Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

Anshe,

Overall I am ambivalent about private island sim land. I actually think what you are doing with the zoned sims is interesting, if not a bit egomaniacal - but then no one has ever accused you of modesty. However, the semantics game you keep playing in this thread is disappointing. I would respect it more if you did acknowledge that there is a difference, and address the risks of that difference honestly. It would garner a lot more respect than the smoke and mirrors game of saying "It's no different", because it is. There are risks and rewards to it, and it is disingenuous to praise the rewards without being candid about the risks.

Example:

"Yes, you are taking an additional risk by buying land in this way. The benefits outweigh the risks, but it is important to understand their are risks. Obviously, I am not going to suddenly pull out of SL and screw everyone. However, the same cannot be said for all players who may attempt to do this on a smaller scale (not that someone doing it on a smaller scale has more potential to be corrupt). You should always research who you are buying from, and understand all the terms, risks, and benefits."

Certainly, for your own benefit, Anshe, an informed consumer is an ideal consumer - they are much more likely to buy. Quit expending so much energy claiming it is not different, when it is. If honor is such a centerpiece of your business, than being more forthcoming and using less marketing double-speak can only stand to benefit it.

Anshe,

What sort of securities do you offer your customers? Do you provide a real life PHYSICAL business address, and a customer service hotline, and also include your real name in all of your transactions with customers?

I think I was not clear Anshe, by saying that tier was tied to land ownership I meant that If I pay tier to LL there is no guarantee I will get land. LL's tier is the right to use land. If I go to ansheland and pay you tier directly, my expectation would be that you will provide me with land in exhange for tier. Is this not correct.

Really we are not precisely talkling about leases or sales. Calling some thing a sale does not make it one, nor does calling something a lease make it one. There are a number of ways to describe the transaction, I elected for simplicity.

Since linden labs is Ultimate sovereign then we assume legally, that they will be around, in the same manner we assume legally the us wil be around always. They are constants. (Yes LL could close and Yes the use could get creamed by an asteroid-but these scenarios are really non factors for this analysis).

Since linden labs is the soveriegn, an transfer of property from them provides maximum rights to the property. Similarly, a transer of land from one who bought land from LL (often first land) is a transfer of rights.

Due to the mechanics of the game however, A tranfer of land from ansheland is not free and clear. Anshe will always have an interest in the land. She will always have the ability to interfere with your use and enjoyment of the land. This is not to say she will, just that your title of the land is "subject to" anshe. I am certain Anshe intends sales to be sales, and that her status as holding the deed to your land in trust is a work-around, but never the less, what you get from Anshe (and other places) is not the same as what you get from LL.

I myself rent in Ravenglass rentals, and I am fine with the arrangement. But I cannot freely alienate my land. I can withdraw tier and move at whim, but I will never realize a profit from my land. Ansheland is slightly different in that you can sell land, but this must be done through Anshe, as I understand it.

I worry about this too, and it troubles me. It means that I can buy hundreds of dollars worth of land on the Lindens' auction, but if I miss one month's payment of tier on that land, it is all seized.

Now, that may be fair. They do give a 7-day grace period on this I believe. That should be enough time to fix up problems. But it is daunting to think that if you had to fly overseas on an emergency, and you were the kind of person who put in a PayPal debit rather than a credit card on your game because you just felt that was safer all around, you'd be royally screwed if you didn't fill up that PayPal account.

The TSO people are less harsh, in that if you miss a payment, or even voluntarily decide to freeze your account, you can have your land, house, and all your game assets remain on the server for a fixed time, I believe 90 days. You can get the name back even longer after that.

Is it fair to ask LL to do that? I just don't know. I have no idea what is involved in their saving of that kind of data on their server when the costs aren't covered. What might be nice is if they had an emergency freeze though, where someone could pay some nominal fee to keep the data frozen but not used. After all, they aren't getting the full use of their account if they are off on some emergency or something.

It's a harsh reality, this virtuality. It's not for the faint-hearted.

