Mainland Sim Full: Who Is To Blame?

A spike period here and there does not indicate constant abuse.

consideirng today while I was there is dropped to as few as 6 in the info hub... and go as high as 29 in the sim (when people were inviting folks to come)

There are peaks and lows.

Why do you think there are bot armies for skewing the traffic to places, it can be done to make the stats worthless

And to be blunt: the only way you can complain about use of a sim is if you own said sim. Public places are for use by all, and since the infohub is public it can and will be used by any that choose to

That'll sure help the situation. Could save a step if the Bear Buddies would wear attachments on their butts with "Earning L$1 per 15 mins" hovertext.

On the plus side, little controversies like this should be extra encouragement to the Lindens to remove Traffic altogether. Another problem solved.

Hello Please.

I never denied that there are sometime large groups of people at Bear. There are. Quit making things up. Again.

I thought I was muted? Another lie. Anyway, I have never blurted that I was calling in people to fill in the sim. That is a lie.

Yes. I tell newbies to use bear infohub as a chat area. It is our right. I don't care about your wrong-headed interpretation of the rules. Until the infohub is removed from the Bear sim, it's open as a place for anyone who wants to use it.

The OFFICIAL definition of an infohub "Infohub, also known as a Welcome Area, is a place where Residents congregate and socialize. It's also the entry point on the Second Life Grid's Mainland for new Residents, after they complete Orientation Island, and (optionally) Help Island." https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=4257

My welcome text to newbies is basically a summary of that. Yes, I know this is queue for your cut-and-paste policy proposal drivel about the one sim vs. four sim blah blah blah.

Don't want to hear it.. it's not policy. I'm not wrong in telling people to chat in a place where they're allowed to chat just because, honey, you can't handle the truth.

Now I do not know wether you did read the whole long thread, but a couple of things strike me as at least very weird. Where my first reaction was: she is right here, her own postings did change my mind. And I am no member of any Bear related group, and hold no grudge. What I noticed though:

- Even at an organized event yesterday, the sim was not full, at least not when I was there. So if at an organized party (with forum people there, not just the bear group) the sim doesn't fill up, how the heck can the bear group fill it up on their own again and again?

- Whenever I hop in at the hub, there are about 6-8 people there. And that is what I read from every single person in this thread who decided to see for themselves.

- The reason for the fact we do not see that many people there, is because they lay low when people come and watch. Come on, that is about the saddest argument I ever saw. Hey I saw an alien. Sorry, they hide when anyone else then me is looking.

- The only abuse I have witnessed, is from that Ryan guy. And of course the visual abuse of her builds. And some notecard spam of Lias. She is admitting that she is doing things to grief.

But, let me answer the OP's original question:

Your conclusion is quite right. The person implementing the 30 dancepads is deliberately blocking resources, and blocking access to the public Linden Land. Not so weird that the Lindens act on that.
30 avatars socializing in an Infohub are simply 30 avatars in an Infohub.

Your question is even simpler to answer: Lindens do not want to turn Infohubs ito unsupervised hang-outs, they already were. They were set up as public land, where each and every resident can visit, and have a chat with other people. Now it might happen once in a while, that too many people are gathering, so that access to the parcels around the hub is blocked. That is something that can happen at any sim with public land.

Now I do have a question to Lias: Where is written that Infohubs are only ment for NEW avatars? Not the first time you are asked, I believe. And yes, Torley spoke about a place where new avatars land. But does a place where new avatars can land, mean that no other people can come and visit? The fact that you did not consider that fact when agreeing with the Hub, doesn't mean that you can now suddenly make up your own rules.

Well stop destroying your business for your drama fetish and just move to where you can run it, the grid is a choking on empty land at record cheap prices and you are pissing off potential customers with your stubborness stressmongering over one plot. instead of dropping it and forgeting it. If you spent half the effort you do whinning about the infohub on running your business in another sim you could have a good turn over and your name would be respected. But by all means keep sucking on the drama stick for the next 20 years if you think it gives you a rush and popularity.
1am and 10 people in the sim, all in the infohub, and there is a group talking on voice and they seem pretty cool, a little stoned perhaps but not trouble makers. Generally they just are happy to hang around and chat and dissapointed that Lias used to be friendly to them then became such a bitch to them 1 hour later they all leave, 1 person left in the sim at 2am.

Constant spike periods do. Especially when the parcel owners have to meter their ativities to acommodate useless loitering. When infohubss were placed next to peopl'es parcels the thinking was that these places woukd be an asset to the parcel owner. And for a time they were. Linden Lab abandoned infohubs a long time ago. Its time to pull the plug on these government owned nonsense parcels.

