Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

What Toy said.

And once again, there is a VERY fundamental difference between what LL does and what you do. LL provides the service. You do not.

I understand you rent land in your sims as well as 'sell' Can you please explain to me how you view the difference between these 2 options?

I could agree on the term "leese"/"sub leese" for both case with leese agreements to be tradeable. And the sub leeses can be owned/resold. This would imply, however, that there is no land ownership in Second Life.



This is not true. LL only provides part of the service I sell. I provide my own service on top of that, acting as value added reseller.

The same basically applies to Linden Lab too: they don't run the network, don't even own the room the sims are located in. Part of what we pay Linden Lab for are services they in turn bought from other companies.

We are not really talking fundamental differences here.

I'm curious. Why do you say these are not binding agreements?

Contract law should apply here.
If there's mutual consent, consideration, and it falls within the law, it's a legally binding agreement.

Any Baron could easily draft a legally binding agreement. Then disputes would be resolved under contract law.

Of course the agreement would have to have a clause which allows for LL or LL's hosting company to pull the plug and not hold <baron> liable.

When people rent land they don't make any upfront investment. In turn I could decide not to allow them renew their rent if for example I want to use the land for something else in the future. Rental is also not transferable or resellable. I am in full control whom I want or don't want as tenant and can refuse tenants without any reason given.

When people buy, however, they buy the right to use the land for as long as the sim exists. If the sim ever liquidates they have right to receive their proportional share of liquidation money. They are allowed to resell the land to whomever they like, as long as the person agrees and obeys to the terms and conditions in the sim.

I'm for understanding how this works, and understanding that individual players, no matter how much money they have tied up in SL do not define the terms of service. Only LL does that and if they decide to pull the plug, the actuall difference between what LL does, and what Anshe.com does will become IMMEDIATELY clear.

Way too much semantics re: what is a very easy to understand.

It is binding as far as reputation of Linden Lab or myself is concerned. But nothing inside Second Life is legally binding. Legally binding would mean that people could sue Linden Lab or myself about land. The truth is: they can't. So all you buy is a promise, no matter you "buy" land from Linden Lab or from me.

I consider Linden Lab kinda cool though and Philip one great person. So I have enough trust to keep huge amounts of money invested, based solely on Philip's word and good business record.

Oh yes.
Let's see you get LL to sign.

which is true, there is no land ownership in SL. We either lease it from LL or we sub-lease it from a player.





Its still a sub-lease. Added value or whatever, its still a sub-lease.

Of course I define the terms of service in "Ansheland" within the terms of service Linden Lab provide for Second Life as one whole. As long as my "local law" does not violate Linden's "global law" that is perfectly fine and actually provides diversity and added value to those who appreciate the rules that apply in "Ansheland" sims.



I don't see a difference. "Pull the plug" would mean to screw me over. If they would do this, then they could do this to every other land owner in Second Life too.

I considered my former SL business partner an honorable honest person. I was mistaken.

Doing serious business only on reputation is very risky. Basing your future on the CEO is fraught with uncertainty, he's answerable to a board of directors and his 2nd phase venture capital folks, etc He can loose his job for any number of reasons.

Binding is a legal term Anshe - and in a US court has little to do with reputation and much more to do with law. LL is legally liable under their TOS, and as such we all as paying customers are offered reasonable protection under the law. You have no enforceable TOS with your customers that has real world basis, enforceable in a US court. Thus your customers are at risk doing business with you. That's just the way it is.

Nope - I'm not suggesting anyone screw anyone else.

Linden Lab can sell the Grid lock stock and servers to another company that decides to convert SL to 100% porno - no land, etc. Or a company that uses the Grid for only for marketing their RL products within their company.

Good bye SL as we know it.

_/_/

Exactly. But you are describing one general risk for land ownership in Second Life. The consequences of this would be same for everybody, no matter if bought land in "Ansheland" or "Lindenland".




Land ownership in Second Life is not guaranteed by the TOS. The Second Life TOS basically says that you own nothing and Linden Lab own everything. As such there is no legally binding or enforceable contract that Linden Lab provides about land ownership. We all "own" land at their merci. It is nothing but based on trust. If tomorrow Linden Lab deletes my account or your account there is no recourse.

Have to agree with you there. Damn that hurt...only kiddin Anshe

Yes, we are. This is the part you don't understand. In your mind, there may be no difference. In the minds of many others, there is a very signifigant difference, and no amount of you say "There is no difference!" can erase that.

Im not sure why this is still being discussed. I think most of us agree and are only argueing over wording. Bottom line is whether you rent or lease from Anshe (or anyone), she has full control and you have no recourse other than the court of public opinion. If you buy from LL or another player, you are at the mercy of LL. IMO if you rent/lease from another player you have two layers to worry about: your landlord and LL (maybe LL should stand for landlord). If you buy from LL or another player, you only have one layer to worry about: LL. The issue of leasing/reselling island land gives the leaser more options/features than a traditional rental but offers no more protection from sudden change of plans from the landlord. You can debate and discuss how 'safe' you really are by renting/leasing but the bottomline is the bottomline. I would have no problem renting/leasing from Anshe (or anyone well established) should I chose to go that route. But my rights and risks are pretty clear to me and all LL is trying to do is make sure the average consumer understands those risks as well and what they are really getting when spend their L$.

well said

[First posted at Possible solution to the Sim sales issue thread

*LL Revise TOS Prior To Changing*

I propose that Linden Lab (LL) change nothing at this time.

