Mainland Sim Full: Who Is To Blame?

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm still trying to grasp all of this. In one post you're complaining because there are too many "loiterers" in the street and in the Bear infohub, and they're allegedly using up all "your" SIM resources. In later posts you're saying they shouldn't be "loitering" in the public areas of Linden owned land, they should be on the approx. 2,000 sq. meter roadside parcel designated for them. Now, that being said, should they choose to all start congregating at said parcel instead of "loitering" on Linden owned land, how is this going to fix your alleged problem with them using up the SIM resources? Does each avatar not use the same amount of resources no matter where in the same SIM they are, be it private or public parcel?

I think anyone named Linden is trying to pretend they do not see this thread. This is not a issue they want to admit exists and they certainly do not want to deal with it. I figured that much out after ten months or ARs, breach of contract chats with LL legal and Community Team run-around.
So now I forcefully took back some resources being wasted on the infohub. I guess the loiterers will use the reamining resources and that will be the end of this - for now.

You didn't answer my question. Why bring it here? We're residents! You've said numerous times that our opinions and actions neither matter to you nor influence any future resolution. So, Lias, why, still, are you posting about this?

Because these people would soon fade away if they had to rely on making their own traffic on their own parcel.

FIFY

I am talking the entire situation out. I am responding to all reasonable questions and concepts surrounding this issue. I am even responding to the loiterers. Someone did point out that none of us will ever change our minds regarding loitering in infohubs and sim resources. They are probably right. But perhaps some will or someone will come up with a viable solution. Either way I am talking it out. Atthe next anniversary of this issue I will look for good solutions again.

That is only speculation though, is it not? It is also entirely possible that group would become even more organized and popular, further using more SIM resources? I think it is entirely possible for it to go either way. That is of course speculation too, and no one can accurately say which of the two scenarios would happen until or unless such event were to transpire.

I bet you I can help design a location that would bring many back with out relying on dance pads and tacky tricks.

I am using the dancepads as a bookmark. Marking my resources. I am not even putting them on my parcel. I am placing them and paying for them on Ryan's parcel. I do not rely on that type of traffick for my business but Ryan does. That is why he bought the land adjacent to the hub. So he can have the noob traffick. But since the loiteerers distract the noobs from leaving the infohub (by telling them to sit and chat becaiuse the infohub was putthere for them to chat) Ryan nor anyone surrounding the infohub, gets that traffick anymore.
And I can kick any of the campews when I need more resources and the infohub loiterers wont budge. At least this way I have a chance of using resources when I want to.

Might be because of the design of his place makes freebie resales look decent in most sims

Could also be other factors on his business philosophy

And a key fact: You are not entitled to any slots on the sim to bookmark as your resources to use above another.

Lias - for what its worth, I sympathize with both you & the infohub denizens, for different reasons. The problem, however - goes beyond just Bear.

All Governor Linden-owned land is a "commons". They're free resources for all to use, equally. That's why the infohub denizens have a right to congregate where they are.

The problem is that mainland sim resources are treated as a 'commons' as well, even though you pay money for a slice of it. The true source of your problem is a classic tragedy of the commons scenerio. (Wikipedia has a great article on the subject for those who haven't read it already).

So, while I do respect the right for folks to utilize resources that belong to the commons, I also completely respect the right you have to get what you pay for.

Having Linden block residents from congregating at your infohub wont solve the real problem - it would only be a band-aid to your problem, in Bear. The only way to truly solve the 'tragedy of the commons' problem on the mainland, is to divide resources up based upon what you own (Commons included).

Dividing resources would work something like this:

If you own 32km of the sim
Governor Linden owns 16km of the sim
Joe Neighbor owns 16km of the sim

You'd be able to hold half of the total sim avatar allotment on your land, and have half of the script time devoted to scripts running on your land. Governor Linden (the commons) would get a quarter, and Joe Neighbor would get a quarter. Perhaps have a small slice of resources reserved for folks simply passing thru for the few sims that contain no commons at all.

This would solve the tragedy of the commons issue, but it would create other problems. As you know, its rare for 100% of parcels in any given sim to be simultaneously utilized. Unless sim limits were raised significantly, you'd probably find yourself only able to accomodate less avatars than you are today. You'd be 'getting what you paid for'.... but I think you want your 'fair' slice of the commons in addition to your own land. Unfortunately, so does everyone else.

I don't know the truth about any of it, as I've said a number of times, and neither does anyone else who hasn't been personally involved - as I've also said a number of times, and nobody has denied it. And yet, quite a few people in this thread have written accusations. It started with the 2nd reply, when someone said that Lias is trolling (the poster doesn't understand what the word actually means). It was downhill from there, with people jumping on that bandwagon and seeking to find things where Lias must be in the wrong, inventing things so that Lias is in the wrong, and so on, even pointing out spelling errors. (See Chris Norse's post about "lies and scams" as an example). Such bandwagons are nothing new in this forum.

