Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

I'd say what makes them safer is the fact that they own the servers and the company the virtual land is on. They have control of the servers and the company.

Often LL crashes, or is down, or puts in a patch, and it demolishes people's ability to play their game. So they are just like that iffy landlord you think is among those who rent or sell on private islands.

I disagree that it is so easily to get screwed. A renter in a sense consents to a rental agreement when he right-clicks and pays the box you yourself have scripted for this use, and get the terms that have been put on the config card. In addition, there is a card that hte landowner can write up with the terms, benefits, and policies, as I do, and each renter clicks and gets that card, which is like a lease. So they have something to go by in expecting terms to be met. If they press the box, they get a refund. If they rent a 1024 with a certain house, it won't be reduced to a 512 on them, etc.

Of course, anything can and does happen to players attempting businesses but I think your nightmare scenario isn't realistic. Landlords who rent pay tier, and it is tier that covers them for the month ahead. So even if a brick falls on them, the renter can stay put on that property, and nothing will happen to him until the month is up. In most cases, people pay a week or at most a month in advance. That's prudent. They can be fairly certain that way that the land they are on will stay put even if the owner dies, because his paid tier bill holds it up to a point. Then what have they lost? Nothing but a rental opportunity. They can move on to the next rental opportunity.

As for appeals, well, a tenant has little they could do, I suppose, to complain about a landlowner not keeping to his side of the deal, but it's much simpler than that. Most landlords do keep to their pledges because they want their customers to stay and they want to build up a reputation.

When LL destroys or inhibits, it is to correct a problem or by accident.

If a land sub-leaser packed up, cashed out, and left, that would be deliberate.

Bluntly, I'm not willing to risk my money and my time at the whims of random people on the internet when it's not needed. In this case, land sub-leasers simply add an extra, un-needed layer of rules, regulations, and doubt.

You have rights if you buy land in "Ansheland". Those rights are both guaranteed and limited by the government of "Ansheland". Think of the whole of Second Life as one nation with states. The national governor is Philip. The "Ansheland" state is governed by Anshe. Other states are governed by other people. The mainland is federal territory like Washington D.C.

When you set foot to "Ansheland" and buy land you vote with your feet for this state and its local government. You also agree to its laws. You buy rights to resell your land, build on your land and so on. While in theory you could be up to one negative experience if the local government suddenly goes mad (which in theory also could happen to the national government of the Lindens), in practise you enjoy one strong level of protection due to competition between different states.



What if the Lindens don't like you or San Francisco has one earthquake? The current value of all my investments in Second Life is about 100000 US$. I am beginning to depend on SL as main source of income, and that being one person who also had successful RL carreer. I have as little motivation to sell "Ansheland" to the devil as Philip has reason to sell the mainland to the government of North Korea.



True. Some people prefer it over buying from LL. Having one "state government" to take care of things can be truly added value

There have been whole game companies that cashed out and left. Haven't the owners of There more or less cashed out to the U.S. military?



I agree. I also wouldn't risk my money and time with random people on the internet. I would seek out individuals or groups with one long standing reputation for doing fair, reliable and honest business

You missed the whole point about "needless layers". I only have so much trust to go around. It will cover one layer, not two.

Implement the For Lease tab FIRST.

THEN wipe all the leaseholders off the For Sale tab.

(Then add more and better tools for creating and enforcing conditional leases).

LL is doing the right thing. They're just doing it in the wrong order.

goodness Prokofy, by the time I'm done reading your posts I need to click refresh before posting a reply

Everyone,
What we're basicly discussing here, before things go too far off track, is the ability, in the future, to do what we are able to do right now. Deals made now were made on the presumption that the changes made in the future would be advancements, not set backs.

This also isn't Anshe against LL. Nor is it LL against Anshe. This is a decision that will affect ALL sim owners, private or no, who have plans to deed out sections to individuals.

While I can't speak for how others do their sales, they are capable of speaking for themselves, I can say what I know of my land in Victoria. The land is owned. As I see it, but both me, and Anshe. I have, as an owner, the right to resell my land, for any price I choose. I can build a Victorian house and fill it with Goth stuff if I choose (I haven't), I can plant trees, and even build a sky house at or above cloud level. I chose Victoria because of many reasons.. I love victorians. I live in a 104 yr old dollhouse style painted lady myself in the real world. When I saw the lots in Victoria, mostly islands with some wodded areas, I literally camped out on the lot I wanted to buy so it couldn't be taken by another before I could secure it. When SL went down that night (the infamous power outage) I didn't know what to think, there was no news posted as it was in the middle of the night. Finally after an hour and a half of pressing "connect" I went to bed.

