Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

Sure, I agree that it *is* significant.

The question is, how much significant it really is! Let's see a different example. GOM and Anshe both exchange L$ for US$ and vice-versa. Whom do you trust "more"? If we do a poll, I'd say most people would trust GOM more because Anshe is "new" to the business of banking - and that's the whole reason for it. Well, sure, GOM has a two-person company behind it. But imagine that Anshe set up her own company herself (I wonder if she hasn't already!). Whom would you trust with your money then?

Think eBay - where you do business with the people you trust more. Not necessarily because an item sold by IBM is inherently more "trustful" than an item sold by John Doe, but because IBM has a longer and better reputation, and you're willing to accept a lesser risk by buying from IBM.

I think both buying from IBM or John Doe is referred as "sales" in eBay. Why, then, a difference in SL?

Ah, Lindar -- and you can't really escape politics and philosophy when discussing things

..and when PayPal was new... and GOM not well known... Did we trust them to 100% in the start??

Give people a chance.. pls...

http://freshnews.com/news/fresh-money/article_20126.html?Intel

http://lindenlab.com/press_story_18.php

And wow... here are a one-man....

http://www.thealarmclock.com/mt/archives/2004/10/

”Management: Founder/CEO is Philip Rosedale. We met Philip in 1995 when he was running 1-man firm developing software for used-car salesmen. He then created a video codec.......”

He got a chance... we all love (ALL?) that he got it and took it))

I can try though, can't I Gwyneth ?
Thanks for your calm and unemotional posting. Respect despite disagreement. What every forum should be based on. My apologies for getting irritable.

Its not a matter of giving people a chance, PG. Its a matter of ensuring that people are aware of the difference between two entirely different Groups of people. Those who are anonymous and those who are not. Those who are accountable and those who are not. Bit like warning people against buying a car from a used car dealer who insists on giving you nothing but a mobile phone number, registered in who-knows-what-name. No business address, no checkable name, nothing.

If Philip had sold his cars like that, shouldn't it have been pointed out? (Did you Philip ? )

In this case the Lindens have even POINTED OUT the risks, and warned that such a person could easily take all the assets entrusted to them. And they have WARNED that (at least at present) they will not intervene, or punish, or supply any recompense.

Slight change of topic:
Are you aware how rich and powerful (in SL terms) the main "misleading advertiser" is? This is not the "brave little man" struggling against the odds to get somewhere. Fly around. Read the for-sale signs you find lying everywhere. This person is a HUGE success. I for one have big respect for such success, provided it is free of sharp practice. That's the question. Is it free of sharp practice ? We are trying to find out.

lindar, 'trying to find out' sounds so wonderful reasonable and considerate; even if one may question, what committee is that 'we' but when reading your posts, its somewhat hard to see, what your are 'trying to find out'. maybe it is just a matter of me missunderstanding some words in a language i learned later in my life - but i get the impression that you are already rather sure of your opinions .

lindar, SL is a game. it is a virtual world. yes, not the real one. and in the real world the lindens are no pantheon of gods, philip isn't even a gouvernor - and anshe is not a faceless, heartless international corporation. yes, in SL she is by far the most successful land baron. but ...

anshechung.com is exactly the kind of mom-and-pop-business we all so much like in the real world, a small company, successful, growing fast. one of the kind of companies which actually create most of the jobs worldwide

To be honest Pham, I have come to it slowly and reluctantly, but my mind is fairly close to being made up, yes. Its that whole first page of "Starter Land" ads that did it, specifically for "those under 30 days old". Directly after Robins post telling Blaze not to do it. Try as I can, I just cant see that as acceptable behaviour.

I think the only thing that would change that reluctant conclusion now is some evidence that LL did indeed promise her she could do that, or actually "gave her the nod" more recently. But how can I find that out ? **

And even then - did it really have to be those "under 30 days old". A whole page, when everyone else was showing restraint? I just CAN"T see that as innocent. So help me, I'd REALLY prefer it if I could.

______________________________________________

Edit: ** thats what I meant by "We are trying to find out." Sorry about the "we". There are quite a lot of others who agree with me, but you are right, I should stick to "I". Sigh.

nice style, Lindar. TY for that.

and please forgive me the pun with that "we". maybe it just hit a nerve with me. sounds so officious i will show more restraint in the future.

thank you, Lindar. thats a nice style not common today in the forums.

forgive me the pun with the "we". maybe it just hit a nerve with me. sounds so officious i will try to show some more restaraint in the future.

your judgement is based on your opinion, that there is a clear decision or at least policy from the Lindens on this issue, which is violated by Anshe. i dont think so (see /130/5f/45376/2.html#post483207 ff.) - some forum members see it like me, others not. the current and forthcoming policy by LL on this issue may have a lot of reasons. a conspiracy or a secret aggreement is just one possibility; a very implausible one to me

I absolutely agree with you - pretty implausible. Though others here (Prok ? hmmmm) have claimed that she secured such an agreement, which I am calling secret because no-one will confirm or deny its existence. I am scraping the barrel here for explanations, though aren't I? If I cant find one, I am left with the conclusion that I am trying to avoid. That Anshe is simply defying them. And thus obtaining short-term commercial advantage over her more restrained rivals in the few days left before this exploit is closed (as promised) by the next patch. How can she be so short sighted? It doesn't seem rational.

