Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

Alysa

You say
"but I do dispute that they should not be called sales, IF they are sales..."

Its not a question of whether they are sales, its a question of whether they are LAND sales. Almost any deal in which rights, obligations and money are exchanged can be thought of as a sale.

But anyway, I'm not one who thinks that subtle philosophy should be brought to bear on this naming problem. Words are not our masters. It is a practical matter of avoiding confusion. The normal variety have always been called "land sales". It is far too late to call them anything else.

This new thing is radically different, and needs to be clearly distinguished, so as a PRACTICAL MATTER, it has to be called SOMETHING ELSE, even if many of its characteristics have similarities.

The "radical differences" which make this necessary are not in the nature of the transaction, they lie in the nature of the involved parties.

I know you don't see it, but there is a HUGE difference between contracting with another player, who remains anonymous, and contracting with a RL company in California, whose financial stability you can research, who gives you an address and telephone number, and whose chief asset is your loyalty. Do you really not see that ?

Remember the anonymous player COULD just decide to stop playing and cash in. They could just walk away with your money laughing. They don't even need to stop playing, they just swap alts. Or, since they have broken no rules, they could just walk about bragging. The person they sold the sim to will kick everybody out. Remember, they could disappear one day with lots of your money, and you might never even have the satisfaction of telling them what you think !

I'm not talking about Anshe. How will a new player distinguish between Anshe, and some less scrupulous operator running a similar scheme with ill intent ?

We need all land deals where you gamble substantial assets on another player's honesty to be lumped together with some name, and we need to specifically educate everyone how to balance the risks and benefits.

Jesse,

I'm concerned to protect those who have less than your obviously sparkling intelligence and judgement, or cant afford the time for the forum searching you advocate.

You've given me a new thought. If everybody IS as careful as you, they may never trust anyone but Anshe. No new land market, no diversity, just a huge escalating one-woman monopoly. She's well on the way without it.

I'm as bad burnt as scalded, aren't I ? What fun !

I want to see a new, vigorous, diverse, competitive market in different forms of land holding, with well informed customers, and well separated from conventional sales.
Well separated so that this conventional market too remains buoyant, supported by those people who made the informed decision not to trust their assets to anyone anonymous.

OMG

I think maybe I'M beginning to see the light.
Pleas God I'll see things differently after a sleep.

I'm beginning to think we've all misunderstood, except one.

There are NOT going to be any OTHER players in this new market.

No diversity, no competition.

The risks of trusting an anonymous player are so high. No-one but Anshe comes close.

I think THATS IT.

I think we all just witnessed the moment when Anshe irrevocably took control of the grid.

And this whole thread has just been one huge chunk extra publicity to help it along. Complete with supporters heaping praise.

Damnation.

No wonder the Linden's are running round in circles as they realise what they've done.

Gotta sleep. Praps its a(n) hallucination brought on by fatigue...

Must sleep....

Must sleep.......

Lindar,

I admit, this issue is perplexing, it is not something that is going to be solved overnight or even with a patch. No matter what word we settle on for this new land purchasing deal, the bottom line is still that each player will individually deteremine themselves whether they feel they "bought" the land or "rented" the land. This thread alone shows that everyone see's this new private sim purchasing as something slightly different in their own minds. Linden labs, and I agree they need to, can only put in so much rudimentary protection in, the rest is upon the individual player to protect themselves and make an informed decision.

In the end, after all is said and done, after all the different land deals are sorted and seperated... it will be the responsibility of the buyer to make sure they are doing the right thing.

I am all for diversity and competition, it builds in its own check and balances and I believe their is room for small and large land barons in the game. Their is always pro's and con's to every situation and land deal type and everyone will have a different set of idea's of what they believe will be the ideal land purchase.

I hope we can all agree that this is not about controlling free enterprise but more about player awarness and education.

Geez, Lindar, and you've just got done accusing ME of conspiracy theories? Huh?

As you can see, other people like Jesse and Alysa are saying the same arguments as I am, trying patiently to get you to see that your specious concerns about putative victims of unscrupulous island dealers are trumped-up. They're doing it more politely than I am, and they have nothing to do with me. I'm just making the same points sharper in order to be as effective and visible as I can with them.

Yes, trumped up. Because you're just not thinking through what is involved. It's one thing for a griefer to come on here and get a 7-day trial account and fly around and shoot people or for somebody to run around trying to scam newbies out of their first-land by paying them too little.