However in this time it was down, I had lots of time to read and study just what it was I was getting myself into. I read Anshe's entire website (which was still up even tho LL's was down) as well as every forum post in her forums. I knew full well what it was I was doing, before it was done. Do Ihave regrets, absolutely not.

I commend Anshe and the many others that are doing in second life, exactly what second life is for.. All over this website Linden Labs tells us we can make this second life any way we choose. We can do here what we wish we could do in our first lives. Are any of these private sim owners doing anything different? Are any of us?? If we choose to play, we play.. if we chose business, we do business.

Anyone who invests 15,000 US$ is NOT going to up and disappear.


But let me ask all of you this question...and I expect MANY different answers. When you buy your land, why do you choose the lot that you choose? Location? Privacy? no ugly extremely laggy builds? What garantees that in 2 weeks your lot will still be that way? on the mainland, nothing. In a private Island, zoning does. And again, I can't speak for everyone, but on Anshe's, any changes made are put to a COMMUNITY vote, before they are made, if the majority of people disagree, it's NOT done. Simple as that.


As I see it, land for sale, is land for sale. Ideally we should be able to have multiple tabs for each type of land sale. Sometimes all that is ideal, isn't possible. Personally I dont use the land sales tab.. there's simply too much junk mixed in. I'm not interrested in first land, or auctions.. THAT is why there are different drop down choices to pick from.. to narrow this list. It would not be hard to add just one more drop down choice to include community zoned lots, private islands or however the consensus chooses to name it.

The main fact of the matter here, is OPTIONS... There are always options... and we should be able to pull together as a community of people with shared interests (SL) and come to a compromise that can benefit all. Easier said than done I know... but wouldnt' our time be better spent working towards a resolution than fighting and pointing fingers?


to Linden Labs, and Robin (only cause her name is the one mentioned). Listen to the all sides before forming a decision. Then talk with us, to help us understand the decision, whichever way it turns out. In the end, that's all we can ask for.. Now, that being said... Fundamentally, there is no difference if private Islands land sales are listed or not, on your business end. You get the tier paid each month, you get happy citizens, and you get people to bring in more people. How could this be bad? Growth of a shared interest is not bad. There are many things on the docket that are of much more importance at the time than to impede the future of Second Life.

Your customers have a voice, and we make it known when something like this arises. Please take the time needed to format an answer so that it is mutually beneficial. One that is well thought, and not cookie cutter.


Thank you

Some very well stated points, of which I'd like to comment on two:

Your key phrase "as I see it" is a mistaken perception. Insofar as the game mechanics can be viewed as the "laws", you aren't an owner as far as the server is concerned. You are a sub-lessee which the game does not strictly provide for. I rent at Gigas SuperMall and well know that I am at the whim of the proprietors. Interestingly, their rental system will not accept rent beyond a month in advance. I think this was intentional for the benefit of both lessor and lessee.

You probably haven't seen much business financing; US$15k is frequently walked away from. I am not saying that Anshe will intentionally walk away, but as far as I can see, anshe.com is a sole proprietorship (non-US based, so I have no idea what the implications of that are). In the event of accident or incapacity (it happens) Anshe's sub-lessees would have little recourse. Linden Lab, on the other hand, is a regulated California(?) Corporation and as such persists even in the event of alien abduction of one of the employees. There are those who say this may have already happened.

We are currently talking about 100k US$ in whole value of ANSHECHUNG.COM property in SL.



It is shared proprietorship between my love and me.



In that case my hubby would take over. If something happen to him too then his brother, who has not been involved with ANSHECHUNG.COM sofar, would be more than capable of graceful liquidation of the venture and distribution of proceeds. There are also ANSHECHUNG.COM staff, customers and friends who would be helpful in such very theoretical disaster situation.

We are currently exploring possibilities of doing what IGE has done in their market: opening one office and hiring customer support people in RL if "Ansheland" keep growing that fast and becomes really big by, say, end of summer.



