Mainland Sim Full: Who Is To Blame?

Well for the most part on my main and with an alt, it was peaceful congregation of folk talking. Usually the only hostility was from folks coming in and telling others to leave the sim.

And my comment on millionaire mile holds true... quote a few cities turn them into public parks in the central area (New York is a prime example). At times the residents had raised a stink about the general population using the public parks because they could not hold huge gatherings there with the people wandering around.

They wanted the public park for their own uses, but didn't want others to use it when it inconvenienced them.

The info hubs are public parks, especially since the one in Bear states come enjoy the art located there.... chats happen and people hang around much like in a public art museum

But they don't make it the 'normal' hanging around area when they know that it affects other people around them. Not unless they have that sort of mentality, anyway. Most people go by the 'live and let live' idea, and if that were done in this case, the problem wouldn't exist.

you are aware many public museums have groups that hang out there a lot.

Some talk and the new visitors get pulled into the conversations so the groups grow.

There are certain things you can't do even in a mature infohub, but till they step over those lines the public space is there to be used by the public as they choose within the rules of Linden Labs

All that is happening is more traffic is going there now to see what the fuss is about, and I expect this weekend said place will be packed just out of spite by those annoyed at the behavior of those that want the hub shut down when they don't benefit from it

Yes there are other places where people hang out that don't affect those around them, but in this case it does affect the landowners around them, and any averagely decent person would take account of that and try not to affect people. The Bear hub hangers are not that way inclined unfortunately, as some of their number have made perfectly clear in this thread. It really doesn't matter what is allowed and what isn't allowed. What matters is the way that people are treating people, when they don't have to. You expect the place to be packed out of spite this weekend. That would definitely show the gang of children mentality of those people. If they are adults, as they should be, they should be ashamed of themselves.

Kinda like the campers using up the resources in a sim to boost traffic ratings.

When I was there, and it is observation the only rudeness was from the landowners hassling the dozen or so folks at most in the info hub.

In effect coming into the museum and screaming at everyone to get out so they can hold a party in the convention center across the street

No, why don't you go back through the thread and look for more of my posts. I'm quite interested in what "more solid accusations" of mine that you might dig up. Be sure to post all of your findings here. There's 30 pages back there - make sure you check them all; you don't want to miss the real juicy one after all.



Sorry, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to "discuss normally" with you. When you explicitly say over and over again that the best thing to do when there's absolutely no available evidence to support a claim is "just believe the claim anyway", when you describe the basic rules of empirical observation as "the 'scientific' crap", when your posts consist of nothing more than a single repeated logical fallacy (special pleading, to be exact), you leave a good many people in the dark as to how to approach you. An old, old friend of mine once told me, "you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't use reason to get themselves into in the first place," yet, I keep trying with you, like a fool.



Another logical fallacy - this one is called "appeal to authority". Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between evidence and anecdote. Let me help: what Lias says about the conditions in her sim is "anecdote", and is intrinsically worthless in and of itself - no matter how long she's been there. It CAN qualify as evidence - let me repeat that: IT CAN qualify as evidence - HOWEVER, in order for it to be "evidence" of any kind, I (not necessarily "ME" as such, but other people in general) have to be able to go there and see the same thing for myself, which would lead me to the same conclusion. Evidence = "a result that can be reproduced". I'm not holding my breath here, but do you at LEAST understand that much?

It's hardly surprising considering the way the group has treated the landowners over time, is it?

The only evidence I've seen is here, and usually in retaliation for bad behavior on the land owner's part

You're not very good at normal discussions are you? No matter...

I don't think I'll bother. There may be something and there be nothing. The implication in your post, when you chose to open the discussion with me, is enough.

Then stop trying. You engaged me - remember? It wasn't the other way round. If you want to think certain things that you've no way of knowing are true or not, be my guest. Just don't object again when someone points out that you've no way of knowing. It's easy

You are leading yourself astray here. What Lias says about the conditions in the sim is either true or false. That's the way to discuss it. If you think it's false, state your reasons. You few observations count for only a few very short periods of time. Personally, I'm not saying that it's true or false. I'm saying that you, and everyone else who hasn't been personally involved, doesn't know one way or the other, and that the accusations and judgements against Lias, that have been posted in this thread, are figments of rotten imaginations. E.g. Chris Norse called her a liar and a scammer, but has failed to show it. It's just nasty imagination, and this thread has too much of it.

