read back down the thread to get a view on your perspective Alex and of course I am willing to respect your decision! I can very well understand the attraction of wanting to be free of responsibility - but I believe you cannot have freedom without responsibility - but I will defend with my life your right to disagree and state your disagreement.
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Deira :)
Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!.
Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
06-24-2007 14:30
From: Deira Llanfair
Thank you Har :) Having re-read my posting, I think it is the basic contradiction in terms that you have ponted out which was striking me. The OP was wanting to become a slave - but by definition a slave is someone in bonded servitude not of their own free will. At best she can only want to play act being a slave. These fora keep returning to the subject that whatever consenting adults do in private is their concern and no one else's - but abdicating responsibility for one's own actions is not an adult thing to do.


Sometimes I think the old words and distinctions are wiser than people give them credit for - especially in the realm of human passions and desires, and especially sexuality. I suspect things have not changed all that much there in the last 10,000 years or so...

ATM I am thinking of the traditional and well-established difference between rape and ravishment, which I think applies to this "slave" fantasy. Rape is where a man forces a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to. It is criminal. Ravishment is where a man forces a woman to have sex when she DOES want to. That is - L'AMOUR! Frankly, I think much of this BDSM and/or "slave" controversy hinges on this very important distinctiion.
Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
06-24-2007 19:37
From: Barrowness Beaumont
lmao Bil!!

Don't panic Vanilla can definitely be kinky ;)

*waves at Bil*


Vanilla after all can be served with any number of condiments; complements any taste. Yum.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
06-24-2007 19:52
From: Deira Llanfair
Just had to read back down the thread to get a view on your perspective Alex and of course I am willing to respect your decision! I can very well understand the attraction of wanting to be free of responsibility - but I believe you cannot have freedom without responsibility - but I will defend with my life your right to disagree and state your disagreement.


Mind you, it's not quite the same thing as being free of ALL responsibility.

Think of it like this: in a company, a subordinate has responsibilities that may largely revolve around carrying out the orders of his or her boss. Likewise, in a chain of command, a low-ranking soldier has responsibilities that, once again, mostly revolve around carrying out orders. They're still responsibilities, but the role itself is one of Indian rather than Chief.

Believe it or not, there are those of us who just function better serving than we do trying to take the lead. We may be CAPABLE of the latter, but we at least don't find it pleasant.

I'm not sure why it panics people so much when that kind of very definitely unequal dynamic is extended into personal and, yes, sexual relationships. Fear of the unknown, I suppose.
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
06-24-2007 20:54
I am still confused by what makes a slave in Second Life and I am not referring to First Life as that has nothing to do with this thread. Does a SL slave come equipped with a contract and a set of job expectations? If so the meaning of a SL slave means nothing. A slave is a slave.

How can a slave make demands?
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"If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intent of doing you good, you should run for your life." - Henry David Thoreau
Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
06-24-2007 21:26
From: Susie Boffin
I am still confused by what makes a slave in Second Life and I am not referring to First Life as that has nothing to do with this thread. Does a SL slave come equipped with a contract and a set of job expectations? If so the meaning of a SL slave means nothing. A slave is a slave.

How can a slave make demands?


Dropped you an IM in-world about it. If you're really serious about wanting to know more, an in-person discussion is probably a better way to go about it.
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"Whatever the astronomers finally decide, I think Xena should be considered the enemy planet." - io Kukalcan
bilbo99 Emu
Garrett's No.1 fan
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,468
06-25-2007 04:02
From: Har Fairweather

ATM I am thinking of the traditional and well-established difference between rape and ravishment, which I think applies to this "slave" fantasy. Rape is where a man forces a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to. It is criminal. Ravishment is where a man forces a woman to have sex when she DOES want to. That is - L'AMOUR! Frankly, I think much of this BDSM and/or "slave" controversy hinges on this very important distinctiion.



From: Susie Boffin
I am still confused by what makes a slave in Second Life and I am not referring to First Life as that has nothing to do with this thread. Does a SL slave come equipped with a contract and a set of job expectations? If so the meaning of a SL slave means nothing. A slave is a slave.

How can a slave make demands?


Har, I am in agreement with you and believe this goes most of the way to answer Susie.
As long as in SL a 'slave' has the 'logout' function, the RL non-consensual aspect of slavery simply does not exist.

The slave will always have this power to pull out and/or desert the role. This will undermine and/or defeat some and/or all the work that has gone to build the relationship. The effort is lost. Therefore there must be an understanding of how much the slave will tolerate.

Susie, you start by acknowledging a First Life slave isn't what we're talking about here. An SL slave does not mean nothing but we're talking of a vulnerable role play that depends on two consenting adults. A contract and job expectations is mebbe going a little over the top but there must be an understanding to protect the future?