But a private island costs nearly $1000. It's not everybody who is going to come up with that kind of money. People who can pay those kind of steep costs and pay the tier month after month just tend to be adults, not kids, and tend to be people who see the value of land and aren't here just to rip people off. There's nothing magic about having $1000 that confers any maturity and good will on you, of course. I'm just saying that in this game, the people who make investments like that just tend to be of the more stable and business-like variety. It would actually take some considerable skill to buy an island, advertise it in the way Anshe is advertising it, find 10 or 40 or however many customers, collect all their money, wait patiently maybe 30 days to get them good an snookered, then sell the island to some *other* unscrupulous but equally rich person who dumps them all over. Both of those people would be absolutely cooked in terms of ever being able to do business in here again. Whatever their dilatory searches for ISP numbers when it comes to 7-day-trial alts, LL might be much more heavily motivated to investigate the ISP of a $1000/month griefer, and boot that ISP forever. I'm just saying you really need to look at the structure of the possible scam and realize that its chances aren't quite the option you think.




I never said there was any conspiracy. Nor did I say that it was only a conspiracy of older players. Some older players merely set the tone on this kind of belief system, and give it some traction and help give it a pass. There are plenty of younger players who virulently hate landowners and all land dealing. This is a real group of people with real attitudes -- whether or not they are organized, they constitute a significant and vehement presencein the game that never gets any reprimand from LL in terms of their nasty, vituperative rhetoric stream aimed at land dealers. They don't have to meet in a cabal at dawn at Forseti's build to function, not even in coordination, not even knowing each other, as a hindrance in the game to the real estate business. They are a real factor. Anybody coming into this came interested in investing in real estate or getting into the land business is going to come smack up against such people, often in their more visible and nasty forms, such as the BOYCOTT ANSHE signs peppered all over the New Continent which put a chill on all land transactions and created a nasty climate.



Well, frankly, since you want to take such a public and crusading stand on this, it would be helpful for me to ask: who are you? Why are you making this your cause? Do you intend to buy land? Do you intend to sell land? Or do you intend to just set yourself up as the "conscience of all land dealers" like Jiminy Cricket? Or what?



I think you've seen from the posts here that people, even new people, aren't the dummies you imagine. They get it.



Well, these kinds of busy-body activities really have no place here because you alone, or even in concern with an association of busybodies, can't control the land market in that fashion. The real estate market is volatile and often cut-throat. That's because all any dealer really has is 30 days before tier kicks in and forces him to sell or cut his losses, and he may even have only 15 days before the Lindens roll out new sims, devaluing whatever land he already posssesses. Those are the two harsh realities of the land business that give it its brutal character in SL. So you cannot change human nature -- any savvy person dealing with those two very harsh limitations on their entrepreneurial activity is forced to be as hard-ball a dealer as they can muster while still keeping a customer base by being pleasant and decent. That's Anshe. And it doesn't mean that the grid will be dominated by her. It means that the individuals who can come into this very tough environment and function with its limitations on any kind of mass scale are rare indeed.

Have you ever bought and sold any land and do you have any idea what I'm talking about?

I should be the first one complaining bitterly about Anshe's $19999 4096s in Ansheland, because whatever 4096 that I'm trying to sell then just got a lot more difficult to hold tier on on the grid and a lot more unsellable. But I'm not complaining because I'm all for diversity in the land business coming in, with a variety of options for players.




Nobody is holding a gun to your head? If you see another anonymous player with $1000 and $195/month -- not the average player and certainly not the average griefer -- who appears to be doing this, I'm sure you'll blow the whistle on them. The person likely to buy into this scheme -- having say, $19999 for a 4096 (or less, to be competitive with Anshe) is not going to be a day-old player or even a 30-day old player. So where is this putative group of people so vulnerable to be scammed? They don't exist except in your fevered imagination. And you call me a conspiracy nutter!



The next wave has to have the same $1000 and same $195 as Anshe, and that is the biggest curb on their potential for fraud that I can think of. Where are those people? I look out and I see...Nexus Nash and Adam Zaius of GIGAS doing the same thing or poised to do the same thing, and they already have a good reputation from their mall and from Meins. No worries there. Then I see blaze Spinnaker talking about how he might do a community like this if the guarantees become more airtight about being able to advertise, and no one will have any worries about his reputation because even if you don't agree wit him in the forums, you know he isn't going to bilk you in a land deal.

So where are they? They should have appeared by now, hmmm? Because you can still list land for sale like this, mmm?



Um, I guess that's a backhanded way of telling me and everyone else that I'm likely to defraud them, and backhandedly slandering my reputation? That's a load of crap. I don't defraud people. I'm in a highly visible business trying to build a customer base. Someone like that doesn't harm their customers, they help them and try to run as open and decent a business they can.

