Newbie protection: Private-island sub-leased "starter plots" targetted at Newbies.

Ahh, but spinning what a Linden said to fit one's agenda is so much more fun!

I must admit: Prok's interpretation is, unfortunately, correct. The newest post from Robin clarifies their stance. Can't wait for the patch.

Can we have the url to that posting, please , Ardith? Is it in the hotline?

It doesn't seem as quoted to reverse in any way her previous statement that these ads are misleading, or to remove her forbidding Blaze to do it. "Other ads" cannot possibly refer to the Land sales list. That is not "other". It was just being specifically discussed in detail. Such an interpretation would reduce that earlier posting to nensense, and is so perverse as to be bizarre.

Even disregarding that, to insist on using a practice declared to be misleading, and to be removed asap for that reason, is morally wrong, and sharp business practice. Its not as if this had been going on for years, and people had got used to it. This is a dishonesrt and unseemly grab at a short-lived opportunity to take advantage, and as such is a disgrace. IT IS MISLEADING. "Oh, thats nice, I'll do it just the same"

I dont accept your interpretation for a moment, but if others do, can we now expect a flood of similar ads leaping in, to similarly seize this opportunity to be misleading? I think not. Because most sim-owners are more honorable than that, and would not stoop to such sharp practice.

/invalid_link.html

The above hotline post by me was answered a bit ago. It seems all this won't matter in a few days. Yay!

I'm sorry, it will still matter in a few days time.

It will matter to Anshe's reputation, and it will matter to what we feel about how open the Lindens in handling tricky situations.

The fact that the Robin is prevaricating, even slightly, in her second post worries me.

The first post was very clear. "It is misleading. They want it stopped. Blaze shouldn't do it."

And yet they won't quite come out and take the inevitable next step and say Anshe must stop. Why, I ask myself ?

I only see three possibilities.

1. They are afraid to antagonise her, because she has sufficient financial muscle to destabilise the whole network ie they are too afraid to enforce justice

or

2. They don't wish to antagonise her because they value her continued investment. ie they are too poor to enforce justice

or

3. They did indeed make her a promise (as she came very close to claiming) that if she bought these sims she could advertise in the list until they had a fix.

I need to think about 1 and 2. But if its 3 then I have, at least in part, been criticising her unfairly, and that always matters.

We need this cleared up. The Lindens claim to be open, but in this they are not. By their silence and unwillingness to speak sufficiently clearly to meet the "prok" standard they may be exposing Anshe to unfair criticism for using the list (if it's 3 above). By the "prok" standard I mean so that not even that estimable and ingenious gentleman can manage a reverse interpretation.

So it's not over when the exploit is blocked. In fairness to Anshe's reputation we need to know whether she was indeed doing this on a "private nod", or whether she was just arrogantly exploiting, for her own commercial advantage, LL's difficulty in, or reluctance to, stop her.

Hold on, Ardith, I still cant find this "new post which clarifies their stance" and makes "Proks interpretation correct". Your link leads to nothing but a one liner that says the patch is coming soon.

Please - where is this vital new clarifying post which changes everything? Your quote of it just seems to be a selected part of the old post.

Edit : Oh whoops, thats Kismet's link, not Ardith's - I'll search some more

Robin did not take the vindictive, punitive approach that some of you are taking.

She ducked, and said only this:



"The change" is the ruination of the possibility of listing in "land for sale" any private island deeded or deedable parcel, I presume -- but that wasn't said.

I don't know if "the change" will also include a new robust, vigorous, easy-to-use classifieds ad system in the game -- I imagine that is something a little harder to do than just in a patch a few days away LOL.

I didn't "spin" what a Linden said. I reported on what they said, which seemed to leave the door open to continued use of the list in this fashion.

Coco really summarized it up well. There aren't any victims, and it worked the way it should. splat summed it up well too.

Vultures were circling, but had nowhere to land.


3. They did indeed make her a promise (as she came very close to claiming) that if she bought these sims she could advertise in the list until they had a fix.

This is my understanding of what they implied, yes.

While you were all yammering, at least Nexus and splat got a sim sold out. LOL.

OK , I found it. It was in response to a hotline question by ME. The last place I would look, lol.

It's here:
/invalid_link.html

In my opinion it in no way withdraws their injunction to Blaze not to do it. He asked if he could do something, They said "No".

I asked them to stop something, specifically related to Newbie vulnerability. Their reply was that they are about to make it impossible. They aren't going to tell me if they have told Anshe to stop, and she is defying them.

Unlike Blaze, I didn't ask if I could do it myself. So they didn't tell me to not to.

When you read the question asked, you see that the answer neither alters what was in Blaze's reply, nor diminishes it. They gave their ruling. To defy it for gain is disgraceful.

Unless there was a private agreement of which we are not being told.