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I've spent an interesting morning catching up with this thread. I have a suggestion for Diera and Eveline:

When I visit my RL long-distance fiancee we go to the supermarket. She asks me what I'd like for tea. I say I don't mind .. because I really don't. I can eat anything. I have few preferences or dislikes. Anyway, she takes great exception to this and hates the fact that I'm virtually sub-bing to her, meekly pushing the trolley and carrying the bags. I'm happy with it but she isn't.

Now, in this instance, we don't have the full D/S relationship but in my personal decision to let fiancee take control of the decisions, isn't this the basic action of the sub?

BTW Diera, your quote didn't work due to no closing square bracket.

Bekah, thankyou for your excellent posts :)
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Jumpman Lane
JUMPY!!!
Join date: 7 May 2007
Posts: 2,114
06-25-2007 04:08
From: Brenda Connolly
I "heard" of a place, Mistress Knows Best. It's a BDSM Store, but I "heard" they have a pretty good classified wall. Or you could go to Hard Alley and stand about for a few minutes.

Not to pry, but Not wanting to go through a lot of training does not seem to be a good quality for a potential slave.

them clowns down in hard alley are nothing but punks! i go down there just to get laffs!
i f any of ya become any of those clown's slaves you gonna hear a Jumpy Lane laugh track in the background while bull shizz itin
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Ya girlfriend says she loves meh! But it's just the jewlreh! Multicolored carots got ya girlfriend kinda curious!
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
06-25-2007 04:36
From: Susie Boffin
I am still confused by what makes a slave in Second Life and I am not referring to First Life as that has nothing to do with this thread. Does a SL slave come equipped with a contract and a set of job expectations? If so the meaning of a SL slave means nothing. A slave is a slave.

How can a slave make demands?



People often for political correctness downplay the "sex" part about sex slaves.

Often, part of the concept is also Sexual freedom through emotional bondage (and physical bondage as a representation, pleassure from pain, etc depending on the subbie)

Of course when you speak of the sexual aspect mainly look at the whole thing as dirty, but it also explains part of the appeal that on the surface if its not brought up people dont "get"

It also explains how a slave can make demands - since "i have a headache" is more useful in a sexual relationship ;)

I think a SL slave is only a slave as long as they wish to be a slave, or feel they are a slave - so how much it means is entirely in the mind of that particular slave. Of course oftentimes how much of a "Master" any particular Dom/Domme is, gets defined by the slave as well.

I think Sting said it well :)
----------------------------------
You consider me the young apprentice
Caught between the Scylla and Charybdis
Hypnotized by you if I should linger
Staring at the ring around your finger
I have only come here seeking knowledge
Things they would not teach me of in college
I can see the destiny you sold
Turned into a shining band of gold

I'll be wrapped around your finger
I'll be wrapped around your finger

Mephistopheles is not your name
But I know what you're up to just the same
I will listen hard to your tuition
And you will see it come to it's fruition

I'll be wrapped around your finger
I'll be wrapped around your finger

Devil and the deep blue sea behind me
Vanish in the air, you'll never find me
I will turn your face to alabaster
Then you'll find your servant is your master

You'll be wrapped around my finger
You'll be wrapped around my finger
You'll be wrapped around my finger


----------------------
Of course many "Slaves" just like the collar, the harnesses, the silks, etc, as fashion accessories and are about as submissive as the typical rapid rotweiler.
Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
06-25-2007 05:01
From: bilbo99 Emu

BTW Diera, your quote didn't work due to no closing square bracket.

Bekah, thankyou for your excellent posts :)


I know! Sorry I can't type or spell very well - maybe I need a slave (read secretary) to do it for me. ;)

I would have just seen your supermarket thing as a willingness to delegate certain things to your fiancee. The art of delegation is a good one for a manager to develop.
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Deira :)
Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!.
Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
06-25-2007 05:09
From: Har Fairweather
Sometimes I think the old words and distinctions are wiser than people give them credit for - especially in the realm of human passions and desires, and especially sexuality. I suspect things have not changed all that much there in the last 10,000 years or so...

ATM I am thinking of the traditional and well-established difference between rape and ravishment, which I think applies to this "slave" fantasy. Rape is where a man forces a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to. It is criminal. Ravishment is where a man forces a woman to have sex when she DOES want to. That is - L'AMOUR! Frankly, I think much of this BDSM and/or "slave" controversy hinges on this very important distinctiion.



*...and the maiden cried "Then frugal me, frugal me!" and she put up a token resistance...*

Sorry - old joke - couldn't resist.
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Deira :)
Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!.
Don Mill
Bon vivant wannabe
Join date: 6 Jul 2006
Posts: 92
06-25-2007 06:09
From: Deira Llanfair
...but abdicating responsibility for one's own actions is not an adult thing to do.


Says who?