At least as it is now, the implications are that you enjoy additional safety. Regulations in Germany are by far more strict than in the US.



I am confident "Ansheland" would survive my alien abduction if they at least leave hubby and the in world staff behind

And, btw, I appreciate your comments. It is good to bring up questions.

Thanks for the explanation, Anshe; it is good to know you have thought these issues through.

It's perceived value...

LL owns your account and avatar, you own nothing of LL's.

You are renting from them at their sole desecration - you are sub-letting their virtual land to your customers.

Due diligence of the TOS/CS makes ownership clear.

I'd suggest you incorporate that due dilligence statement in your virtual contracts with your customers.

_/_/

Thus Malachi I'll repeat myself.

LL owns all our accounts and avatars, we own nothing of LL's, and nothing inWorld.

All residents are leasing/renting from LL at their sole desecration - Anshe and others who then offer land/rentals etc are sub-letting their virtual land to their customers.

Due diligence of the TOS/CS makes ownership clear.

Seems to me it's time to disclose these facts as part of land - rentals/sublets, etc. as there seems to be lots and lots of miss-information.

_/_/

Exactly, you named it: all residents are leasing/renting from Linden Lab.

In that respect what Linden do is not different from what I do. The only difference is that I am value added reseller for land/services that originate from Linden Lab. So what? Linden Lab is value added reseller for services their ISP or server hosting company provides.

If Lindens can call their leases "sales" then I should have the right to do this too. And some people prefer buy from me instead directly from Linden Lab because the value I add better meets their expectations. I only see winners here and absolutely don't understand why some people try make things so hard for my customers and me.

HELLO..it's their game..I dont see Ashne Chung on Robin's paycheck.

Terminology aside, there is a difference. There are no contracts to enforce in SL, so the only assurance your customers have is your reputation. I don't think you would ever intentionally do anything to damage your professional reputation in SL, but as another commenter pointed out, there is a question of what would happen to your sims if something unfortunate happened to you. And if you decided to sell off all your sims some day and leave the game, where would that leave your "land owners"?

LL is a solid company with a good history of operation over several years and enough funding to keep it going for a good long while. They have a staff of people to care for servers, fix issues, deal with customers, recover from disasters, etc. While their prices may be higher than yours, they do offer value that you do not. Do you have a staff of people who can deal with issues in all time zones? Do you have contingency plans for if you get sick and can't log in to administer your land or enforce zoning rules?

I don't care about the terminology. I don't own any land in SL, rather I have certain server resources allocated to me for which I paid an up-front fee and continue to pay ongoing fees. That much may be the same for SL land or Anshe land, but there is much else that is different.

Since this has turned into a large business for you in which you have made a substantial investment, I would not be surprised to hear that you have a staff, plans etc. Perhaps you could take a moment to explain to us what your infrastructure is, what you guarantee to your customers, and how you plan to continue to server your customers if you can't personally be in-world for an extended time. It's not about terminology, it's about service and value.

There are a number of what's to your "So what?"

One is you or me doing business with LL does not imply or give us any rights. Your purchase of $100,000 US of virtual land, virtual private Sims from LL enables you play by the same rule as the person with a 512m parcel - your both play under the same TOS. Paying lots and lots of US$ does not buy or give you any rights under the present TOS - it makes you a good customer who has decided to buy private sims and resell them. Does not buy you any rights.

Another is you have no recourse with LL re: your customers, and your customer have no recourse with LL re: you. Should there be a problem with a business transaction between you and your customers, or your customer and you - both are under the terms and conditions of the same TOS. You have no authority to enforce anything inGame nor do your customers have any recourse should a transaction go bad when they buy from you.

A rose is a rose.

This is true. The same applies to people who lease/buy directly from Linden Lab though.



I answered that in one previous post.



They would each receive their share of proceeds proportional to their land ownership. I don't plan to do this, but I assume sooner or later somewhen in the next 5000 years this may happen



Normal support from Linden Lab liasons etc. is also available to residents in the sims I manage. What I try to do is add value on top of what Linden Lab supplies. Of course land ownership issues, zoning etc are handled by me and my staff.



Yes and yes. For most issues I have staff to back me up. There is one limited number of issues that need direct help from me as those are tied to my account (mainly land ownership transfer and estate functions).