A good example of the dangers of posting a reply without even a link to the question.

I didn't see any "injunction" against blaze.

What Robin's original reply to him did was outline that they were changing it. It didn't come out full-bore as a "thou shalt not do this now or else".

How could it? Because it is doable, and to make it undoable, they'd have to drop what they are doing, and halt the game, and stick in a patch, which they are going to do anyway.

So they obviously weren't going to CARE very much about beating everybody in the list now with a stick. More power to them if they managed to sell their properties and get those sims moving even in this anti-business climate, with such vindictive residents ready to run them out of town on rail.

I notice that Hiro, who has postured here mightily as "the better baron" has a big fat ad up now saying "the deed is as permanent as the tenant wishes it" -- neatly skirting the issue of whether it is a "sale" or a "purchase" or "what" a deed is when you get a "deed" (the very word implies ownership.

It's clear to me that the Lindens, who were planning to change this, weren't going to browbeat -- in the matter of the self-styled protectors of newbs on these boards -- any player who used this system.

blaze was one of those types who asks for permission before doing something. He got a sort of not-so-clear "well, we're not going to be doing this". Anshe meanwhile who had bought way more sims already than blaze (blaze's purchase amounted to: 0 sims) went ahead an used to land list for promotion of her offer. She's getting the sims sold. So is Nexus. Great! Lots of happy people all around.

The Lindens are closing off this considerable capacity of advertising, at the clamouring of some FIC types, but we still have no clue whether they will accompany that essentially punitive action with a robust, in-game classifieds ads listing system for rentals and all such land offerings. I'm thinking probably not....

They'll be rushing to close off some capacity that was found to finally move some land along in this game at a clip...at the behest of 2.5 players and their alts...but I'm thinking they won't rush to make it possible to do this advertising anywhere else...but perhaps they'll surprise me?

When Robin said "other in game", she was referring to "other than land sales listings". You are spinning it like crazy. That would be like someone going thru a speech saying "drugs are bad" and then ending it up with "hey if you need to escape your problems read a book, watch a movie or other things to entertain yourself" then someone saying "other things" included using drugs. Why the hell would she say all the things about not using land sales listings for island rentals and then at the end say "oh use land sales listings for island rentals"? She didnt. You are spinning. Period.

I remember her simply saying she "assumed the feature would still be there". If you have a link to her saying she was promised I'd love to read it. I've read posts from OTHERS claiming she was promised but how would they know what was said. I want to see where she said it herself.

You are an asshole, Lindar.

Maybe you're right. I took it as I took. It could indeed be read it that way. I read it that way, because it was there to be read that way, through no special spinning.

What we *can* be sure of, is she didn't say:

"Anshe, you fraudster you, back off business girl, feel my wrath."

"blaze, there's a good lad, go and sit in the back of the class now until I'm ready to hear your report."

"Lindar, you're a marvel, where *have* you been all my life? You're so incisive, and witty, and I bet your avatar is cute too!"

"Kismet, it's fate. You haven't been active in the game since June 2004, without a single plus, but now, I will come and plus plus plus you and tell all my friends to plus plus plus you."

"Prokofy, I'm putting you on mute!"

"All of you, go to your rooms, I'm punishing all of you!"

No, she didn't say any of those things, did she? She just said they're changing it in the next patch.

Lindar, even though it may seem impossible to you, but there actually may be a lot of other alternatives. even if you don't like it, what's with - for example:
this list of possible alternative reminds of a little joke question:

"have you finally stopped beating your wife? please only answer with yes or no! we don't want any excuses! we don't have time for discussions!"

I believe that you are posting your comments and questions out of real concern for newbies and other players. but setting up "alternatives" where each is implying your own opinion about the matter (that it is wrong and misleading to change anything with the current system especially when using the word "sale" in connection what some of the land owners are doing in private sims) is an interesting rethoric trick. but it doesn't helps much in evaluating the questions at hand.

yes! and the reason why this has not happened until today might very well be, that Linden Labs hasn't decided yet, what is the right way to support alternative ways of owning/buying/selling land (or, if you would prefer, leasing, renting ...) within the system - and not that they cower in fear in front of a well known resident - which fullfills a very important function in the economy of second life, IMHO. but which is not all that powerfull in relation to the size of the whole SL economy.

please take a calm look at the economic statistics for SL and compare the volumes to the size of Anshe's business. your assumptions "she has sufficient financial muscle to destabilise the whole network" or "they value her continued investment. ie they are too poor to enforce justice" are at least somewhat ... farefetched, I think

i am astonished at it sometimes, too: the different opinions other people have (contrasting mine) really can have other causes than malice, greed, egoism, cowardice etc. sometimes they simply see things differently. and sometimes they are even right - and I am wrong.