If there is a good explanation for her apparent defiance (and you and I are agreed that all the explanations I have found to consider are pretty weak) she could always post here to tell us. One way to reduce the bad press at a stroke. If good explanation she has. Maybe not.

Its not enough to claim, via some silly Proky twist of words, that Blaze was not forbidden. The other two points cannot be so twisted. "It is misleading". "They are not sales". They are enough alone. After that, anyone who does it can be fairly branded as carrying out misleading advertising, and misrepresenting the nature of the product.

I think Gwyneth described the nature of things on this issue very elogently. There is not much I would have to add to her postings.

I will certainly continue advertising my land sales at what they are with the proper tools that are currently available to do so. I do so in one clear, honest and not at all misleading way.

This also includes my offerings of Starter Land to young avatars. I enjoy happy customers and I even more enjoy happy newbie customers. And "Ansheland" has been very rewarding in this respect: I have received nothing but positive feedback.

Also, while anonymity is the standard for businesses inside Second Life, I am not anonymous to the land owners in "Ansheland".

Please refer to my post at
/130/5f/45376/3.html#post484125

Still reading through the thread (already agree it was a tad bad move on SL's part to change this without informing it's *most likely* highest "playing/paying investor".. But I'll comment more on that after I am finished with the thread.

However, I just came to this post by you Anshe. I went to http://anshechung.com/ and could not verify any real life information about you. I mean, I have your word here in this forum post that this is how you are able to "back" your promise to your rental customers. But in the end it is simply that... words. There is no way for me to verify what you are stating is true. And that would be why some people would possibly be wary of "renting" from you (buying of course is a whole other issue that would not require such *trust*). Without that information, you really are still just an "anonymous avatar".

Do you have this type of information about your business somewhere public? Is it just not on the anshechung website? Or is it there and I'm just missing it?

Thanks for any clarification!

So far I think this is the best idea to help with this issue! Though I may even take it a step further and make 3 tabs: "Linden Land Sales", "Player Land Sales", "Player Land for Rent"

I don't think LL rents any land, but if they do it would be easy enough to add a fourth tab. But to me the 3 tabs make it pretty clear who is doing the selling, or if land in the listing is only for "rent".

Ahh! Now I really see your predicament! You have all these private islands together and some land you RENT other land you SELL. But because they are considered "private islands" even the land you actually SELL would not be able to be listed under the new rules. Yes, even more so I think the seperate tabs thing would be a good idea. And I'm personally curious to see how this is all handled as I know the Neaultenburg sim is about to take a very similar approach to what you describe you do with your land Anshe.

I have a feeling this idea is going to catch on and would be good if some better tools were already in place to help with the advertising of these land sales and rentals so new people know where to go!

Hmm.. I thought when people bought a private island, they could parcel it up and SELL the parcels just as they can on the mainland. Thus transfering ownership of *that* parcel to a new owner. How our the private islands different than the mainland? I guess I'm totally missing something here.

Excellent! suggestion Pendari - I like it, 3 tabs!

Ok, Robin just answered my last question. hehe.. Back to my reading and no more comments till I finish.

I just posted a question to Robin for the upcoming Town Hall meeting.

The way I see this issue is very simple. Imagine a world where most of it are private sims and use mechanisms similar to the ones Anshe (and others) are using right now. LL still makes a profit from charging for the private sim, of course, so the finantial success of LL is not threatened by this.

But the value of the L$ certainly is.

Under this system, people will pay for land usage in US$ (which won't go to LL's bank account, as tier payment does). This means less L$ in circulation (as opposed to renting and paying in L$). Also, people like Anshe really haven't any way to exchange the millions of L$ they earn for US$ - they need alternate ways to invest in SL that gives them a profit - a profit in US$, not in L$. They will appeal to people who are willing to pay US$ for services. This will undervalue the L$ pretty quickly. Soon, shops will appear that will accept micro-payments in US$ instead of demanding L$. This could be so easily done in SL Exchange, Second Server or SL Boutique, which already operate "outside" the virtual world. Look towards 2006 or 2007 - not the next 2 or 3 weeks - and extrapolate. Most of the money in circulation could be in US$ by then - the L$ will be mostly used by newbies and for very small payments, since for the large ones, people will only accept US$ and not difficult-to-convert L$.