I am amazed at how single minded people can be. Obviously, you don't understand what power exchange relationships are about, so instead of accepting they exist and that there is people to whom the lifestyle fulfills their needs, you treat them as children.

It seems to me that growing up is a path more than one of us should take.
Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
06-25-2007 06:24
From: Don Mill
Says who?

I am amazed at how single minded people can be. Obviously, you don't understand what power exchange relationships are about, so instead of accepting they exist and that there is people to whom the lifestyle fulfills their needs, you treat them as children.

It seems to me that growing up is a path more than one of us should take.



I am sorry Don, but it is reasonable to assume that you are sitting behind your computer and in control of your keyboard and mouse - barring extreme circumstances - you are in control of your PC and are therefore responsible for your actions in SL.

Even if you leave the keyboard and your kid brother takes control of your avatar unknown to you - you are still responsible. My comment has nothing to do with power exchange relationships at all.
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Deira :)
Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!.
Sonia Nagy
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 364
06-25-2007 14:27
From: Broken Xeno
Is it possible to own someone and truly love them? You could love them like a possession, or perhaps like a pet, but do you truly love them as a person?

Yes, you can truly love them as a person. Thank-you for asking.
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Sonia Nagy
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 364
06-25-2007 14:30
From: Eveline Nixdorf

Here's another aspect to the whole question. I've known several people involved in d/s now who appear to enjoy rough treatment and domination. They've been virtually abused, caged - the lot. Makes them happy? They don't leave...

Yet, and I've seen this a couple of times - these same people tell me that they really yearn for tender love, and wish they could have that as well. I've heard some really brutal stories about the stuff these people roleplay... yet another part of them - apparently quite unfulfilled by their bdsm roleplay - goes quite unsatisfied. Any more insights to share?


It is possible to have both in the same relationship.
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Sonia Nagy
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 364
06-25-2007 14:35
From: Alex Fitzsimmons
Mind you, it's not quite the same thing as being free of ALL responsibility.

Think of it like this: in a company, a subordinate has responsibilities that may largely revolve around carrying out the orders of his or her boss. Likewise, in a chain of command, a low-ranking soldier has responsibilities that, once again, mostly revolve around carrying out orders. They're still responsibilities, but the role itself is one of Indian rather than Chief.

Believe it or not, there are those of us who just function better serving than we do trying to take the lead. We may be CAPABLE of the latter, but we at least don't find it pleasant.

I'm not sure why it panics people so much when that kind of very definitely unequal dynamic is extended into personal and, yes, sexual relationships. Fear of the unknown, I suppose.


Good. Finally someone said it. Yes, there are still responsibilities in being a sub/slave/etc.

---
Methinks it would have been a better road to travel, if I had combined all three entries into one post. One of these days I will acquire the knowledge required.
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Ivory Upshaw
Registered User
Join date: 7 May 2007
Posts: 11
06-25-2007 18:26
I am new to BDSM, I only engage in it in SL. I made a conscious decision to try being a sub. I am not sub at all in RL, and I felt this was a good way to explore a side of myself that I was vaguely aware of, but not in touch with.

I have thoroughly enjoyed my journey as a sub, so much so that I am now a Pet. I wear a collar part time with an experienced Dom, and we are making much progress.

What surprised me the most, was that something I saw as restricting, my collar, has actually given me more freedom then I could ever imagine. By trusting my master to ensure my safety, security and happiness, I can focus on learning more about myself, and maintaining his happiness. Quite frankly, making him happy, makes me happy - happier than I thought possible.

I am not a slave - not at all. I have independence from my master, and some freedoms in areas many pets do not. Each D/s relationship is individual, and different as the people in them.
Tasrill Sieyes
Registered User
Join date: 6 Nov 2005
Posts: 124
06-25-2007 23:51
Well jsut a little comment to thoses saying how great/horrible it is to be a slave/sub to somone where excatly do us switches fit in. We flip between the rolls. We exchange power freely in both directions. And in our relationships we both know we are responsiable to make the other happy. Not all switch relationships involve 'equal' power exchange but they also are not to the extream that the 'ideal' d/s relationship that is being preached is either. Do we just 'not get' what bdsm is suposed to be? *chuckes*
Suzy Hazlehurst
Offensive Broad
Join date: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 323
06-26-2007 00:33
From: Tasrill Sieyes
Do we just 'not get' what bdsm is suposed to be? *chuckes*


No. I'm afraid we'll have to suspend you from the force pending inquiries into your loyalty to the one twue BDSM. Turn in your collar and whip right now please. *lol*
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Ace Albion
Registered User
Join date: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 866
06-26-2007 00:50
It helps to remember that there is no secret mystery to it.
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bilbo99 Emu
Garrett's No.1 fan
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,468
06-26-2007 00:50
From: Deira Llanfair
I would have just seen your supermarket thing as a willingness to delegate certain things to your fiancee. The art of delegation is a good one for a manager to develop.