Toy, I hope you don't mind my answering. When I paid for my land, I invited Anshe to be an officer in my group. She then deeded the land to my group and then she left the group. So the land is deeded to my group and I am the sole officer. I can use it like I did with land I owned. I can terraform and add trees or take away trees. The biggest problem I had when I rented was being able to move trees and terraform. This doesn't happen with the land I bought from Anshe.

You can terraform and plant trees with no problem when you rent, in which ever form it takes.

I'm not going to spend long on this because it is borderline off topic - It is not unfair to expect that your assets be protected for a certain length of time longer than 7 days when you're paying tier and premium. Whether you're "buying" land or "renting" or "leasing" land from the Lindens you are paying more than the 9.95 one time on the game forever avatar. If that one time fee avatar can expect to be here 4 years from now, then the premium tier player should expect to have their belongings and land protected also, even more so if you ask me. Now it's my understanding that land and build was lost due to one missed payment and month away - tricky for the lindens (whom apparently do not have a daily back up of data in place - this is what caused myself and my partner to leave SL) but I would think a 45 day wait before seizing land wouldn't be unreasonable, because emergencies do happen, even with seizure your build should have been protected (some of that responsiblity should be yours - keep a copy in your inventory) but the item/build should have been returned to you.

So with that said, I feel paying premium should in a perfect SL entitle the player to backup of assets and a longer than 7 day grace period, paying tier should aquire you land asset and protect you're "ownership" for longer than a 7 day grace period - but that's just the way I would do things if I had been smart enough to create a virtual world like this one.

Now, I "own" land in Ess, no where near the 2/3 of sim I owned in Gama, but I am addicted to the creativity that SL allows me and missed my friends *waves at April*, let's hope I won't have an emergency - According to the implied manual and the TOS I own my land until I violate TOS and get myself suspended or banned - I would like to think that my land is still mine if suspended (a set number of days in time out) but waived if banned.

Can I ask if this was a island you purchased then?

I've helped run one'f the largest and oldest group theme builds in SL for about a year and a half now, and let me outline this simply.

A) you own land you buy from LL and you pay them a 'tax' or tier fee for it every month, just like land RL you 'own' that you pay the us government for every month

B) you do not own land you 'buy' from anshe or any other island owner. Your group leases it and you pay for the priveledge. and group land is crippled compared to single owner land, significantly. but you don't have to take my word for it, try these out yerself.


Ways in which group land is crippled

1) no build and no script are unusable because they affect everyone since no avatar is the owner, and no setting your group bit properly doesn help

2) Speaking of group bit, if you want to use auto return, you had better watch yer group bit like a hawk, or you can loose alot of work.

3) scripted objects that need land permissions need to be group deeded, doing so often breaks permissions, or is unusable with bought objects that are no transfer or no copy this makes it a serious pain for any non scripter to have radios, video panels, security systems, and many other things

4) 'selling' group land (and this is a BIG one)... okay... first of all there is going to be the issue of group sustainability, this requires a group to have three members. Im not even going to get into what will happen if a group dissolves because someone leaves, etc.. but selling group land is a serious pain. first of all the group gets the money on sale, not you, and you are going to have to wait till tomorrow (or the day after) to get that money back into your own account. NOW if your group has the requisite three people... that money is going to be doled out to each of them... so now you have to convince the other minimum two people you have been sharing with, to give you that money back. This basically boils down to with private land you set it for sale for $1000 someone buys it, you get $1000 that second. Group land you set it for sale for $1000, someone buys it tuesday, you get $334 in your account on thursday morning, and have to track back your friends, (or alts, which in this case is probably the better system but how many probably new people are going to be making multiple alts to jus hold a small plot?) to get the rest.

and theres other little annoyances too that come up from time to time. But to equate a group sublet of an island plot, with buying land on the mainland, is an absolute farce.. unless anshe (or someone far less established) is going to spend an hour with each new interested party explaining all of these caveats upfront and in detail so no one makes a mistake and looses big.