And for your information, no, I won't be going into this market. Ponying up $1000 and $195 in that manner is a big step, and the customer service is a big step. I already have enough on my plate on the regular mainland grid. And for me, the biggest concern about these controlled private island sims is that they represent gated, closed communities. Whatever their positive features, and they are many, their mass replication poses troubling problems for me morally and spiritually. I just prefer to try to create more voluntary residential zones and try to have people buy their own land or rent it on the mainland and take responsible possession of it to make better neighbours.

It's SO easy to deflect everybody onto the specifics isn't it?

Yep, it SURE IS Lindar. I've just given you bunches of them I'll warrant you've never heard of. Have you ever bought or sold land? Do you honestly have any idea of what you are talking about? Can you honestly point to anybody right now who had $1000 and $195 per month to mount this giant fraud scheme you think is in the works? Huh?

Even the most decent and rational new person coming in here to do this business is going to have to pause 100 times before doing it, precisely because of the rampant anti-business and anti-real estate dealer attitude in this game, whipped up on the forums in particular.

It seems evident the Lindens are working to make the tabs filter better eventually, to find ways to encourage renting as well as sales -- Philip Linden himself encouraged renting in the last town meeting and encourage players, not his company, to be the ones to do the zoning. Zoning is not something LL will take on. They want residents to do it. So they're doing it. They can do more of it if the Nervous Nellies at the Gate will stop carping about it. Some sort of definition of this transaction -- "deeding" rather than "sale" or whatever, using some of the helpful distinctions that you and others have found, will be incorporated into the land list. Everybody is aware of your concerns, could you get off it now?



Yes, I'm waiting to see who has $1000, $195/month, and can brave the self-appointed Net Nannies on this forum and in the game who are going to be in an unfair and unjust default mode of accusing them of fraud.

Thanks a lot. You're helping to hinder the game. This is what I mean. It surely wasn't your intention. You think you're trying to do good. Lindens think they are trying to do good. I'm here to differ with you. I see you objectively doing bad. You are preventing legitimate businesses from functioning as best they can and getting customers, in the name of a fake and putative bad business that didn't appear yet, and in part can't appear precisely because in your zeal to preven it, you're hammerlocking ALL businesses unnecessarily.

The way to prevent bad business is not to hobble all business, but to let good business flourish.

I can't imagine that any figure will appear in this game and attempt to do this business now without having 100 people on their necks asking them a million questions. They are likely to fold from the sheer peer pressure.

Are you satisifed that you have achieved your controlling and perhaps unintendedly nasty goal now, whoever you are? Could you get off now and go back to getting sleep at night?

We'll just have to differ prok.

Your response looks superfically as though its addressing the points I have been making.
But always it deflects sideways onto irrelevancies.

Like my personality. What has that to do with ANYTHING? I have bought and sold lots of land. I have 16000 to sell now. I have rented. So what ?

As it happens, I have the financial resources to buy 13 sims tomorrow if I want, and pay the tier. No problem. So what ?

Irrelevant.

I told you my motives. In my experience Newbies find it amazingly difficult to grasp how normal land sales work. Unless these leases are presented entirely separately they WILL get confused, and be easy prey to a sales pitch.

I've told you precisely and clearly why I am concerned about what these leases are called, and how they are listed.

If they are good offers, they will have takers however this is done. Why can't they stand on their merits ?

They need to be called something different mainly because of the HUGE difference in who you are dealing with. Its practical, not philosophical.

What I don't understand is why YOU care what they are called.

I've given my motivation. What's yours ?

WHAT ARE YOUR REASONS THAT IT MATTERS ?

Lindar, anybody who has March 2005 as a start date and 16k of land must be an alt...or...blaze? or...who the hell knows?




So...could that give us some insights into your motivation, which surely bears some scrutiny if you're going to put yourself out there as a crusader on behalf of putative newbie victims?

Are you concerned that your 16k is devalued with Ansheland's dump of 4096 for $19999 into the system? Hell, even Anshe is concerned about the effect of the dump of her cheap land into the market LOL.



Um...could you at least get one going and do something like Anshe's so that you could see that you won't be defrauding newbs in quite the way you think?




Hardly. Not when you start a public clamour against several prominent landowners trying to defeat their business.



Where are these newbies? I don't see them. I don't see them here on the forums. And I don't see them in the game in the way you imagine. I explain things to newbs all the time as part of my work. So? On the one hand, they aren't that dumb. On the other hand, ALL things related to land are confusing to newbs. starting with tier and first-land and all the rest. Most just freeze and do nothing, many are fearful of doing anything precisely because of this climate of fear and even hatred swirling around the land business. That's what I try to dispel so that newbies can feel some sense of the great control they do have -- they do have a resource often --first land. They can and should make use of it if they want to have either a residence, or walking around money, or a business.