In our sims active management helps you to actually get a fair share of the server's resources by preventing people from lagging the whole sims to death with clubs, malls or bad scripts.



I made arrangements to be able to be in world on regular basis and in long run. I also have people to back me up in many functions. My husband and I are currently exploring options of setting up office and hiring people in real life, but this might happen around autumn if business keeps growing at the currnet pace. It might need 50-100 sims to justify that step. The current plans by Lindens unfortunately pushed this back some.

Not true - I have recourse should LL harm me by violating their TOS, or overcharge me, or fraud, etc. US state laws, banking laws, and some US federal laws apply to LL in the performance of their business.

For me it comes down to the following:

"Who do I trust more? Another player or Linden Lab.

Linden Lab of course!

I still say make a "For Rent" tab in the find menu. It would solve this problem and everyone would know what they are getting from the very beginning.

Cat

Mostly I agree with you Prokofy. My "nightmare scenario" is about expectations. When you say the words "Sell Land", you imply all of the rights and privledges of actually owning land. When you see land on a private island under "Sell Land", you DO NOT have all of the rights and privledges of owning land. You are beholden to the person who actually pays Linden lab. It's the expectation of what you see under the "Sell Land" tab that is the problem.

The easy fix would be to have a "Land For Rent" tab next to the "Land For Sale" tab. Then all residents (mall, apartment, parcel, etc) can easily advertise land that they want to rent, list their conditions, etc.

We all dont live in USA....

From the terms of service:

2.5 Account. By using the Service you agree that even though you may retain certain copyright or other intellectual property rights with respect to works you create (your "Content," as defined in Section 6.1 below) while using the Service (as specified in Section 5.3 below), you do not own the account you use to access the Service, nor do you own any data Linden stores on Linden servers (including without limitation any data representing or embodying any or all of your Content).

3.1 Account Types and Charges. You may access the Service through either of two types of accounts. "Basic Access" accounts require a one-time access payment but do not include recurring charges for access to the Service. "Premium Access" accounts do not include a one-time access payment but do include recurring charges for access to the Service, and may be arranged for varying billing periods as described in Section 3.3 below. In addition to the applicable access charges, recurring Land Use Fees will be charged to you depending on how much land you hold within the Second Life world.

I don't think you own anything - however I am not a lawyer...

In response to those of you who feel the advertising restriction is a knee-jerk reaction perhaps I can explain a little what's behind the current state of things.

Private Island owners were asking for the ability to deed parcels to group, so they could have more control over land use. The feature was built and implemented. Then someone, maybe Anshe, maybe not, realised that the previously unsaleable island land could now be parceled and transferred in what amounts to a rental. I say rental because although all the privileges of ownership are available, the landowner can reclaim the land at any time. The cost structure is very attractive, although somewhat risky as it effectively allows the landowner to engage in arbitrage of the land. We debated this unexpected outcome, decided it created an interesting opportunity for renting and zoning experiments, and stepped out of the way.

But then all at once the island orders started pouring in. It's clear that many people are interested in the money-making potential of this new process. So this decision, which has not been deployed yet, is not about Anshe. It's about recognizing that it is now possible for someone to sell parcels on islands, collect the upfront payment as well as the tier payment, and then reclaim the land, leave the world, transfer the island to someone who wants to do something else with it. The renter is then basically out of luck. Our concern is that the renter has no recourse to recover their funds or their land except Linden Lab, and we are not party to the agreement.

We're not trying to hurt Anshe's business or that of any other island owner who chooses this path. Quite the contrary. We're trying to make sure that as we take yet another step into uncharted territory that we've got things in place to catch all the potential mistakes.

We will either create a way to flag these parcels in the Land Sales directory as rentals, or we'll set up a separate directory. As I said earlier, we aren't changing anything in the way the business is run, just restricting the advertising to make sure there are no surprises.

Also, Buster suggested that we are guilty of not thinking things through. I'll admit that there are times when we've introduced changes that catch people by surprise (although that doesn't mean we didn't think about them in advance - just that we need to do a better job of communication). In this case though, we have not deployed any changes yet. Those who are either already transferring parcels in the way Anshe is or who have told us they plan to do something similar received a mail explaining the restrictions and giving them ample time to discuss them with us and with you. And that's what we're doing.

Thank you Robin for your continued attention to this matter.