I'm not saying its a bad thing tho, believe me i think it can be interesting and useful, its just a far more complex, problem-prone, and potentially unreliable way of having a plot to call your own in SL, and that means there is no way these plots should be listed as 'for sale' because they are not for sale, they are for lease. (again owning a house RL is a good comparison, you pay taxes for your property to the government, but you are the owner, just as you own private land in SL but pay your tier to LL.. now you can RENT a floor of that house out to someone who will sign a lease and pay you for it every month... just like an island owner can rent out a piece of their land via this somewhat akward group loophole... to equate signing the lease on that floor, with owning the deed for that home, is a joke

There are more than 50 land owners in "Ansheland" and quite a few people who are renting there too. They have all tried it out themselves.

The reality is that there exist different kinds of land ownership in Second Life now. Owning land in Boardman is not same thing as owning land in Mahulu which is not same as New Hamlet. Each has advantages and disadvantages and might appeal to different target group.

I personally don't care if you buy on mainland or "Ansheland" because chance is that in both case you do business with me.

But to be fair, balanced and objective one should not focus on one type of land ownership and try shoot it down. Because I could also point out why land ownership on mainland is "crippled":

- Lag. I can use double draw distance on "Ansheland" compared to mainland
- Mega clubs and mega malls bringing framerate on your land down to barely moving
- Black shoe boxes and rotating flying cubes popping up all over
- No ability to dig deep basements or caves in most mainland sims
- No sims with consistent building themes to choose from
- Newbies who don't know about tier fees buy land and are up for big surprise after they paid the Linden$!
- No banning of griefers from whole sims
- Long flying distance between telehubs

Just to name some. Everybody has personal preferences and priorities

eltee, the examples you told about are completely correct, and yes, they are disadvantages of group owned land, which you, when you "buy" land on a private island have to have. two of those disadvantages i experienced myself but ... and thats a big "but": i found solutions to both probs in few minutes and i have not heard of a single neighbour in "ansheland", who has experienced these problems or has voiced any concerns about them.

so, i would like to point out, that these disadvantages exist - but they are of not much relevance to someone who is looking to build his or her private home in a nice surrounding. to call "my land" in one of anshe's sims "my" land is not "a joke" or "a farce" to the residents typically living there. it is, what we feel and experience. its like with a lot of the posts in these discussions: i ask myself, why don't you ask the people who really live there?

as anshe pointed out: it is good that there are different options available for diffferent tastes and needs. not every option is good for everyone. but why ridicule one, you don't think appropriate for yourself?

Anshe, you offer an excellent option to SL residents. I have seen the sims myself and they're beautiful. I am not going to knock something that offers an excellent alternative like Ansheland. What I do object to, is you calling them sales when they are in fact rentals.

I really hate repeating myself, and I am sure others are getting bored of it as well so I will make this my last post on this subject.

*Every time you order a sim, you know full well that you get a standard email containing the following-

" The island can only be transferred as a single parcel. It will not be possible to sell subsections of the island at any time."

Now to me that is a pretty clear indication of LL's stance on the sale of private island plots, even if it was possible to do so.

*At any time you can reclaim the land, whether you're an officer of the group the land is deeded to or not. I am in no way suggesting you would, but it's another indication of who the true owner is.

The deeding of private estate land was intended to make it easier for the owner of the land to share permissions with other residents, not to allow them to sell plots on it. The deeding of private estate land is an excellent additional tool that has been povided for us to ease things like rentals. You're offering a similar rental service as others in SL, but you're convincing residents they own the land when they in fact do not.

I would love to be able to sell private estate land. Heck, if I could, I would be ordering more sims straight after this post. When I first saw your private estate land up for sale, I enquired straight away if there was a policy change on this. The fact is, we can not.

I do think from time to time you get unwarranted attacks from those who are jelous, in competition, etc, but on this subject, YOU ARE WRONG.

But there was a policy chance, in order to increase sales (I gather they were lagging) and a promise was indeed held out that deeding of parcels on private islands was going to revolutionize the zoned community opportunities.

I know that's how Anshe understood it because I talked with her about this several times in the weeks leading up to the new patch, and it was her -- and my and others' -- understanding that the new patch with the option to issue deeds was going to make these residential projects far easier to do.