They already ARE standing on their merits. Can't you see that? They have takers, and they will have more -- I plan to get at least one parcel myself at some point. They are already moving. But then they got a big whallop. In the form of net nannies on the forums clammering to the Lindens, and the Lindens themselves facing a very real problem, but not realizing that the way to drive out bad business is with the kind of good business that Anshe runs. I don't mean to suggest that Anshe doesn't drive a hard bargain sometimes and even gouge up a strategic water parcel, but on balance, she does good, and these parcels out in Ansheland are a steal at the price.



Well, where are these other people who ponied up $1000 and $195, but yet turned out to be fraudsters? huh?



I don't care what they are called. Call them cream cheese. They'll sell, regardless, because the problem you've created is largely a fake one.

Your motivation isn't *at all* clear. If you aren't in business to get these types of lands yourself, if you aren't an end user, then why are you arrogating to yourself the job of crusading for newbies? At least when I say something based on what newbies want or think, or what TSO Refugees want or think, it's because I deal with dozens of customers every day and hear all kinds of requests and ideas.

Where do you get your impressions? Do you live in the world? Or are you out here just churning hypotheticals just to make a nuisance of yourself?

Like I said, I don't know who appointed you the Jiminy Cricket of the Land Barons. But chirp away. People are going to step around the robots.

And if you are shouting in all caps about a bunch of overpriced pixels on a server...well...maybe you need a break.

I have March 2005 by my name. I am no one's alt. I have owned and sold 4k & 8k parcels and currently own 16k parcel.

I am simply showing that how long a person has their account is in no way any indication of how much they know or own. It only states when they got their account. I find many posters on these forums like to jump to conclusions.

This is not a poke at you persay Prok, just an observation.

Good point. I agree. Some people hit the ground running. They're a good indication that all this screaming that Lindhar is going is missing the mark.

The reason I jump to a conclusion about Lindhar being more than he seems is because not only does he have a lot of land -- which frankly is unusual for newbs of only 30 days, you'll have to admit. He's got very big ideas and WRITES IN ALL CAPS WHEN HE EXPRESSES THEM. He has WAY to much energy on this issue, and that prompts me to ask if he is an alt.

Forgive the long quote above, but I feel its time, after all the argument, that we step back and look at where we are. This is the only definitive statement I can find.

It tells us that they did not expect, and were surprised by the way the new feature was being used. They decided not to stop it, but didn't want it mixed into the list like a sale. They go further than me, and think of it as "rental". I don't think that is fair, it needs its own category.

It tells us "all at once the island orders started pouring in.". This seems to suggest orders other than from just Anshe, that there really are other people coming into this in significant numbers, soon to arive, probably with quite different offerings.

But what IS the situation at the moment re advertising in the list ?

"..who feel the advertising restriction is"
and
" ...received a mail explaining the restrictions and giving them ample time to discuss them with us and with you"

Seem to me a little ambiguous. Are they talking about planned advertising restrictions being considered?
Or is the restriction in place, but on a voluntary basis as a result of email requests to users?

I see at least one person offering land leases in the Land Sales list today.

I think its time LL responded to all our discussion, and the divers views expressed.

Is this advertising banned? Is it allowed until modifications allow it to be listed separately?
Is it just allowed, and the issue is on the back burner, to see what happens?
Is LL searching for a new name for these "trust and obey another player" deals ? Or are they going to insist on putting it under "rental" (not good, but better than "sale" IMHO).

Then I'm not addressing an issue you care about, Prok, so why are you posting?
I think it matters what these deals are called, and how they are presented, for three simple reasons I've given (search forums on "threefold".

You attack me because I think something is important, which you think doesn't matter ?
Keep out of it then.

I'm not alone. Anshe Chung thinks its important. She knows, I guess, that what a thing is called has a profound effect on how people respond to it on first meeting. And what it is classified in with.

How do I know she cares ? She keeps fighting the case in forum. Here's some evidence:



Now, Prok, could you please just leave the argument to those of us who think it is significant, since you have stated that you don't. Anshe. Some others here. Me. The Lindens.

No, read what I wrote. I said that I don't plan to get into this business. It's not my interest at this time. That doesn't mean I don't "care" about it in the larger sense -- I just don't have motivation to go into this particular style of land sales. But do I care about the success of anybody in the land business, especially with a plan that can help build communities and make SL a more stable and civilized place.