The difficulty with this one is that it isn't in any sense an answer to the question I am asking. The question is:

"Why did LL publicly forbid one landowner (Blaze) from doing something, but then apparently fail to intervene when Anshe went right ahead and did it?"

That, and only that, is what my possibilities 1, 2, and 3 are about. (Possibilities. Didnt claim they were true, as you seem to think).

Perhaps you didn't realize that was the question I was asking ?

This is a possibility I'm perfectly willing to consider, Guni. But you need to give me a bit more to go on.

lindar, thank you for the revelation, what the real question behind this thread (or this one post?) was forgive me my nearsightedness but even after checking this whole thread i could not find this question, other than in your reply to my post. but thats understandable. emotions seem to fly high with this issue and the discussion sometimes leaves a little confusion.

again: i still think its rather unlikely that LL is pressured into some decision like this by a resident, even a powerful one like anshe, because even her business with them is relatively small compared to SL as a whole. and your new questions "forbid one landowner (Blaze) from doing something, but then apparently fail to intervene when Anshe" implies something (Lindens consciously handling two identical cases in a different way) that seems to be at least debatable - when I look at the other posts in this and other threads.

the usual - often not very easy - distinction between fact and opinion. which does not mean, that i see it a problem, when someone has an opinion. on the contrary. (i have lots ) it's just nice to separate the two.

hmmm. i checked your post again. the list of possibilities started with "I only see three possibilities". and, if i am not completely confused again, this means, that the "truth" is one of the three alternatives?!

whereas I see some other viable alternatives still

The only other possible reason I can think of for them treating two people differently and unfairly in this way is that they are lazy, idle, uncoordinated and just hoped it would go away.

I'd be fascinated to hear of any other possibilities you can put forward, Pham. I've run through my list to the end.

But you know, Pham, like so many others here, you only want to talk at a slight tangent, don't you? Why not go read the post to blaze? Go see the list of adverts to the Newbies, on a page which has the words "sales", "sale", "bought", "buy" twice, and includes the instructions:
"Land can be bought direct for Linden dollars (L$) or at auction for either L$ or US$. To buy direct, visit the land and click on the place name in the title bar"

And remember that Robin Linden has already stated that these are rentals, not sales, and that to post them here is misleading, and should not be done. Any two out of those three is enough to make it wrong, Though I assert all three, I know one poster has twisted and turned to try reverse one of them. Even if you buy that, two is enough.

Go stick your neck out. Unless the Lindens had a secret agreement with her, which places the blame on them instead, this behaviour is WRONG. Yes or No Pham ? Why will no-one but me say? Surely the evidence is there, first hand, sufficient for a decision ? Why the hesitation ? I just don't understand it.

It's WRONG, YES or NO ?
Anshe is in the wrong unless The Lindens had a secret deal with her ? Yes ?

How much clearer can I make it for you all ?

I have little hope of a straight answer from any of you any more, not picking on you, Pham. This is all teaching me a salutary lesson.

i like clearcut questions answers follow! attention: these answers are opinions, not statements of 'fact':
NO, it is not wrong! as long as there is no better solution available, i am all for listing land in private sims in the landlistings. NO, i dont see big problems if this is done under the label "sale". a better differentation is desirable (and i have argued for it elsewhere) but not that urgent to hold the listings. if the lindens would see this different, it would be VERY easy to enforce such a decision, so that no parcel on a private sim could even be stored in the respective database tables. no new version of the client is neccesary for that. few lines of code on the server side.

this is a hard question to answer with yes/no because it is a connotation of more then one question (you seem to like that ). let me try it that way: NO, Anshe is not 'wrong'. she is acting at least in 'good faith'. she is doing something which makes sense in my opionion. she is offering a product/service for which there is market-demand at a marketable price. and this service makes sense to LL, too. maybe they thought differently at first. maybe they have seen the light now. i don't know. sadly enough i can't read philip's or other lindens mind (i would really like that).

and NO, i don't think there is a 'secret deal'; but how would i know?

YES, i love conspiration theories. they have great entertainment value!

and YES, i know, you have different opions, Lindar. why not just leave it at that and wait some days till LL implements the changes in a new version? all arguments habe been exchanged. and the forum members are NOT the governing body of SL

Hmmm....

So its not wrong for Anshe to disobey the Lindens, because its convenient and to her advantage, and they haven't given her an alternative quickly enough? Can't wait ten days. She can substitute her judgement for theirs, if they can't change the technology quickly enough to prevent her, eh?

That might be ok for a rebel, with no ties and responsibilities. But this person is administering justice to residents in her own sim. Asking to hold thousands of real dollars for them. With no checks on her power whatever. Her word is law on any dispute. Yet she doesnt respect HER "landlords" rulings ?

This casts not the slightest shadow of unease in your mind?