Indeed, the very word "deed" is what led her and others to go forward with these projects. Linden Labs didn't say "rent" or "lease" -- they said "deed". "Deed" implies a type of ownership.

LL wanted to make those sales. They changed some of the features of the private islands that made them less attractive. They made the sales to Anshe. Then they began to get cold feet, not during, and not after the sales but *only when* a minority of players, either from other sectors of business, or from the general landbaron-hating class, began to agitate the Lindens.

I'm trying to understand their motivation. It's jealousy, for some. The fake indignation has no basis in reality -- there isn't any group of angry defrauded customers with islands having changed hands. Could it be they just want to retain the freedom of the grid and it's "self-expression" and maximalize the griefers' options, making sure no one can ever escape from them? Surely not. Then what is it?

Somebody found a way around all the horrors of the mainland grid -- the griefing, lag, and ugliness. Why aren't they being applauded and helped? Why aren't they be cncouraged in what they do, and workarounds being sought?

Those clamouring most against this aren't even people who intend to buy this land, or for that matter, any land at all. So why are they getting involved?

Right now, Nexus Nash has his zoned communities showing in the list by setting the land for sale to $0 for himself. I can see it on my land list. Perhaps Anshe should try that method too. I see no reason why not. The same people who screamed about the private island ads will likely scream about this (I've already heard them doing so) but it's about as good a workaround as any to the recurrent problem of lack of advertising capacity in this game.

I can still see Ansheland int the land list too. and set at normal prices.

Yes it is a 16k Island.

I browsed all the posts... read most. I, as a player, have the right to choose where I and who I want to buy (insert whatever word you believe to be right here, I will use buy) land from.

I also have the right to use the provided tools to find my options for purchase. I understand the desire to clearly label Linden land from Private land.. I agree it should be seperated but it should not be taken out of the tools.

I also am intelligent enough to know both the benefits of private sims and risks involved in investing into private sims. Again though that is my choice to make. By completely removing private sims from the land find tool you are taking that choice from me.

Regardless of how you personally view private island sales, call them whatever word that makes you sleep better at night, everyone has the right to decide on their own how they want to invest their time and money into SL.

I personaly will never go back to mainland sims for residential dwelling. I have no lag, no tall malls with nasty looking textures and adult toy signs spinning in circles around me, and I have all the tools available to me that I did as a mainland owner. Sure they're are some inherent risks involved but to me the benefits outweighed the risks.. by alot.

We need to stop trying to force our opinions and views onto each other and start to come up with constructive feedback on ways to please both sides. A way to include private sims in the land find tool yet make it so it is clear that it is a private sim and not linden land.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Thank you Jesse, it is such a breath of fresh air to read something that is sane, no-nonsense, common sense -- a person who knows their own mind and refuses to be bullied.

And what's important for readers to note is that there are a lot more people like Jesse coming in this game. (And it is a game, and you won't convince me to call it by your pretentious Snowcrash/metaverse/blah blah names). You won't be able to bully them with your theories and all your condescending crap. You are not going to persuade her that she's a "victim of the duplicitous landowning class" because she won't.

She's concentrated the mind wonderfully on what's wrong with the mainland grid in many places: the idiotic rotation script put into the hands of every errant newbie. Gah, they really ought to make people pay to use that thing -- like you want me to pay to use the forums, mmm?

And the reality is there are more people like that in the game now who want to settle in and life and have a residential life, and less people who taunt and find fault and pick on landowners and their clients.

I'm not getting into the discussion of who is right and who is wrong.. as I've said, and many others many times before.. What is right for you, may not be for me, and vice versa.

What I will do.. After reading each and every thread (not skipping any) is answer some questions that have already been answered again and again, for those of you who want to argue rather than read the threads.

Dreamland Sims Info:

As my picture shows, back on one of the earlier pages.. YES OUR names/group are on the about land tools, not Anshe. That's because it is DEEDED. DEED means OWN. When you lease a car, do you get the title? when you rent a house, do you get the deed? Not where I'm from.