Well, that's just your snap judgement, that doesn't mean it's true. I'm challenging you because you are coming on here, unknown, a March date av with loads of land with unclear motives, to wage a huge frontal attack on a form of land business. Now, you could just be an irate citizen who happened along and got all indignant. But you could also be a shill of some sort for the Lindens, or Blue Burke, or who the hell knows! Your posts could easily be taken as those coming from an alt of some competitor to Anshe who has suffered lately because she has created another land glut -- or who the hell knows? I have no way of knowing. I think therefore it is worth countering you because I think you are inciting hatred and suspicion needlessly, and shaking up the market by fueling it with rumours.

I have yet to hear you tell me that you've climbed off your high horse and gone in the world and right-clicked on this land and gone through the steps and talked to the people selling it, and also those who already bought it. I wish you'd do that little thing.



I'm sure Anshe is highly motivated to do the right thing by the community at large, which forms the large base of her own customers. She wants to make sure that when there is a controversy surrounding something she is offering, that she accommodates people's concerns. She is more in customer service mode in that sense than me.

I, on the other, hand am entirely free to call your intervention what it is: incitement, and incitement on unknown motives (whatever threefold reasons you've put out there as your "explanations" which don't *really* explain what you are up to. NOBODY puts this much energy and vehemence into a posting forums war unless they have a stake in it, and if not a stake in the land business, then a stake as setting themselves up as the latest ego that is going to be a "friend to newbs" and a "servant to the community".



Excuse me, Lindhar, but you can't force people to "leave an argument" just because you don't like what they say. You can put me on mute, using the medieval shunning methods of this forum, but you can't force me to "leave an argument".

If anything, unless I, too, buy a private island which is all the rage now, I, too, will not be competitive. But I just prefer to stay on the grid now and attempt something different for my own reasons. If anything, these private islands devalue my land, and like you, I should be grabbing on to this naming/definition issue like a pit bull and working it to death to keep invoking Lindens and keep Anshe at bay from devaluing my land, which she is doing objectively LOL.

So why am I not doing that? Because to me, the more important issue at stake is freedom of speech in advertising and increase in in-game advertising capacity, and an obligation of the Lindens to keep to an implication they made when they made this huge sale of $13,000 to Anshe of their islands. If Anshe wants to call it a "sale with special conditions" I'm for her doing that. I think her right to do that has to be protected, as does mine.

If someone thinks my "waterview" doesn't have enough water in it, they can scream about fraud on the forums if they like, or we could have a Better Business Bureau if the Lindens can agree not to allow frivolous AR's on "verbal harrassment" to "stick" on those who conduct allegations of fraud. But they shouldn't be holding a group grope to oppress me with stipulations like "water view can only be used if it is not less than 16m from actual water and contains at least 40 precent water in the view."

What I'm not for doing is to try to micromange the way in which people advertise land -- which should be done responsibly, but not with so many net nannies and kibutzers as we have now. And I'm for vastly increasingly the in-game advertising capacity which constitutes a severe hobble on the economy. If when the Lindens finally do that, and allow more nuanced categories like "island lease" which is understood by all to be what it is, well fine -- but I'm not for waiting until then to fix this, and creating a fake problem, phony solutions, and even more artificial "victims" to achieve a dubious agenda.

There are no victims of island fraud yet. Can we remember that? Meanwhile, there are some happy customers, and there could be more, if the net nannies would get their scrawny fingers off the neck.

I'm sorry Prok, I gazed unfocussed at your posting, but somehow, unbidden and unexpected, I felt too nauseated to read it. Your style of debate is, how can I say, distasteful to me. I regret having engaged with you so much, and will no more. For me, the negatives outweigh the positives.

I just put you on my ignore list. I thought it only fair to tell you - you might care to reciprocate. It's not really much of a list, just one entry.

I really am sorry to do this. When you initiate a topic, you often have valid and intelligent things to say. But the moment you face the smallest disagreement, some sort of fatal twist occurs which contaminates the debate.

I feel in a way that this is a failure on my side, but you can't argue with nausea.

Thats it. Don't bother replying, I'll never know if you did.

*rolls eyes*

Blue, is that you? Somehow, I don't think so.

Ok. If it is NOT Blue, then what on earth are you flogging this for? I stand by my right to challenge what you are about because to this day, I do not understand what is really driving your zealotry on this issue.

I didn't "fatally twist" anything I asked you what was *really* going on with your campaign around this issue. It's phenomenal, the energy you are putting into *making other people do something*. Don'ty ou have a game to play *yourself*? What the hell is up with this?

It's not clear whether you are in the land business and upset at the competition, or in the ratings/posturing game trying to portray yourself as Mr. Community Builder. It's bogus though. Because all you've done is succeeded in harrying and harass people trying to make a business and make this game better by providing a better qualify of life.