Please understand that I'm not condemning the people who are going to get rich I'm always for rewarding people who work 80-100 hours a week in SL, lol - they certainly deserve a way to get paid for that work! This is a way to earn real US$ from your work, by sidestepping the issue of not "flooring" the GOM market (or any of the other banking systems). However, it has the side-effect of rendering the L$ virtually worthless.

I think that the consequences should be really studied a bit. Or perhaps I'm also worrying too much. After all, some people are already being paid IRL to work with SL as a platform (beyond LL's employees, of course). The same principle applies to them - they're paid in Euros or US$, not L$, and thus, their work in-world is not contributing to the SL economy, since they're being paid off-world...

And now I'm slightly drifting off-topic from this thread, but I hope you see what I'm aiming at. The more business transactions are done outside SL, the less value the L$ is going to have in the long run. And none of us want that, I think.

So, should we worry?

Yep Gwyneth - I've been proposing a new TOS to clarify all this for weeks, even in this thread somewhere back around msg. #143ish.


Posted at Possible solution to the Sim sales issue Msg. #11
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LL Revise TOS Prior To Changing
I propose that Linden Lab (LL) change nothing at this time.

I propose that LL first revise the TOS to disclose in writing the operation and definitions all aspects of land transactions in SL, clarify their legal and fiduciary responsibilities regarding all player purchases from LL effected in SL.

I propose that the drop down now in place via. the land for sale tab be left exactly as is, and that no additional category for Private Sim sales be set up in the LL selling tools.

When/if LL decides it is in their best business interest to make changes then I propose they revise and publish the TOS prior to implementing a new way of doing business.

(As Alysa said, there have been 8+ pages of discussion with lots and lots of confusion).

Rational:
Players have invested time and money in SL for many reasons, including Private Sims - most of which have not been purchased for subdividing and re-sale. A few players are buying private sims to make US$ profits, most are not. For LL to change how land for sale, including Private Sims, is sold-listed-categorized-marketed because a small group of Private Sim customer/owner-players who are re-leasing their private sims and are not happy with LL is, for LL to change without a prior TOS revision would be very poor management and not in the best interest of the SL player base.

_/_/

xposted to Is Linden Lab Selling or Renting Land?
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And a rose is still a rose!

Well, actually, Robin "defined" what LL thinks about "land sales" on private sims.

Although she's also a bit misleading - deliberately The ToS allows LL to reclaim your land & property at any time, without any questions, and without refunding you (see Item 7.1 on the ToS). There is no real "ownership" of land/property in SL except for copyright ownerships.

Let me refresh your memory:

Linden has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to suspend or terminate your Account, terminate this Agreement, and/or refuse any and all current or future use of the Service without notice or liability to you.[...]you understand and agree that: (a) you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription, any Land Use Fees, any Linden Dollars (L$) that you hold, or for anything else [...] although, if you own LL some money, LL will first try to sell your land and pay your debts to them with the land sales.

So, basically, this states that the ownership of the land is truly LL's - and not yours - and they can do whatever they wish with it, and, by signing the ToS, you have forfeited any rights to your land.

Now, what is the difference between this agreement between LL and yourself, and an Estate Owner (owner of a private sim) selling land to a resident?

You see, Pendari, from a "legal" point of view, it's precisely the same thing. The only difference in this case is trust. You trust LL more than Anshe, because they've created the platform, and Anshe didn't - but this is merely subjective. LL will not "just remove your land" because they're in a bad mood; that would be terrible for their business if they did this randomly and without reason.

But then again - the same applies to Anshe & others! The "distrust" people may feel for someone who is "anonymous" is merely subjective. I mean, from my personal point of view - I cannot fly over to SF to look at LL's buildings - Anshe is "as real" as Linden Lab I trust both because of what they do; not because "Anshe Chung" is a pseudonym for a real person, and "Linden Lab" is an invented name that allegedly represents a company somewhere in SF

Just as a side note - Neualtenburg will be "deeding land" under a "covenant", for Citizens who are subject to a Constitution and who participate by voting and being elected in a City Government which defines the organisation of the sim - which will work, in RL terms, as a co-op, and landowners/citizens are really co-op members. So, there are some slight differences (We abandoned the idea of creating an international company to "own" the private sim - yes, we're that crazy - but really, the effort and cost of setting it up was not worth the trouble)

I agree Merwan, in that I think it would be good for them to implement a new way to advertise these rentals and sales before taking away current tools. Of course means that some may get duped in the meantime, but if they are clear that it is ok to list these things in Land Sales till the changes, then others that are not doing so already could do so. I tend to be optomistic that it would not be abused much before they could get the changes in. hehe..

hey Gwyneth!! Yes, I know that Neault is going to be something *similar* but a bit different. I think the outcome of this issue will certainly affect our advertising though. So I am curious to see what happens.

