Becoming a Slave

Be aware that this post has the potential for bringing down European legislation on Linden Lab once more. Alex is adult and perfectly capable of speaking for herself. She has the right to her own opinion and the right to express it freely. As have we all. As long as the forum moderator accepts her post, she has no reason to amend it. To compel or even insist that she edits her post could be seen as a breach of her Human Rights under EU law. This law applies in all member states of the EU and is thus more widely applicable than the child pornography laws which apply only in Germany.

You should be advised to change this post to make it perfectly clear that you are speaking about a fantasy role-playing situation and in no way do you hold any improper, illegal authority over another human being in real life that would constitute a breach of their Human Rights. You may advise Alex as a friend to amend her posting but you may not compel her to.

As for the OP she has probably left SL by now, and as for LL, they may find it more convenient if they had chosen to open a European office in The Hague rather than Brighton!

All done making a fool of yourself now, Deira?

Oh, by the way: http://www.accidentconsult.com/articles/showarticles/Legal/1/UnderstandingLegalAdvice.html

Note especially the beginning of the third paragraph. Granted, I doubt anyone is going to hunt you down! But it's probably at least as relevant as what you posted.

No.

I don't think Deira was being serious...

Perhaps not, but if she wasn't, she should make her attempts at humor more clear. I've seen people make statements far less coherent and sensible than hers on these very forums while being absolutely, earnestly serious.

I can appreciate subtle humor, but if that was the goal, it was a little too subtle to work as humor.

The subject line starts...



...which is what leads me to believe that it was intended to be a smart ass remark.

Oh, I missed that entirely!

I never even read subject lines mid-thread. Well, perhaps it was meant to be a joke after all.

No I am perfectly serious - I can only make people aware of EU legislation. It is a serious matter. We are all of us subject to EC Directives and Linden Lab as they now have a presence in Europe must abide by the legislation. Human rights cases come to court all the time. Freedom of speech is a human right. Fantasy role play slavery is ok - real life slavery is illegal - you know that. We are all of us responsible for what we write here and a case of "my master told me what to write" would not stand up in court.

Alex - the being "subject to Brussels" title is an English joke though as we are considered to be Europhobic and often at odds with the EC Directives. A standing joke is that whereas the 10 Commandments has a couple of hundred words and the American Declaration of Human Rights a thousand or so - an EC Directive on the correct way to pack bananas has over 26000 words!

Have to get on now - love to all.

Erm, OK...

That may be an accurate explanation of the laws, but I somehow can't see that it has any serious context here. Angelique suggested Alex change it, perhaps even instructed her to, and Alex obliged for her own reasons.

In more accurate terms, alex was Told to Change it by her Mistress, and the reason she Obeyed Was because she had no other recourse but to Obey. Obedience is her Only Option when i Tell her to do something. She has Undertaken her Commitment seriously, and accepts that my Guidance is for the best.
As i stated when i Told her to Change, she is free to express Any Opinion she Chooses, My issue was Not with what she said, But How she chose to say it.

Some of you may not agree with our ways, But end result is, you can engage in Intelligent debate with alex without being treated to a tirade of Foul Language. I don't know about you but i consider that a Plus.

Angel.

I didn't realize this was a role playing forum.

I wasn't privy to the details, so I kept it general.

And, Ingrid, I don't think it's RPing for them.

There are no laws, EU or otherwise, that restrict a person from -choosing- to do what another person tells them to do. (There may be laws against the specific action, such as holding up a bank, but that's different.)

Saying it was a human rights abuse was the wackiest thing I've read on these forums in a while, and that's saying something.

Just try calling a human rights organization about that post and see what they say, after the laughing stops.

No, what you didn't realize is, We do this RL.


Thank you Ann, Quite correct.
This is the main reason i Do keep going on about the qualifications of those going into this lifestyle on line. They Don't Understand that What they do On Line CAN have RL repercussions.
It ISN'T a Game to me. It's my Life. and i KNOW the Damage that can be done by selfish, or careless hands EVEN in a Virtual Environment. Too many people have that adolescent "It's Only a game" idea about SL fixed in thier heads, and they forget they are Dealing with Real people, and Real Emotions. You can't afford to be casual about that. You may not be serious, But give a thought for a moment that the person on the Other keyboard MIGHT be.
That's why i always councel caution. That's why i always say Learn before you commit, and commit ONLY if you are certain it is right for you.


Hence my simple one word answer to her post, i gave it all the consideration it was worth.

Angel.