It's like you just don't care about *quality of life for other people* you can only think of what it means to be*right on some technical and literal point*. We all heard about a thousand miles ago that you find the definition of "sales" unfair. Meanwhile, while you're frothing about this, people are continuing to list these things in the Land List as "$0 sales" (well, there's no money up front in a rental from them anyway).

And people are moving in, and everybody's happy. I think your concerns long since registered with the Lindens -- indeed that's why they go on Anshe's case. So your work here is done Lindhar. You can rest assured that everybody got your concern, and they are all working on it.

Wow. What a thread.

Maybe I'm thinking of this whole issue differently than everyone else, but I don't think of it as leasing/renting/owning/etc. property. Sure, from inside SL there's a fiction that this is all land that can be bought and sold for L$, but that's not actually the case, and trying to reason from how property works in the real world to how it "should" work in SL seems ... error-prone to me.

I think of LL as a hosting service--for a fee, they serve up my content. More fee, more space for content. I even have intellectual property rights on content I create, but that doesn't mean I own the resources that content takes up, or that the hosting service owes me anything more than my contract with them specifies.

In other words, it's not really like real estate--it's more like a club membership, and L$ are like frequent flyer miles.

--Arashiko

I feel that way too, Arashiko. It's all pixel land. Pretty beaches, but it's nothing you'd count on to last. More like a playground you're paying to use. I think it's a good deal, better than going on a vacation in RL, and just looking at scenery you can't affect.

Lindar, you've given us some valuable warnings. I hope you'll keep watching the land reseller game, and telling us what you see.

Geez man, your really getting off track now, Unlike you I DO NOT hide behind an ALT. I have done nothing to be ashamed of. Although I dont think you will take my advise but, here it goes anyways. TAKE A BREAK. Honestly you should take a week or something clear your head. Hell, just stay out of the forums a week. Now there is a challenge. You and your alts out of the forums form 1 week? I know its hard but, I think there are group for this.

Hi, Blue!

Nope, I don't need to take any break from any forums, no do I need any "groups" except my land groups ROFL.

What, and leave the field clear only for *you* in the mall business? Why?

I have no alts in this forum or this thread. I don't "hide behind alts". Not sure how you're holding YOUR land groups together but my land groups are as transparent as they come.

Nope, no alts here in this thread. Do you have any?

That was my question.

Because the person whipping up this frenzy seemed to be a highly knowledgeable land baron type with a real axe to grind in competing with Anshe.

Then you are more equal than a landowner -- even a lowly 512 owner, but especially a large group owner -- because the focus has been on securing intellectual property rights but not virtual property rights. That's the next step.

... what about looking at RL models to clarify the issue?

Robin Linden clearly defined something based on her perception of Linden Lab's relationship with their customers: if LL announces parcels for "sale" under a ToS (which defines "ownership" and "reselling" ability under that ToS), gives them full editing/terraforming/reselling rights, and charges a "up-front payment" and "monthly land usage fees" for them (either in US$ or L$), it's a "sale" - by Robin's definition.

If a SL resident does precisely the same, it's a "rental".

The argument Robin uses in this case is that in the first case, LL is able to sort out any problems and arguments arising with land issues. In the second case, they don't.

Ok, that's her official view on the subject, and, as a resident, we're forced to accept that as "law".

However, let's look at it from the point of view of a RL issue. LL is a 3D content hosting provider, "selling" access to CPU and bandwidth resources for a fee - just like a Web hosting provider, or, if you wish, just like a mall owner with shops for sale in the mall.

In RL, you can "rent" Web space from a first-tier ISP, and resell it to your own customers, by setting yourself up as a small-scale Web hosting provider. You can charge your customers differently, and you can make them abide by different (or similar) terms of service. You have binding agreements with your customers - which do not tie the customer to the first-tier ISP at all. You can offer services, support, or anything else (really!) that the first-tier ISP doesn't care about. This is not only "legal" but possible in almost all countries in the world - thus, we're swamped with small-scale Web hosting providers.

Also, I'm not sure if SL itself is not precisely using the same type of agreement. After all, according to the IP address ranges SL uses, they're collocating with Internap. This means that, while the Linux servers running the SL grid may be propriety of Linden Lab (I'd guess they lease them - finantially, it would be better - but of course I don't know that), the infrastructure is certainly not "Linden Lab propriety". For us residents, it means that if the SL grid goes down, we're not going to blame Internap to provide low-quality service to their customer Linden Lab. No, the contractual agreement we have is with Linden Lab, and it's with LL that we deal when we have "grid problems".