And yes, I know that technically I don't "own" the land that I buy from LL. Just as I don't "own" my website space that I get from my host. It is mearly mine to use as long as I make payments and they still offer the service.

But it in all honesty it is to me just splitting hairs to call it owning/leasing/etc and so on.

When I lease/buy/rent .. whatever you want to call it.. From LL, I know that I am doing so from a company that I can look up publicly and learn information about. Run them by the BBB, and other RL tools that allow me to make a valid decision on if I trust them or not with my monthly money investment.

A player in world though, who has a business but has no RL information available for me to check and validate the trust and worth of this person, then I am simply relying on word of mouth. And who knows if those mouths do not come from the same person while they are using a different name.

I am NOT saying this is what Anshe or anyone else is doing. I am only saying that I can see it as a valid reason why other residents of SL would be much more wary to buy from a "Player" with no way to validate RL information, than they would to buy from LL which is a company that you can easily run checks on in RL.

I personally have no issues with people choosing one over the other. But in all honesty, there *is* a difference here as Robin explained. If I "buy" land on someone's private island, they can take it away from me at ANY time. Well, yes so can LL. But again, who am I going to trust more. LL or someone I have no idea is who they say they are?

So yes, to me there is some risk involved. I think however these models open wonderful things for the future of SL. So my only hope is that it can be better explained to new people (and even us slow oldbies) so that residents of SL can make their own educated, informed, individual opinions.

Business is about trust

I certainly agree that a "real company" like Linden Lab, being around since 1999 or so, will have a larger "trust level" than someone having arrived at the "virtual real estate business" a year ago or so.

Then again, every day in RL I buy books, CDs, software, even clothes, from "virtual shops" on the net that I have no idea who they are (specially if I buy from eBay or so) or worse than that, I may not even have the ability to look them up on a RL directory or so, if they're listed on a different country.

So, in all these cases, I have to "trust" this "virtual entity" as much as I trust the shop across the street where I buy my groceries. As a Visa customer, I have always the right to cancel my payment if the seller does not deliver the goods/services as promised.

In terms of "land sales", I think that exactly the same happens. From my personal point of view, both Linden Lab and Anshe Chung are "e-commerce" - virtual "sellers" in a virtual universe. US residents - specifically the ones living in SF or nearby - have the option to drive over to the company's headquarters and see that the company exists physically. Or they can look it up with the kind of tools that Pendari referred. This will make Linden Lab more "trustworthy" to the eyes of people needing "physical existence" to be confident.

On the other hand, as an "old" buyer of things through the Internet, I trust almost every e-seller implicitly. The time I was not so trustful has come and went a decade ago or more. Although I certainly don't spend so much money these days on Internet-based sales as I used to before the recession, I did never have a problem with either "frauds" or "scams" - and I bought things from big, multinational companies with the same ease as from private individuals, sitting behind their computers.

My point is, buying land from a resident has precisely the same degree of "confidence" than buying from Linden Lab -- it's just a question of subjective trust. Although I certainly agree that most people don't think that way. Overcoming the barrier of lack of trust will be the biggest obstacle.

Then again, millions did it on the Web; and Anshe and others only need to get a handful of people to buy with them (while Linden Lab needs dozens of thousands).

Anyay, it will be interesting to watch

As a side-note, Neualtenburg, which for all effects is giving people the ability to own a share of a private sim, has been attracting a handful of interested parties, well before an "official announcement" of the availability of shares - the sim is not fully parcelled yet. So perhaps we're lucky, we're already attracting people trusting us

Wonderful post. Sums it up beautifully. And it is refreshing to read all of your posts, because they all show a unagitated, very relaxed and sensible attitude to the issue, that is missing with a lot of the other articles.

Neualtenburg (funny name for a German), Ansheland, Meins and other projects are great experiments for the future of Second Life. Some of them will succeed, others not, like it is with experiments. But I am sure that we need new models for development and redistribution of land - just because with a growing SL the Lindens won't have the resources for long to do it all themselves.

Besides: Even if they could do it themselves I like the variety that these new models bring into the game. And I think LL should support as much of the new ideas as possible! And dont hamper them. In the long run, these experiments will be good for Lindens. (Some may contain a risk, but I am still waiting for an example of the poor newbie, that has been a victim to a "missleading" advertisement.)

It will be exciting, to hear what Robin has to say on all that today on the Townhall meeting.