At any rate, Angelique can't actually FORCE Alex to sit down and start typing stuff; Alex basically has to agree to be told what to do. It's all still consensual activity between adults. We're not talking TRUE slavery here, where Angelique physically owns Alex and Alex's earnings, properties, etc...

Understand, Angelique and Alex, I have absolutely no problems with your lifestyles! I'm just saying that no matter how much you say that it's real...Alex still had to consent somewhere along the line to become a slave.

True,, In our Circles it is referred to as the Last choice a slave gets to make.
If we were going out Knocking people over the heads and Pressganging them into Non concensual labour then Of course it would be slavery in the Classical sense, but what we have been saying all along is, Though it shares Some Vocabulary, what WE know as slavery is NOT the same as that Known by the Antibellum African Americans, or the Pre Exodus Jews. Those comparrisons, the ones people seem Unable to get Out of thier minds are the ones that LEAST describe what we do, and who we are. Alex and i share a relationship On Line owing to the geographical distance between us, and the Current realities of our Lives, But I have Not Only held slaves On Line, AND i think you would be best served by asking alex herself If she were able to be with me in my Home Would i NOT "physically own(s) Alex and Alex's earnings, properties, etc...". The answer might surprise you.

Angel.

She would, definitely.

Just in case you were curious.

And indeed, the answer doesn't surprise me. Although not active as a domme atm, it doesn't surprise me that so many ppl in SL think it's rp when they see a Master or Mistress with his/her slave. In most cases however they are 2 consenting adults envolved in a lifestyle based upon trust and loyalty. And Angelique, you can be proud of Alex btw.

Mandy C

I've been called worse.

I am sure it does seem "Wacky", but I assure you we see Human Rights cases come before the courts for reasons that seem to me to be just as trivial as:

"someone made someone else write something on an internet forum".

I honestly have a serious concern about this because the German canabalism case may well be seen as legal precendent. The victim was willing, adult and fully consenting, but the court determined that a crime had been committed. It follows that you could be a reallife consenting slave, but a human right violation has nevertheless has still been committed.

I see your point, Deira. However, to me that's the so called grey area. In general, most of the BDSM/Master/Mistress/slave lifestyle doesn't even go there. And the guy that commited that gruesome act must've had a serious mental problem and maybe he might repeat the same action, so in that light, yes the court ruled correct.

Mandy C

Please permit me to make my opinion known. I know I can seem very pedantic, but my concerns are genuine ones.

My social and legal concerns:

I am sure you know that we have had a number of cases come to court that have involved your women being brought from overseas on the promise of being given reputable work, but they have instead been kept in a form of non-consensual slavery - (which of course is a contradiction in terms). Imagine the brouhaha that would ensue if such a case came to court and it transpired that the defendant had a SL account and role played sex slavery. SL does have a very high profile at the moment and as others here have said, you cannot give up all responsibilities. We do have some responsibilities to other SL residents, to LL and to society in general and as soon as you take something out of the realm of fantasy and into real life, you become subject to real life laws.

My forum concerns:

I am now in a position where I can no longer feel sure that Alex is using her own words and expressing her own opinions. This forum works on the implicit assumption that a post is the work of the poster. That these words are written by me and there is no one behind the scenes telling me what to write. If post and poster are not associated then the functioning of the forum is impacted and the full and free discussion that people enjoy is impaired.

I think it is unrealistic to expect that the forum moderator is up to date on the current status of European Human Rights legislation, and as I have some knowledge, I can inform. But what happens after that is *not* my responsibility.

Yes we are indeed in a "grey" area here. But when I read this thread I can easily see a situation in a court of law in England or Wales where the Magistrate or Judge would look at the evidence and say: "It appears that the defendant has an extreme level of control over these other adults whom she refers to as "her girls". Moreover she appears to be living vicariously through them, apologising for them and saying, "Their triumphs are my triumphs and and their failures are my failures" ... etc. The judge would then adjorn the court pending psychiatric reports on the defendant.

Of course in Scotland, the courts operate a bit differently - they are concerned with seeing a case to be proven or not proven. The Procurator in a Scottish Court woud more like say, "When asked to clarify that this took place within the context of a fantasy role play, the defendant replied, 'No'. Case Proven."

Prosecutor: Alex, did you willingly accept Angelique's advice?
Alex: Yes.
Prosecutor: Damn!

No, I'm not making light of this .. well mebbe just a little but I can't see the Court of Human Rights comparing Alex's freely given will to compare with illegal immigrants.


Oh and btw, the new Firefox has a speel checker .... oops!