Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

I feel this discussion is going in circles. I think one can summarize almost like this:

A: What Anshe does is not selling land. It is really not about Anshe, you know, we all trust Anshe, but it just is that she is not selling land.
B: Why not?
A: Because Anshe is doing this and that and this and that.
B: But doesn't Linden Lab do exactly the same?
A: Uhm, yes. But it is still not the same because I trust Linden Lab and not a player.

Well, you see, two different things are being mixed: the question what I do and the question wether or not Linden Lab or myself is better party to do business with.

I completely understand if somebody would simply say:

"Linden Lab and Anshe are both selling land. They basically do the same thing, but I personally prefer to do business with a company in the USA and the ones who also develop the software. As such I would like it to be made 100% clear in the land finder whom I am buying land from and whom I subscribe tier with."

But this of course is all academic.

In one practical situation everything becomes 100% crystal clear to every customer when he or she visits the tier subscription page on ANSHECHUNG.COM and subscribe tier fee from "Ailin Graef" in Germany. There goes the anonymity, there even the most ignorant person who refused read the website, the notecards and who did not listen to explanations from me or my staff will fully understand where the money goes.

You should also put into perspective what actually is at stake. This is not about buying cars or your pension funds. The average land owner in "Ansheland" invest less than 100 US$ for 4096sqm, the aledgedly "most vulnerable" newbies spend 12 US$ if you include first month's tier fee. Put this in relation to 50000-100000 US$ worth of my visible investment in Second Life.

There are almost 100 happy land owners in "Ansheland" now. None of them worries about me mishandling their investment. But they are all very worried, very concerned about their own ability to list their land for sale in the future. The very people you try to protect with this argument are those you are actually going to hurt now. And consider all the people who won't learn about the alternatives in time before they end up with expensive land in Spinning-Cubia and Lagmallclubcasinomania. If people don't find "Ansheland" land they will find my land for sale on mainland and I still make money. But it is not satisfying or rather outright frustrating when two weeks later they call me for help and beg me to take back their land for half price they had spent, because one huge black box club named "The Crap" popped up and they get grief by Mr. K3wlboss and his buddies from the Dreadjerks Clan. Have we been talking about risks?

/me *cheers to Anshe's words*

What can I say? I fully agree with you, Anshe: two issues are being mixed here. Both are valid. But they should stay separate!

Anshe, there's one BIG difference: if ANYONE gets sick or... (I don't like to even say: ) disabled for a month or few at Linden Labs, the others will carry on the business smoothly. We can be sure of that.

If it happens to you, I just don't know. I don't see the 'drop-in backup person who could do all you do' anywhere. Is there anyone who could carry on instantly? Who has all your passwords, notes, knowledge, etc? And even if there is, how can we be sure? We can check Linden Labs's records, offices, etc.

Still, that's just a risk people need to 'price in'. If you're 10% cheaper, that might make up for the risk of losing just a few US dollars if ever. But it IS different than dealing with Linden Labs, you can't dispute taht.

My must be a group in Sl that are after Anshe and her alikes.. all the time... who are you guys?? What are you winning doing this al 24/7???

Poor people..

I have no prob to contact Anshe via mail and I know that she has a company.. and not alone working... and i GET answers when I have such... fast to,,

SEE THE POSITIVE IN IT !!!! - instead of seeing ONLY bad things .. are youall doing the same irl - yes then you have problems..

People lika Anshe are the ones that will develop SL together with us all... maybe not you that uses your time in hunting people like Anshe.. - but for sure all that are hard working developing SL are our future in 3D playing... or life what this now are?DD A MIX? a new kind of life??

Ok.. now I go back and have fun...

I keep hearing buying LL land from LL is also leasing it. I disagree, let's take a moment and compare it to buying land RL. In RL when I buy land, the deed is in my name... same as LL.
In RL if I default on my taxes my lnd can be confiscated by the IRS.... sames as paying or defaulting on tier. In RL if I break the laws my land can also be confiscated by the government.... same as breaking the CS or TOS in SL.

So it still boils down to me that they are very close to being the same. Whereas if I 'buy' land from a 3rd party, if the land is not in my name, I have not bought it. I have leased it, rented it or whatever one may call it but, I dont own it.

may i politely ask, if we have reached the point in this thread where we are running in circles?

if you look at the now over 200 posts in this thread (and some others exist with similar topics) nearly every conceivable argument why "only LL can 'sell' land" or "Anshe and LL are doing nearly the same" has been exchanged. it seems to me, that this is largely a matter of opinion - or interest - and no comparison to real life seems to be able to change this opinion in any of the participants in the discussion ...

any one can sell land, but if I buy it and my name isnt the owner, I havent bought it

The land shows your group as the land owner. Somebody posted one screenshot earlier in this thread.