All residents assume this to be the "natural way of doing things". We don't even give a second thought about it. We assume, naturally, that the SL grid is "Linden Lab propriety" and that the connections/infrastructure used by LL are "theirs", because that's the way the world works. Nobody, in his/her right mind, would "challenge" LL and say silly things like "hey, I won't pay you for access to your grid, since it's really Internap's". LL can prove, by every available legal means, that they "own collocation space" (however that is defined in legal wording, in the contract agreement LL has with Internap), and that they're legally entitled to run SL's grid on that. This is a rock-solid factual argument, and impossible to dispute by reasonable and sensible human beings

However, when things enter this virtual world, it appears that "common sense" does not prevail. What Anshe (and so many others, these days...) are doing is precisely the same - the use SL as a "colocation facility". They have "private sims" and a binding agreement with LL that allows them to do whatever they want with their "land" ("hosted 3D content space". They are entitled, under the ToS, to resell it or to rent it. And, more important than that, Anshe & others are able to set their own "resell or rental agreements" with their own customers.

I'm no expert either in US or international law, but I fail to understand the difference between both cases - Linden Lab collocating with Internap, or Anshe "collocating" with Linden Lab. I'm pretty sure that my lawyer friends would puzzle for months to spot any difference between both.

A "weak argument" would be that, in SL, you're doing business and entering contract agreements between virtual persona and thus you have no guarantees of dealing with "real persons" instead. Now, again, I'm no expert at US laws, but I know a smattering of international copyright laws. Under those, you can enter agreements between litterary pseudonyms and they are as binding as if you'd sign your true name in blood on a piece of paper, witnessed by the Pope, the Dalai Lama, and the President of the US, in person. Also, unless this has changed recently (or does not apply in California), US laws mostly assume that you can use whatever name you want, unless it's done for the purpose of fraud. Thus, the name "Anshe Chung" is as valid, for the purpose of any sort of contract agreement, than "George W. Bush" or "Arnold Schwarzenegger". Although, it's true, sadly many countries do not allow you to conduct business under other assumed names - except when dealing with copyright issues and working under a pseudonym. Some countries even go to the point of adding small-print in inside covers of books saying "The rights of INSERT PSEUDONYM HERE to the contents of this book are covered by the IP act of XXX".

As said, this is a "weak argument". I'm sure there may be a few loopholes exploitable by lawyers, specially if you're dealing with an international agreement between residents physically living in different countries (you'd have to be an expert in Californian law to be able to assess if what Anshe is doing is rock-solid under CA law or not - assuming that her conditions and terms or sale are done unde CA law!).

IRL, small-scale Web content providers who colocate at international facilities, do agreements under the terms of the country where they have their offices. So, if you provide Web hosting in Germany, with an UK-based company, although you colocate your servers in Russia or the US, your German customers will be bound by UK laws. This can easily get more and more complex. The point is, your German customers will not have an agreement with the colocation facilities in the US or Russia, but with an UK-based company. That agreement is as valid and as binding as the agreement between the hosting provider and the colocation provider, and nobody with a right mind would contest this.

In the view of Robin's postings on this, I can suggest only two courses of action:

- Change the current LL ToS to define, unambiguously, what a "land sale" is. In particular, explicitly disallow the usage of the term "land sale" when talking about sales in private sims. That way, Anshe & others won't be able to legally "offer parcels for sale" in private sims. They can, of course, have "covenants", "deeds", or "co-usage" agreements - my, the legal world is full of technical terms for ceding propriety rights to third parties, and I'm sure that the legal-savvy residents of SL are able to come up with something which is as legally binding as a "SL land sale" without referring it explicitly as a "sale"

- Accept what Anshe & others are doing as simply a colocation agreement and nothing else. Sales on private sims should be as legal, valid, and binding as sales on the mainland. In the latter, it's the ToS and the relationship with LL that protects consumers' rights. In the former, it's the contract agreement with Anshe & others that protects these very same rights. The choice of dealing with either Anshe & others or LL is just a question of trust by the buyer - nothing else.

Of course, from my personal point of view, I would encourage LL to go with the second course of action - it will make the metaverse building much more interesting, from a legal and economical point of view. But I can fully understand the possible misuse of this approach, and perhaps it's too soon for us residents to have it - thus, we should have a more restrictive ToS, and private sim owners would be forced to call their "sale" something completely different.

Either way, this is really a very interesting subject, and I'd like to read the opinion on the legal department of LL on this Never trust a legal opinion of an amateur, specially if she lives across the Atlantic, under a completely different set of laws

Hi I live in Europe. We have laws to.-))) In and out of cyber... Internet.. Banks are involved and they mostly sorten out business things,.,, I am sure they will this time to... as all are about money... bying land, hoses or clothes.. in or out of SL to))


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As I pay for the ”service” (Read SL) by a IRL Credit Card - I do a business agreement IRL world with Linden.