I propose that LL first revise the TOS to disclose in writing the operation and definitions all aspects of land transactions in SL, clarify their legal and fiduciary responsibilities regarding all player purchases from LL effected in SL.

I propose that the drop down now in place via. the land for sale tab be left exactly as is, and that no additional category for Private Sim sales be set up in the LL selling tools.

When/if LL decides it is in their best business interest to make changes then I propose they revise and publish the TOS prior to implementing a new way of doing business.

(As Alysa said, there have been 8+ pages of discussion with lots and lots of confusion).

Rational:
Players have invested time and money in SL for many reasons, including Private Sims - most of which have not been purchased for subdividing and re-sale. A few players are buying private sims to make US$ profits, most are not. For LL to change how land for sale, including Private Sims, is sold-listed-categorized-marketed because a small group of Private Sim customer/owner-players who are re-leasing their private sims and are not happy with LL is, for LL to change without a prior TOS revision would be very poor management and not in the best interest of the SL player base.

_/_/

First posted at Possible solution to the Sim sales issue thread

Well this is really a difficult question, as prperty has always been defined as a bundle of rights realting to land, and each of those rights is independently transferable. In addition varios CCRs and easements can run with title to the land.

However in the simplest terms one could say that tier to the lindens is not tied directly to land. It is possible to pay tier for the right to own land, but not actually own the land. In your case Anshe, the exchange is more direct: people pay tier to Anshe directly in exchange for the right to use a piece of property. Thus tier paid to Anshe sounds more like rent thatn does tier paid to the lindens.

Not the crux of the distinction the lindens are making stems from the fact that If I own land provided by the lindens, they cannot (or will not) impact my control over the land. I can build on it, sell it, or do nothing with it at my whim. If I obtain the same land from Ansheland, it is subject to Anshe's ability to pay tier, Anshe's desire to keep the land or Anshe's ongoing interest in the game. I expect what linden labs is trying to point out is that a person who purchases Ansheland has no recourse from linden labs should Anshe sell the land on a whim. In land purchased from linden, land can only be sold by the owner.

Without question, there are inherent protections built into land purchaed from the Lindens that are not present in Anshe Land. I am sure the lindens just want to highlight the potential risk for the users of obtaining land from other players versus from the source.

Of course Ultimately purchasing land from anshe may be more agreeable that purchasing from the lindens, even acounting for the technicalities. However from LL's point of view, they need to protect the users from the bad apples, even aat the expense of the Anshe Chungs. Simply put, anshe is not LL and therefore her sales of land are going to be treated differently, be cuase there are some slight differences in the transactions.

yes there are slight differences, but those differences do not equate to rentals..


Has anyone looked into the zoning rules in the few LL zoned sims? I've heard they exist, but have not seen them, or read any rules on them.. how are they different, if at all? Anyone know anything about these?

With the greatest respect, Alysa, people have different views. I for one think that trusting another player with your assets, and obeying his/her rules, is HUGELY different from just trusting LL, and obeying the TOS.

But I agree, these arrangements are not "rentals" when you pay an up-front fee, and can sell your "contract" to another player at a price of your choice.

I think many of these issues can be resolved if we can agree on a rational terminology.

The normal Linden arrangements have always been called "sales". It would be ludicrous to try to change that name to "lease" now, though it does have some elements of such, with the new thing as a "sub-lease".

Given that that name "sale" will stay, I think the best name for the new arrangements with private sim owners is indeed "lease".

So we have land "sold", "leased" or "rented". All are different, and need to be clearly distinguished.

Poor newbies. How their heads will hurt.

LOL all the more reason to rush on that class.. LOL

Can you explain how you see the difference between "rented" and "leased"? The only difference I can see is that "leased" is "renting" but with an upfront charge. I have seen it be argued that "leasing" is permanent, where as "renting" is not. Now all my "rentals" are permanent as far as I am concerned. Does that mean I am "leasing", but with out the up front charge?

This is actually not true. Tier payment in "Ansheland" is not tied to specific plots. There are residents with land in several sims, people who sell and buy and swap and move. Land tier depend on how much land one resident owns in all of the continent. It works like land tier on the mainland, not like rental.

What exists in "Ansheland" could be described as "sub-lease" if what exists in Linden sims would be described as "lease".

But as long as the other is called "land sale" then what you find in "Ansheland" is "land sale" too and not "lease".

Let me ask you this..... If someone 'buys' land from you and they click the About Land, is the persons name who bought it shown as the owner or listed as a officer of your group? If their name isnt they are leasing.