And to you real-life comparison I can only add: In Second Life Ansheland is one state, ANSHECHUNG.COM is the local government and you are taxed by us. We as the local government then pay tribute to Emperor Philip who threatens to raid us if we fail to bow to his menacing soldiers. Hmmm, well, does this work for you?

As you keep bumping this topic, I cannot but jump in. There is a difference, it is not academic. That doesn't necessarily mean one is preferable to the other for any given player, just that they are different, and the difference is anything but academic. Note I avoided the whole lease/buy/rent/hire distinction there and they are still different; repeating that they aren't doesn't make it any less true.

I've also seen you quote your "investment" in SL to support numerous arguments. I'm pretty sure this is your perceived appraisal of the value of your investment and not actual US$. If it does represent actual expenses then why the wide variance - I don't think that the USD/EUR rate has fluctuated quite that much. Does this appraisal include your RL time as well? I don't doubt your personal intentions on committment to SL, but please don't use largely fabricated numbers to support that stance as it is misleading, and even if true couldn't add support to your comittment.

Purchasing a public bond or surity against Anshe.com performance would bolster verifiability of that committment. I'm not suggesting you ought, just that it would be more compelling than invented numbers.

Just so this is perfectly clear: I am saying nothing about the merits of AnsheLand, it may please some and may not others. I am merely stating that they are different and that some of the major arguments used against the difference have been lacking rigor.

I also believe that the issue is moot at this point as I think LL has said that they shall differentiate between Linden Land and Player Land.

And a rose is still a rose.

Ansche won the game of Second Life!
Congrats Ansche!

LL, can you now reshuffle the Grid and give us a new game!
Oh yeah!

Anshe are you ever going to provide any RL information to your customers? Business name, Address, Phone number? Since you like to pretend to be a RL business, why not act like a RL business.

First: Eboni: Today, 02:09 PM #228

Second: Anshe has before ”in” here at forum told about that and her man plus company and more... if you want/need more why not mail her directly and ask?

Perhaps the problem is that the "major arguments used against the difference" have not been stated in "legalese" but mostly in "common English" - which is not an unambigous language, and can be read in very different ways, depending on both who writes it and the person reading it... that's why we are supposed to have things like the ToS, written in "legalese", to make sure everybody knows what we're talking about.

Basically, if you have two entities, offering the same product/service, under similar agreements, and with the same pricing structure, legally speaking, there would be no difference between both types of "product/service offer". The difference only exists inside our minds, because we "feel" they're different, for many personal and subjective reasons, involving concepts as "trust", or technicalities like "this or that doesn't work in a private sim".

But legally speaking, there are no differences at all. And the ToS is silent as well on that.

For LL to differenciate between "Linden Land" and "Player Land", they will have to introduce several changes in the ToS - the "legal argument" which sets up all relationships between transactions among residents and LL, and among residents themselves. Notice that the concept of "private island" does not exist under ToS. You have discrepancies in ToS like "In addition to the applicable access charges, recurring Land Use Fees will be charged to you depending on how much land you hold within the Second Life world." (3.1) But nowhere is defined what "holding land" means. If I rent land from another resident, do I "hold land" or not? And while "holding" a private sim does not pay Land Use Fees, but a "private sim lease", can we safely assume that both things mean the same? But nothing on the ToS says that...

LL should define very clearly what a "private sim" is, beyond the sales pitch and the proceedings on what constitutes a "private sim lease". Then they need to define the terms under which "private sims" are to be used or exploited; and what cannot be done under the terms of agreement to "lease" a private sim. And finally, they would have to introduce the concept of in-world land sales, not as a cute in-world dialog box that you may have or not (ToS does not define if this mechanism exists or not). Of course, the more definitions we have, the harder it will be to change things later (say, what is a sim running on a private server - not run by LL?).

So, yes, I think that this "differentation" is something well worth discussing, having it clearly defined, and understand, legally, what implications there are; and technically, what will be implemented to keep those two things different.

If it takes 200+ posts for discussing that, well, I can only say that it's an issue that is relevant to many. It has an objective purpose - the need for a definition which is unambiguous and incorporated at the level of ToS.

Notice that the lack of all these "tiny details" in the ToS means that several interpretations are possible - which is exactly what people are trying to avoid right now, including LL itself, which stated the interest in defining clearly what are "sales" and what aren't.

Gwyneth - it's all been explained early in this thread!

You're late to the party and beating the horse deadly and repeating what has been said more than a few times.

I'll pass on speculating why...

can I release land I buy from you to LL? Im not talking about normally sold land, like on the mainland. I am speaking of so called island sub-dividing for sale. If I want top release my island Im free to do so... is that possible with yours? Of course not and why? Because YOU own it not the person that is leasing it from you. Can they make their land invis? Of course not, its owne by you. Can they set their lots to M or PG? Of course not, you own their land.