Anyway, if you find it too difficult to discuss with me, feel free to stop trying

And that's my whole point. *We* simply haven't seen what Lias and Ryan have seen over the time that the problem has existed, so nobody is in a position to judge their objections to the way the hub is used, and all the accusations and negativity in this thread should never have happened.

And they haven't proven it had occurred in the past. Short of video and linen labs backed logs there is none.

They don't need to prove it. What's wrong with someone coming to the forum and posting about a problem? It happens all the time here, and it's usually accepted. Nobody is asked to prove that an island owner kicked them out and they lost money, for instance. What's different in this case?

The fact is that none of us know the truth from personal experiences. Only those who have been involved over the time know the truth. I'm saying that all the accusations in this thread were wrong, and just people's petty imaginations at work. But I have to say that what Lias has said does have a ring of truth about it - things like being told to ask for av spaces, and what she said happened the first time she approached them, saying that she's trying to run a class in the sim. I favour her side of the tale, but I don't *know* that it's all true, and I certainly find a lot of fault with all the imagination-based accusations that she's faced in this thread. Some of them were outright nasty.

I thought as much. I trust I won't have to deal with such measly "threats" in the future.

Though I admit, it would've been a little fun hearing that you slogged through all those pages to find absolutely nothing (considering that the post we're discussing was my very first post in this entire thread, after all).



Stop trying - in the face of such an affront to common sense and "the 'science' crap" I hold so dear? Never in life. mister.



It's not just me. It's lots of people. Over different periods of time. You'll recall that one aspect of the original claim was that the sim is CONSTANTLY clogged with Bear visitors. Strictly speaking, several visits - even if they were for "short periods" (though how you came to the conclusion that our visits were all necessarily "short" is its own matter) - wherein that condition is NOT observed are plenty enough to prove that particular aspect of the claim false simply by definition.



I've called her neither a liar nor a scammer; I am no more responsible for what Chris Norse says here than he is for what I say. Nor am I interested, to be frank.

But I WILL say that I am not good and taking peoples' word for something which my own eyes give me a different picture of. Yes, I suppose it's completely possible that the secret Bear Club, through some mystical magical means, knows when I'm about to visit and makes sure there's only a few people there when I show up. It's completely possible that this cabal returns the sim to chaos only after I leave, thereby leading me to declare Lias's claim "not proven". But something being "possible" is not the same as saying that something is "true", or even "likely". The fact is, with every visit I make - with every new occasion I pick to drop in for a minute - the probability that I just "happen" to be dropping in at the right time to see nothing, gets closer and closer to zero.

without proof it's a baseless accusations and slander of people

Yes public places will get crowded, it's the risk of agreeing to them in the first place.

Public parks have groups that meet there and hang out. But you don't see central park making them leave because they are over 40years old

It isn't a parallel of RL. All the people who want to get into Central Park can get in. Sims are different.

It's not slander if it's true.

I don't see any reason to believe some people and not others here. If you need proof, ok, and if you do, I don't see why you're in this thread at all. It's not normal for the forum to require proof, and it's not normal for people to ask for it when someone reports a problem here.

With that... I'm off to bed

You have to prove it isn't slander.

You demand proof from others that verifies their findings by actually investigating the situation

And times change, normal is a relative term anyway. It's normal for my avatar to run around with enough fur to keep a caribbean queen warm in the arctic... and for others that is abnormal

Who told you to leave the sim? I was not there and Ryan dropped by later and just got yelled at.

Art museums have fire codes and over crowding is forbidden. Unsupervised museums encourage loitering which leads to greifing and resource issues.[/QUOTE]

Real community planners know the difference between unsupervised loitering and a well designed and run community open space

My, you really are no good at discussions. I made no threat. I asked if you wanted me to look back through the thread.