Mmm no I don't see it like that Diera. I see delegation as a form of getting someone else to do the work, yes good for a manager but isn't what I was getting at. I was 'giving' to my fiancee. Abdicating the decision, trying to please her, which I see as a excerpt of the sub role, albeit a miniature one.

And from that point I think there's a little bit of dom and sub in our everyday lives like this. I think the 'culture' as such is basically an extended and protracted version and I strongly think that exept for the out and out dictator or the full-time doormat, we all do it.

Ivory has just said it as others have said before, each relationship is different. The 'rules' are guides, not laws. It's up to the individual relationship if they want laws. Perhaps in the classic relationship they are indeed laws.

I'm generalising I know, and to many I'm probably diluting the 'culture' but I'm getting a distinct feeling that to many, the merest thought of calling the succumbing to a loved one's wish, submitting, seems an anathema.

The relinquishing of ones personal safety to a master/mistress might be seen as trying to return to the comfort of ones family I hope most of us enjoyed, and is that such bad thing?

I propose this whole thing is just a variation/accentuation/exageration even on what most of us do every day and it's only the dictators and the doormats who don't. An opinion and yes, I might be wrong. There, I'm subbing already.
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Sonia Nagy
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 364
06-26-2007 07:15
From: Tasrill Sieyes
Well jsut a little comment to thoses saying how great/horrible it is to be a slave/sub to somone where excatly do us switches fit in. We flip between the rolls. We exchange power freely in both directions. And in our relationships we both know we are responsiable to make the other happy. Not all switch relationships involve 'equal' power exchange but they also are not to the extream that the 'ideal' d/s relationship that is being preached is either. Do we just 'not get' what bdsm is suposed to be? *chuckes*


I suppose I should have mentioned earlier that I am a switch. The domme side is fading and only really comes out now when Mistress requests a switch (there was a time when that side was deeply explored - and in response to some comments: I was in control when I was domminating someone, did keep pushing the limits, but I didn't seem to cross the line, so do not know what would have happened then). Following her orders I domme her (somewhat rarely; oh and I will add that it doesn't then become a sub/slave that picks up a whip and whips her mistress, it becomes a Mistress domming a sub - and I am not exactly sadistic since I do not get pleasure from the pain itself, but pleasure from giving pleasure to the sub - by whipping/beating/etc. them bloody (with humiliation thrown in) - dang, starting to feel that side starting to take over again. Need to stop talking about it. do not really like when that side takes over).
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Don Mill
Bon vivant wannabe
Join date: 6 Jul 2006
Posts: 92
06-26-2007 07:20
From: Deira Llanfair
I am sorry Don, but it is reasonable to assume that you are sitting behind your computer and in control of your keyboard and mouse - barring extreme circumstances - you are in control of your PC and are therefore responsible for your actions in SL.

Even if you leave the keyboard and your kid brother takes control of your avatar unknown to you - you are still responsible. My comment has nothing to do with power exchange relationships at all.


Deira, I still feel you are not understanding the foundations of a power exchange relationship, and that is what we are talking about here. Maybe we are mixing up the power exchange relationship (D/s, M/s, etc) with SL/RL. The first one (PE) can happen (in different ways, granted) in either SL or RL; and yes, at some point the sub/slave made a concious decision to freely give power away in exchange for something else.

Finally, as Alex said, being a sub/slave doesn't take away all responsibility, is just a way to focus the actions on something specific.

I understand, and accept, people not grokking the idea of a power exchange relationship. What maddens me is the way some react to it. If you (general you) don't get it, that doesn't mean that the thing is bad/wrong/stupid/childish.

I don't understand people pursuing militar careers, nevertheless, I respect them for putting their lifes before mine.

Regards,

Don
Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
06-26-2007 07:24
From: bilbo99 Emu
Mmm no I don't see it like that Diera. I see delegation as a form of getting someone else to do the work, yes good for a manager but isn't what I was getting at. I was 'giving' to my fiancee. Abdicating the decision, trying to please her, which I see as a excerpt of the sub role, albeit a miniature one.

And from that point I think there's a little bit of dom and sub in our everyday lives like this. I think the 'culture' as such is basically an extended and protracted version and I strongly think that exept for the out and out dictator or the full-time doormat, we all do it.

.


Yes I see what you mean Bilbo - but you did say that food was not all that important to you. If you think of something that *is* important to you, would you "sub" on this as well? That's what a sub does - they give in on things that *are* important to them, not just the things that you don't mind about.

(Nice to find a man who isn't fussy over his food though:) You could order the groceries over the internet and get them delivered and then go out with your fiance and do something you both enjoy doing :) )
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Deira :)
Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!.
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