Hehehe - Toy - it's all been explained in this thread! You've been at the party early on and have explained it accurately.

Ansche won the game of Second Life!

Congrats Ansche!

LL, can you now reshuffle the Grid and give us a new game!

And oh yeah - a rose is still a rose.

I been here all along, just havent posted in awhile She may7 have won her game, but is far from the running in mine

Not good enough. She is publicly in forums declaring to be a real company, and using Paypal as a business, but provides no business information. I will keep asking this in a public forum until I get a satisfactory answer, am banned for it, or leave.

Pardon my use of you as an example Eboni.. But *this* is part of what I posted.

People come into this world trusting Linden Lab as a business. But what reason do they have to trust others that become "resellers".. ?? None. It is up to *that* secondary business to provide the documents that would make a customer trust them.

Describing yourself and your business in a forum doesn't mean bunk. hehe.. You have to have other ways for people to "verify" the legit business you claim to run..

Look, I buy on the internet all the time. I take a lot of risks. I'm super trusting without the need for a lot of creditials. I've been burned... oh well.. hehe.. I'm a super HUGE fan of buying on the internet and giving benefit of the doubt

At the same time.. I am an ecommerce developer for businesses. I *know* most are NOT comfortable if they do not know *exactly* what is going on. And YES, it is different when you purchase a plot on a private Island. I don't care what you call it. All I want is for others to know *just* what that purchase means.

I havent read all the posts as there is alot. but heres a story of linden labs taking land away from me:



I was apart of the darkwood group when it first started and had a small shop with a loft in the upstairs, all themed with darkwood in mind in the darkwood area near the welcome center. I hung out there often and was usualy one of the only people that was in darkwood most of the time. The main leader in the group decided he didnt want to be the leader anymore and chose a friend to be the main leader ( no voting for the group he just decided) they wanted my land and asked me to move to another spot. I did not want to move, it was all set up like streets and I had a nice corner spot next to the river and they wanted me to go off to the side. I told them I really did not want to( heck they were not offering any reason as to why I should!) and then was harassed by two of the new leaders friends. In the end it was because the guy next to me wanted to make his store larger. In the end this new leader was allowed to decide to "kick me out"no voting from darkwood members) and linden labs took my land from me... Its sad because now darkwood has shrunken and most of the land is linden owned. Yes this was a linden sponsored project but I do not think it was handled the right way. I was not violating any rules, it was a sponosred GROUP project but no voting was ever used to handle this issue. I was not offered replacement land elsewhere for this issue ethier and I did not get any linden money for having to give up my land ethier.

Well that's more an issue about group permissions, if you're not an officer, you don't have many. OK forgive my ignorance on Darkwood, but who paid the tier, and who bought the land?

The tier was each members land tier and the land was free( but this was when land was REALLY cheap way back then and it might have been a small fee I can't remember). But why should I be forced out with NO LAND and no money for it? I had a shop and was making money and enjoying myself and building on my land. Why should I have to give that all up ? With no money to replace that land to buy new land? Yes it was a group issue but it was not handled in a group fashion. This new leader ws allowed to decide that I should be kicked out. Keep in mind this is when darkwood had ATLEAST a dozen members. This new leader who was allowed to make the final call was in charge not by ANYONES choice except our old leader. No votes were cast to vote him in as the new leader. Sadly our old leader obviously made a poor choice because it was no longer a GROUP project obviously since no voting EVER took place. I just think linden labs took over where they shouldnt have.

also each person owned the land, I owned the land my store was on.

17 pages, so this isnt likely to be read,..


the issue about land being listed goes further then, is the private land sold VS rented

the land in question is being listed for a FRADULANT 1$, this is placing that land at the top of the list while not obligating the seller to actually sell. and this is keeping all the REAL priced land from being properly sorted.

if they made another option, view private land for sale that would be good, but they better force the land owner to properly price the land. the land should be sold as listed end of story.

I feel the private islands should be in a different catagory.
and should be listed at its sell price (not 1$ so its at the top of a list which screws the rest of the people.)

but to answer: land is resources, its all rented. nobody (player) ever ownes the server your land is on, and your always paying dues - rent. private and maingrid

and anyone who 'sells' you or anyone else land thats actually a subdivision of a private island, could happily take yer RL money, and THEN do the same exact thing, hence why LL is choosing to not allow land to be 'sold' there, since when you buy it you have at best group land rights, not single owner rights, and the REAL owner can at any time for any reson at all bump you off the lend, delete yer build, and 'sell' the land again. They won't be popular doing it, but people will most definately try