YES we can terraform our INDIVIDUAL lots..

YES we can ban people from our lots, and if trouble some enough, that person can be banned from the whole SIM.

YES we can build, create, plant, etc.

YES we can have parties

YES we CAN resell the land! which is quite easy enough to do WITHOUT neededing to collect ANY money EXCEPT from the buyer. Have them pay YOU then sell it to THEM for $0. No need to collect from group members.

YES we know it's ultimately in Anshe's name, just as the mainland grids are ultimately in LL's name.

YES Anshe has a in-world staff to help with issues just as LL has the various Lindens..

YES this may NOT be for you! but it IS what we CHOSE and how we CHOSE to LIVE.



Please, keep the peace.. Stop arguing about technical improbabilities, what if's and what was intended. Unless you were the one who created Second Life's intentions, then do you REALLY know what they are? Your opinion of the "intentions" is worth nothing more than mine is, and NEITHER one could be right.

Please people. Act like the adults that you say you are when you agree to the SAME rules as the rest of us do. Acting childish will get everyone a whole lot of nowhere except hurt feelings, flairing tempers, and all around chaos.


I hate to act like a lil old lady here who feels the need to say "STOP JUMPING ON THE BED!!" but come on people.

Step back.. take a breath.... Look around.. Read, think.. then talk... you will find everyone is much more willing to hear what you have to say if you are calm and not condesending. Just as an example, I bet this thread will very well likely anger quite a few.. but THAT is my POINT! SEE how CHILDISH it looks???


we now return you to your regularly scheduled program, and the suddenly non-possessed Alysa that you all know and love.. (well, at least know.. hahaha)

ummm a 16k island?

It just happens that the first person offering plots privately has carefully chosen to make her first offerings look very similar to normal sales. This allows her to argue subtly for them to be treated, and talked about, similarly.

She could have offered quite different "contracts" for which such treatment and talk would be absurd. Since a private sim owner has huge freedom to offer any deal he thinks people may like, we shall shortly see this happening (eg "free land" or "no tier".

If we give the right to use words like "sold" and "tier" to these first deals, we cannot deny the same right to those who follow. Confusion and chaos will result, to the potential benefit of the unscrupulous.

These new and varied deals must be carefully distinguished and separated from normal sales (both in the UI, and by what they are called).
This is necessary so that customers can hardly avoid full knowledge of the increased risks, as well as the considerable advantages.

I'm trying to be brief. In case it isn't clear I may post a longer version in a moment.

Just for Alysa:

I fully understand that you were answering questions specifically about where you love to live, Alysa, but you were not actually posting general "Private Sim Info". Just info about Anshe's sims, this week. Another owner might make different rules, place different restrictions, charge quite differently. Anshe may change things later, add different deals.

Dont you think all this detailed talk about what one person is offering is derailling the thread? It doesn't really matter how wonderful Victoria is, or Anshe's team. Unless this is an advertising thread ?

Surely what matters here is what the next wave of private sim entreprenuers do, and what protections we need from THEM. Forget Anshe - she's a one-off.

How do YOU think we should protect people from LESS TRUSTWORTHY Anshe look-alikes offering a highly varied range of different deals?

I'd really, really like to see you address exactly that question, which is what so many of the rest of us are concerned about.

Prok

I'm afraid I cant go along with your "conspiracy theory" of elite older players objecting to the way these "leases" are being confused with normal sales, just out of spite. I have posted against it more than most, and I am about as far as you can get from being elite or old. Nor am I the alt or stooge of such a person.

My motivation is threefold. To protect less knowledgeable players from confusion, to ensure that they know there are real extra risks BEFORE the sales pitch sucks them in, and to keep a level playing field in the price comparison lists for those who are selling land normally. Land without any of the precise extra financial and privacy risks (and rules and restrictions) associated with taking "subleases" from another anonymous player.

Do you need me to list them? Do you think there aren't any?

And yes, Prok, of course there are big balancing benefits too, at least in Anshe's particular case. Her sims ARE lovely at the moment, and promise you her protection from many bad things.