The truth is that nobody has found anything where Lias is in the wrong, except auto-notecard giving on land that I don't think is her own. Apart from that, it's all been negativity for the sake of being negative.

Incidentally, Lias isn't the only one in the thread who didn't answer questions that were specifically put to them

Your original question was about griefing. What you've described isn't griefing by any stretch of the imagination. It's wrong, but it's not griefing, so the answer is still no.

[added]
It wasn't you who asked the original question, was it?

I had been thinking about this myself recently. Considering avatars only, 40 avatars per sim works out to 1 per 1,638.4m². This doesn’t help smaller plots. If you change the idea to a guaranteed-minimum concept, then that would help with larger plots but still not the smaller ones. Here, if you owned half the sim, you were guaranteed the ability to have 20 avatars on your land. If you no one was using the other 20, you could have more. But, if you were using all 40 and someone else wanted in the sim, then somebody would have to get automatically booted. I think this generally sounds good but needs thought out more because there are issues with the smaller plots.

--Hugsy

Yup, if you owned a 512, even YOU wouldn't be allowed on the parcel.

Not strictly true with the guaranteed-minimum concept. It's more like if you own 512m², you're not guaranteed access to your land (which is the way that it is now). If you own 1,648m² or more, then you are guaranteed access.

--Hugsy

Rubbish, and you know it. Sarah Nerd was stirring it, and she should be thoroughly ashamed of herself.

Yes they do, and Lias has every right to hold her business events there.

Let me try and clarify it for you...

Infohubs are for info. They are not intended as places to just hang out. None of the LL descriptions of them say that they are for hanging out in, although there is nothing wrong with doing that, and some are used for it, as are other types of places. In this particular case, just hanging out there causes landowners in the sim to not be able to use their land in the way they want to use it. The solution is obvious. Hang out somehere else, where landowners aren't affected. That's what any right thinking person would do, but not this bunch. They know that they are preventing landowners from using their land as they want to use it, and they stay there regardless. As I said ealier, they behave like a gang of children, and anyone actively supporting them, such as Sarah Nerd whipping up the idea of getting up the landowners' noses, is behaving just as childishly.

You have yet to show any lies and scams, so put up or shut up, and do try not to be so offensive.

They tried once Garrett - and it did not end well. So the surviving members gravitated back to the infohub and the loitering and noob recruiting started all over again.

For some reason I keep thinking of millionaire mile...

Yes I am. If I was not etitled to any spots to have avatsrs why would I pay tier? I can just stand in theinfohub with the loiterers then. Linden Lab didnt sell isolated server space. The entire gimmick relies on having people from all over the world log in ans be bale to interact. People pay for server space to create social areas or business areas. Both rely on actual avatars having access.
My neighbor in Nepessing has about 15 to 20 camping spots - and has had them since the end of 2005. There is not a momment that they are not in use. No one has to explain WHY they have camping - they are just allowed to have it. I am telling you my personal reason for having camping. I am sure my neighbor's reason is different than mine. But that is neither here nor there. My camp spots will look identicle to his.

The only time you are quarantined server use is when you own a private sim

All other sims are public/general use, and you can put up ban lines to make them private areas if you pay tier on the lots

This is a good response. I am not against paying tier for what I need to use. What Ryan and I did was group-own all of our Bear parcels so we could share resources. So right now we own more than a quarter of the sim.
Under the current arrangement we could own the entire sim and still need to cater to the infohub.

Perhaps that was what happened once, maybe even twice; but that's no guarantee it would play out the same way again. People adapt, learn from their mistakes, and so on and so forth. It's human nature to find creative ways to circumvent problems, whether it be for good or bad, and these things do tend to bring out the worst in people, as has been shown quite clearly over the course of this thread. Emotions get high, tempers flare, and everyone starts slinging mud. It's clearly not solving any of the problems at hand, not for anyone involved.

Not true Mort - there is a line in the TOS about service issues caused by the service provider. It is really there to apply to full outages - but has been interpreted by three attorneys to apply to the Lindens encouraging people that do not pay to use a server to congregate on it - which effectively blocks the tier payer from using it.

There was the case about the guy who rigged the URL of the Linden Land auctions so he could get land cheaply. He sued to get his money and account back and the Lindens settled out of court. The judge on trial had publicly cited that many areas of the Linden TOS is illegal.

They did ask me could they put it there and Torley Linden DID say exactly what was to be there (perhaps you should contact him and ask him what he said to mainland parcel owners in 2006 to sell them the infohub idea). The Lindens are not going to sell any mainland by telling people the service provider can come in at anytime and place a parcel there for unsupervised loitering.