If i dont get in that case - what I are promised - the CC company will act. I get what i want so far - dont worry Lindens!.-DDD

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Inside SL. Paying with Linden Dollars:

Now we (?) are getting closer to the main question. All business IN SL - are Linden responsible for that? What each small or huge store IN SL offer and sell ???

IF the shop (in SL) dont deliver - who are responsible for that?

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Outside SL - Mix between IRL and SL:

IF I by something inside/or outside SL via my CC IRL directly to xxx - and not get what I pay' ed for- the CC company will act. And of course notice that this are done in SL world.

The CC company will of course help me to get money back IRL. yes I KNOW that from own experience ... .still no prob with Lindens.


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I dont go further right now in this kind of thinking.... as I think there are a lot of you fellows in SL that are doing both... and think of al this.. (sometimes)... and will cont this thread.... about this... IF we pay and how we pay - WHO are responsible for what??-))))

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Have fun! I have....

Oh dear, is there no way of ever stopping this endless flow of new people popping up to spout irrelevant semantics, philosophy, and pseudo-law?

I'll try it again.

What this form of land-holding is called is a PRACTICAL matter. It has no other significance to the huge majority of residents. If it is, in practice and use, sufficiently different to from what we have always called a "land sale", so that it needs a different name, then it must have one. We sure as eggs are eggs aren't gonna confuse the hell out of everyone by changing the old one.

Most of us here don't care much what the new name is, but just as a matter of common-sense it seems sane to draw on the pool of somewhat related RL words like "lease" or "sublease". If LL want to insist on "rental" that seems a little odd, but, man, its their prerogative.

This whole game is a metaphor. Don't take the particular metaphors chosen so literally. The significance, for us, is in the relations and interactions between those metaphors. Not in the names chosen for them.

Oh no, you've even pushed me towards philosophy now, if only in my eagerness to suppress it. Delete that paragraph ! Please don't start philosophising on that in this thread. Start another if you must.

Why don't you call it "The Philosophy and Semantics of the SL Metaphor, with Particular Reference to Land Holding ".

I'm sorry, I'm getting irritated.

Sorry, I left a bit out. The REASONS it needs a new name are several, but the principal one is nothing to do with the nature of the transaction itself, which I agree has quite a bit in common with a true land sale.

The principal reason, to my mind, is because of the huge difference in who your transaction is WITH, and the resulting risks. In the new form you are trusting with your assets, and agreeing to obey, another anonymous resident. Do I really need to spell out why that is significant ?

Perhaps as an add-on... what about letting all parcels be listed on the "Land Sales" tab, but add automatically an icon (say, the SL logo) on the parcels that are Linden Lab sales under the common ToS. Parcels without that icon may have different agreements and it's up to the seller to provide any further informations.

Just displaying the icon would be more than enough for starters, make everybody happy, and take about half an hour of developers' time to implement on the client side. In the near future, you could add an option to get a notecard, where you could read the sale agreements or something.

Gosh, other people appeared in your world! With ideas! An opinions! Geez. Well, there can be a way of stopping...just log off! Then...back to your cave and solitude.

I like Gwyn's idea of the Linden icon or trademark. They have that on first land now. I think they need an idea-o-gram or whatever you call it that signifies "first land" "regular land for sale for which you have to pay LL tier" and then "residents' land for rent" and "residents' land for sale under different terms."

I think call the entire listing "LAND OFFERINGS" and sort it out from there.

I think it's clear that the Lindens cannot cope with a land market that is needed to serve the entire population coming in. There are already complaints that they don't get enough first land out, although they do usually have a dozen or more pieces out. It may be that the game is growing faster than they wish, and they're finding ways to "throttle it". That's my suspicion until proven otherwise. I think their "throttling" goes in the direction of halting excessive Tringo, not putting out more first land, letting the tekkie wikis take the upper hand on a number of things (like giving them a big nod for their cards and islands to help newbies, etc.) while they let other dealers like Anshe get strung up or hung out to dry in the forums with no comment whatsoever. I see how it works, whether they do this consciously or not. They want a certain kind of person in this game, and not a certain kind of other person, and they steer and they funnel, like any high-end real-estate dealer steers and funnels to get higher-class neighbourhoods where the property values are higher.

Still, they can't quite cope. And if Anshe and others are willing to cope and even provide $1/meter land for newbies, let them! Let them take some of this burden and shoulder it. The Lindens should be encouraging this, not squelching it, and not leaving the people who do this out with no cover where they are lynch mobbed or pecked to death by the few socialists who dominate the list.