What if she REALLY falls out with them next time, and they suspend her avie for a month. All land "sales" by residents in her sim would be frozen. And if she got TOTALLY freaked out with the Lindens, and just sold the lot and walked, where would that leave the residents? These things can happen with a volatile and defiant personality, willing to disobey for private, maybe even ego-defence , reasons.

Disobedience to authority isn't wrong in one who seeks to wield it herself?

Go visit some RL courts and prisons. See how many are languishing in jail for mishandling sums much smaller than here involved. The safety of these assets is not a trivial matter to many people, no matter who the landowner may be.

You're starting down a dangerous road with this "justifying rule breaking by expedience" argument, Pham. An argument which in RL brings many to a sad end, and to society's opprobrium.

Precisely the attitude I suspect, and seek to condemn.

Your not DEFENDING her from my suspicions, Pham. Your confirming them and JOINING her.

By the way, thankyou for a nice straight answer, Pham

Did it escape your attention, Pham, that other landowners who could have posted to the list obeyed, and refrained, and probably lost tenants ?
Where they stupid ? Naive ?
Should they have joined in, flooding the bottom of the list with two or three more pages ? With some at $0 if it was true no up-front charge was levied ?

Above all, since you like simple single questions without conditionals, was their action in refraining more moral, or less moral?

More, or less ?

Lindar, thanks for making it clear that in fact all your crusade here is just about harming my business and my reputation. Whoever you are, or whoever's alt you are: reading your recent posts nobody can miss what you are actually up to.

I will certainly continue listing my sales as sales. After the user interface change, which was not driven by my use of the sales listing but by the fear that less trustworthy people could use the same feature in a negative way, I will follow Robin Linden's advice and continue advertising my sales on the forums, on websites and via in game advertising networks.

My Starter Land plots have become very popular. Without even starting to advertise them yet, there are many happy residents in Ellies Island already. You can cry "foul" and "bad" as much you want: the newbies are not as stupid as you think they are. They are able to understand what one good deal is and are too intelligent to fall for your negative propaganda.

Lindar,

You keep claiming that blaze was "told not to do this". But he was not directly told "not to do this" -- your statements are misleading.

He was given a generic answer about how the Lindens also had their issues with this "island deed=sale" issue, and he was told, generically, how they were going to change it.

Could I point out that blaze is not an island customer. He has $0 purchases. So the Lindens wouldn't be telling him to do one thing or another while they are the process of working this issue.

Your notion that there are all these landowners who selflessly and heroically volunteered not to be in the land sales list sounds like a load of unadulterated horseshit. Where are these fine souls? I see Hiro Queo saying coquettishly in his classifieds ads "the deed is as permanent as you like it" on *just* this sort of deal. I dunno, my RL properties come to me with something called a "deed". A deed, in my states in my country means I paid money and had liens removed, etc. and took ownership of the land, so it's in my name, and I pay taxes on it. When I rent an apartment or office space, however, while I pay money, the paper that comes to me is called "lease". Silly me, but RL experience and the actual bills I pay and purchase I make lets me know that "deed" and "lease" are different words. Yet you're silent about Hero Hiro's actions, just because he's joined you in saying this is "wrong" and appears not to have his islands on the list. I don't see him losing tenants -- and that's what they are, in your book -- *at all*. He's done what Robin has implied, and advertised in classifieds. But why aren't you chasing him over to classifieds, given your point of view, and screaming "foul" over his use of the word "deed"?

I'm sure not screaming foul. I'm happy that Hiro is improving the overall Purina situation by providing great alternatives in what look like really lovely, and thoughtfully designed places. More power to him! If he wants to put those things in land sales -- by all means, do! If he wants to call them "deeds" -- hey, I'm a grownup, I can figure out he means a kind of long-term lease in a game with pixels. Come on!

I'm still trying to figure out the enormous energy on this issue available for fighting. I'm thinking that perhaps it will turn out to be the most lucrative land dales in the history of SL. That must be it. I recall how Cristiano argued with me about this issue and ended up screaming SHUT THE FUCK UP over it, because I thought it was fine for them to list in the sales list and he didn't. I recall how blaze wasted hours in the game polling newbies and rushing out to visit my properties because I noticed that my land set to $0 for sale to myself was showing up in my list (it wasn't showing up in any one else's list, as it turned out, it's just a game glitch or perhaps just a feature that helps them keep track of who has picked up their auction parcels.)

I really think it's long since time to put this issue to rest. What has been revealed more than anything is not the capacity for fraud in this game, not the harm of newbies, but the capacity for a few overzealous individuals to monopolize the stage and everyone's time on a really dubious crusade, that is about some hidden agenda of theirs.

I am Prokofy's alt at Ku;
Pray tell, kind sir, whose alt are you?