To prove them you need better monitoring tools, as it stands only LL has access to them.

Best bet is to get one of the low prim sims, if the classes are worth the hassles and drama that you are embroiled in... then they should pay for the island's fees

If there is so much cheap land available the loiterers need to go get a parcel to stand on. Oh wait, someone bought a parcel in Bear for you all to stand on - but you all will not move 60 meters to the left and restore the natural flow of traffic in the infohub. You honestly think you and your pals can find a sim you want to hang out in and tell the parcel owners to move if they don't like it? And you don't expect drama? Your living in a dream world.

Useless loitering?


I'm glad you get to determine what everone else's SL experience should be and if they are spending there time in a productive manner.

You do realise that half the people are probably there due to your having a fit over the infohub. I know I had never been there before, but decided to wander by to see what all the drama was about

Mort my best bet is to use as much of the sim's resources as the loiterers do - then access to the sim will be limited. Eventually these people will understand what loiterers do to a sim and move on - or they won't and I will just have parcels and dance pads giving noobs money.

Nope what will happen is Linden labs coming down on you for the same reason they go after griefers who lag out a sim.

It will also drive away a good portion of those that might have signed up for your classes if they come in and see nothing but dance pads to boost traffic numbers and otherwise underhanded practices many clubs use to be considered top on the search listings

Hold on... what am I missing here?
Did not realise this the first time it was mentioned, but apparantly a parcel was bought for the group to stand/sit/loiter on. Nice of course.

But... can someone tell me how 30+ avatars on a parcel in Bear are better then 30+ avatars on a public land piece called Infohub in that same Bear sim? Aren't the resources they would be using by "loitering" on that parcel, the same resources they are using by "loitering" in the Infohub?

What I read from the quote, is that you want only new avatars to be in the infohub, that is all. The fact the Bear group is in the Sim seems no problem, its only the fact they are in the Infohub. Feel free to correct me if wrong.

Think you answer over twice though, because it might be a very important one in this thread...

This thread is not about the group=think moindset of the loiterers and greifers in the infohub - It is about how many loiterers each parcel is allowed to support before the sim is rendered full. And that is all it will be about from now on.You camp. I camp. We all camp.
The loitering in the infohub is at times inconvieneinet for me. You all will not meter your activities in any way. In fact, as you just said - you increase the numbers daily by recruiting new players who are not aware of what the mass gathering does to a sim. All I can do to lower those numbers is take spaces away from your group. And that is what I am doing.
Until the Lindens realize that the infohubs and welcome areas are a big mistake (many new players talk negatively about their first mainland experience in one of these places) This sort of thing will ontinue to be a issue. Most mainlanders through their hands up in the air and say 'The land belongs to the service provider so there is nothing I can do about it'. I do not agree that the service provider should sell us server space and then be the reason that we have difficukty using the server. LL needs to clean this up or deal with the two year anniversary thread about the service provider supporting loitering and greifing next July.

Their loitering and recruiting new loiterers in the infohub is the problem. They have their own parcel within sight of the infohub. And last year they did go there. But they soon realized it was work to make a gathering place work and they all returned to the infohub to more easily access people entering the sim.
People that gather to talk and loiter in infohubs and welcome areas are not there to help people or just talk the few people they actually know. They are there to be in a big crowd and hang-out without having to develop the audience and venue themselves with no concern for the resoures they are abusing.

The lack of evidence that you and others have found during the course of this thread is no indication that what Lias says isn't true. It only indicates that what she said hasn't happened during this period, and yet you imply that she isn't telling the truth. There is no way that you can know that. It's just your imagination, and you chose to wade in with it regardless.

Perhaps "accusation" was too strong a word, but you certainly implied that Lias was not telling the truth (lying) when you wrote:-





Exactly! Your observations are few, and made at a time when it was already stated that the number decreases when it is known to be being watched. There is no way that you can say it doesn't, and yet you chose to report your observations with an accusational implication of lying on Lias' part.

I haven't said that you shouldn't post your observations, but you posted them with an accusational implication of Lias lying. That's where you were wrong - and many others are much more wrong than that - they post outright accusations that they cannot back up.

No it's not reasonable to consider it not true. It is only reasonable to consider it not true during the times when you took the measurements, which is during the period of this thread - and we've been through that before.

Your observations should lead you to doubt what Lias said, but not to totally disbelieve what she said, and definitely not to post your accusation in the form of a blatantly obvious implication, which you cannot back up.