But you must agree, Prok, that the specifics of what Anshe is doing right now (eg packaging it up to look like a normal sale, and generally being a good landlord) are not the main point.

What will the NEXT WAVE do? Different deals, different people, different risks, different benefits.

May not look like ordinary sales at all. And no bad thing, if everybody is fully informed.

How different do YOU think the next wave will be, Prok ? Aren't you going to be one of them ?

Anshe really isn't the point, is she ?

It's SO easy to deflect everybody onto the specifics isn't it?
So they miss the main point, and don't support sensible steps to handle the bigger implications.

Two or three weeks time, it'll begin to dawn. When the first new offers from new people start appearing.

Actually that poset was for the few who keep asking the same questions again and again, without taking the time to read the answers before asking again.


And you're right, that was for what I know of the private sim I in particular live in, so yes I will change that terminology.

as far as the future people selling sim land, I've never disputed that I think they should be listed individually from land sales, but I do dispute that they should not be called sales, IF they are sales... Future land barons may decide to call theirs rentals, leases, limit abilities, whatever.. That's part of what comes with a zoned community.. and I believe they in turn should describe their land contracts accurately to reflect their situation. As I've said I don't know what their plans are, nor am I sure they know. I don't know them, and many of may not know who they are, or will be 1 month from now, 5 months from now, even 5 years from now.

We need to find an accurate term/s for these kinds of sales, lumping them all into one term called lease just does not do it. If we wanted to get technical, which we don't, I could argue that Linden land bought in a PG sim is a lease, after all if you show mature content in a PG sim you risk quite a bit. In a way Mature and PG are zoning standards. Anyone know exactly what happens to a person if they walk around nude in a PG sim? Or show a porn move on a huge screen in their front yard?


If we try to cover "everything" we will accomplish something, that is true. We will limit ourselves so badly no one will be able to do anything, not just the baron/esses. And we will get to a point that no one will do anything for fear of what "might" happen.


As I told my hubby on the steps to recovering our relationship.. baby steps... one step at a time.. one goal at a time... don't look 10 years down the road, look to tomorrow. Things will seem so much simpler, and less of a mountain to climb.

Couldnt have said it better, thanks Lindar

Risk Assessment.... That is how.

Did you just purchase this game without checking out the site? Checking on Linden Lab's itself? Determining for yourself if you beleive the company backing the game is worthy of your dollar? I know I did.

I also checked up on Anshe, no offense Anshe. I checked her previous posts, I did a forum search on key words with her name. I read what others had to say ingame and on here. I talked to trusted friends. Basically I did a risk assessment of her and her company. I certainly would not blindly go into a deal with anyone, Linden included, without first getting some assurance of the risk involved.

In virtual worlds the only thing we have is our word for our reputation. It takes months, sometimes years to build up your name but it only takes seconds to ruin it. It is not hard to determine what risk the next private sim owner would be. Then you need to determine if that risk is within your range of acceptability.

Anshe was well within my range of acceptability of risk. I took her up on her offer and sold my 8k of mature mainland. I do understand what you are getting at, but again... everyone has the right to determine their own acceptability, their own choices. It is up to the lindens to provide tools for us to make the community they have voiced they do not want to create themselves.

I also agree that part of that risk assessment is a clear, easy to understand, seperation of Linden owned land and private sim land within the land finder tool. At the sametime the private sim land for sale (again insert the word that you like best) needs to be an option in the tools interface also.

To created a working, thriving, living virtual community supported and ran by the playerbase you need players to be running the land also. I believe Philip Linden hinted at how players themselves need to create the micro governments that players were discussing. It is impossible to create a governership if thier is no way to enforce the laws set forth. Anshe, and I assume other private sim owners will also, has set forth rules to their lands. They have become the governors to enforce those rules that we agreed upon when we invested into the community. We will hold her to enforcing those rules as stated also.

I am relatively new, I am not trying to be arrogant at all, so if any of this is not correct please let me know. It is only how I understood it during the Town meeting the other week with Philip.