LOL. It's not very scientific to invent things, such as threats, is it? And it's not very scientific to take a few measurements of something, and think that they provide the answer, is it? Perhaps we should invoke quantum theory - if you measure the quantity, you can't know the location, and vice versa

By "short periods", I mean visits to the hub during the time of this thread. I've watched the traffic there myself, on the map - for hours at a time. They are short periods compared to the length of time that the problem has been going on. And don't forget that it was stated that the numnbers dwindle when they know they are being watched. There is no way that you can know what happens there from an interest in it that started when this thread started.

Well I am. It was one of the many imagination-based accusations that have no place in a forum. That's what I've been posting about. You chose to enter into it with your own implication. I don't care what you're interested in - you chose to discuss it with me. I've no particular desire to get your mind working right. This dialogue is of your making, not mine.

Don't trust your eyes. Nothing in physics is ever proven. That's why it is all just theories, and a theory is only good until an observation shows that it is wrong. Your observations show nothing except that for a few brief periods, the numbers were not high.

No I don't. I've been saying that nobody, except those who have been involved with it over the time, knows one way or the other. I'm not demanding proof. I'm saying that the accusations in this thread are imagination-based, and therefore totally out of order.

I was the one that reminded Ryan that telling others to leave could be considered harassment when he stood there and kept telling Sarah and several others to move on



The are is designed with benches and other seating, count the possible sit locations and the positioning of said seating.

It is designed to encourage 'loitering' in a pleasant environment.

Many out there see it as a community center, and you are trying to destroy said community for your own profitable enterprises.





Oh as for needing 5 parcels with live feeds, it the feed url doesn't change you could use 1 and a note card menu driven radio to change as needed.... i use one at my place with 11 channels. (it's a modded case for the open radio, metaversial produces).. something a professional club may want to consider when they have a fixed stable of DJs since there are likely ways to edit it to handle more than 11 stations.

And I said "yes". But of course, you then cried off. Was it from laziness? Fear of not finding what you thought you would? Perhaps merely disinterest (strange, considering it was you that posed the question to begin with). Let me guess..."it wasn't really a serious question".





It's actually that if you measure the -velocity- then you can't know the location. Heisenberg and all. But ah well.

Certainly less scientific than any of the above is the notion that it's proper to believe X, when there's no tangible evidence that X is true. Faith is rather the opposite of science.



Way to avoid the point - but don't let rational thought get in the way of your favorite type of discourse. Careful study shows that the "numbers-dwindling-while-being watched" assertion was not part of the original claim, but was only offered LATER. In fact, that particular goalpost was moved specifically in order to explain we thread-readers' odd ability to TP in and out of Bear with absolutely no trouble despite this alleged "CONSTANT saturation problem". Be careful not to fall into yet another logical fallacy - the one of "post hoc, ergo propter hoc". Isn't it funny that these fallacious lines of reasoning are so commonly used that we actually have NAMES for them all?



No, "Chris Norse"'s dialogue is not of my making. I am not responsible for anything he has said, just as he isn't responsible for anything I've said. Are you trying to paint us all with the same brush?



(Like the theory of gravity, or the germ theory of medicine for instance)



No. Once more the crux of the issue. A theory is not good at all TO BEGIN WITH until repeated observation first proves that it is RIGHT.

The theory - or, more properly, "claim" - that Bear is being intentionally clogged with avatars has not been proven right. Therefore it is no good - yet.

Poor Ryan wasnt aware that this thread was still thriving and that some of teh loiterers had found it. When he got there he got yelled at - for no reason he assumed - so he yelled back. He sent me the text of the insults that were thrown at him at the time.

There are 2 benches total in the infohub outdoor area- none have sit animations. That can handle 6 people.

It was designed for 6 people total to sit.

I am not donating money to Linden Lab so you can stand around for free. I pay Linden Lab to use server resources. If you have no respect for the fact that other people are paying to use the resources while you abuse them - then we can no longer make you comfortable in the sim. We have to claim the resources we pay to use. It does not make any sense to continue to support the ever growing infohub loitering group.


Please. You have no idea how this class is taught. Each student gets their own stream and their own parcel to stand on to practice. The instructor moves to each parcel. We are not adding every student to the radio each time we have a class. That is not practical.

you didn't count the lodge part of the info hub.