Let me be clear though. I don't know if Lias has been honest or not. What I am certain of is that nobody else in the thread knows either, and yet they post imaginations as outright facts/accusations. That's the point I am making.

One factor you may be missing is that Bear has one of the few mature rated infohubs.

They can speak with a bit more freedom there versus the other larger hubs.

The Linden gave me a number to let me know how many pads I can have in my name in the sim. I am going to take the summer to deal with this loitering issue. School is out for summer.

Well, reading this, your main concern is with the new people landing in the Infohub. But that is not what your postings were all about. Your postings were about people filling up a Sim. And the fact you have more right because you pay tier for land in the Sim, and they do not.

So you have me puzzled here. Because suddenly your main concern switch from a Sim that gets filled up once in a while, to the way new users are greeted. The fact your reaction to this all, is pleasing the newbie with a building that makes the average add-farmer pale, doesn't add up with this either.

That is why I advised you, to think your answer over.

I have been reading the thread since it started - I even posted quite early on.

I followed pretty much the same trail as you did, Marcel. At first I thought it was bad that LL land often uses most of the sim's resources, and then I drifted to the other side, just like you did. But yesterday I sat back and thought about it, and I came to realise that the accusations posted against Lias in this thread are made by people who really don't know anything other than what they've seen during the time of this thread. I don't think that Lias ever said that the hub is continually almost full, or anything remotely similar, and yet people in this thread post as though she did - even accusing her of lying because *they* haven't seen it happen - like their observations over a few days are all that matter - how self-centred. They have no idea whether or not she's been lying, but they accuse her of it.

Do you really think she made it up when she said that one of them had told her to ask if she needs av spaces? I don't. The guy said it was untrue but I don't believe him. I may be wrong, but it has the ring of truth to it. If the same thing happened in the sim where my store is, I'd be irate. My attitude would be the same as most other people's - I pay the tier for a large part of that sim, and nobody using LL land is going to tell me to ask them for av spaces in the sim.

So I am on the side of the landowners, and against those who cause problems for the landowners in the sim. I don't say that they have no right to be there, but I do say that they knowingly, and intentionally, cause problems for the landowners, simply by not choosing a more suitable place to gather, where other people are not affected. They insist on standing on their 'rights' and staying there, even though they know that it affects other people in the sim, to the extent of having to cancel scheduled events. I blame them for their attitude, and their blatant willingness to be a nuisance to the sim's landowners. It's the attitude of a gang of children. I also blame LL for not dealing with it by moving the infohub to another sim.

I'm sorry that you went to the attempt to fill the sim yesterday, Marcel, because you are a nice person. That attempt was sheer stupidity, and was arranged to get up the landowners' noses - to take a shot at the landpowners. People should know better than to do stupid things like that.

here is a question then:

If she does what she wants, is she not griefing the other land owners by preventing them from having use of the sim or customers at their locations?

No.

Expand your question with details for a longer reply

What use is a parcel in Bear to stand on, that still doesn't make you happy with regulars are anywhere in Bear anyhow. Your message is you want the sim to your self period. Easy fixed, sell to NCI or other newbie places that want land near infohubs. and buy an island.
And you live in Days of Our Lives TV drama world. Your aim seems to make yourself known as the biggest drama queen in SL and it's working.

No sorry, we don't all camp, I haven't camped since way early days, and never will again, better money in 30min RL overtime than 4 hours being bored watching an AV dance on a pad.

Let me first reply to a few quotes from you Phil:

To be honest, I have no clue who is lying. You say you do not believe him, I rather not believe either of them. That is why I keep asking questions


Well, the reason I went there is not to fill up the Sim, but to see where things would lead to. Visiting that event learned me two things:
One: Even an event announced on 4 different places, including 2 much visited fora, did not manage to get the Sim full. Go figure.
Two: That Ryan person is a particular unfriendly and abusive person. At least at that moment.

More important though, are the questions I asked Lias, and the answers I am getting. And the answers I did not get.

Because as you must have noticed, suddenly the focus changed from Sims filling up, to the fact they loiter IN the infohub, and not NEXT to it. Well, where they stand in the Sim doesn't affect the amount of avatars that can enter, does it? According to her last answer to me, the problem has got nothing to do with the filling up of a Sim, but with the fact they loiter on the wrong spot in the Sim.

There is a reason I questioned Lias, and not the rest. After a few posts, and some reading up in the past, made me question the actual motives for this thread. And the last answers I did get, made pretty clear those motives are deeper then initially shown.

And that while I actually warned her to think the answer over.