Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

I agree. Warren, to design a system protect the "renter" properly is a big undertaking.

The question is, should we try ? Is land so different from other things ? We provide no protection for buyers of objects, it's "buyer beware".

I think maybe it's best to let the market work, and people make their own decisions.

If I were LL I would just do the following.

I would write a notecard, describing how different it was to "buy" in a private sim, and the extra risks, and the need to trust the sim owner. I would make it a TOS violation for a private sim owner to "sell" land without giving the "buyer" a copy of this notecard.

______________________________________________________________________

In addition (of course) to removing private island land from the normal "land for sale" list, and finding another advertising method, so buyers are not misled, and proper sellers not disadvantaged.

I quite agree with Buster that it's time to put away the indignation.

A good deal of it is phony. It's coming from people who are savvy about land-buying and are raising hypotheticals -- raising the temperature of the discussion around hypotheticals that they themselves aren't prepared to investigate through experience. There isn't a single example that anyone come up with to show that any innocent newb has been bilked.
There's no case of anyone who has right-clicked on Anshe's land and been horridly deceived. They can't right-click on her land and spend the scant $19999 for a 4096 she offers (what a deal!!!). Because it won't work in the normal way. So there is no one that has been hosed that we've been aware of.

It is only LL's own hypotheticals on this that is operating, they don't have any rash of complaints of bilked customers.

Anshe has made it clear in her ads that you have to contact her to get the terms because you are buying from her and paying tier to her

I don't think anyone realizes what really goes on in Anshe's communities because they haven't bought in them as I have. You can't right-click and buy them and get robbed. You'll have to deal with her if you wish to make the purchase. The rentals work like any rentomatics anywhere, right-click, pay, get a scripted box, etc. that has all the due and proper notices on it. Most people in her communities appear to rent -- as in rentomatic -- than buy.

Buying takes dealing with her, getting the cards personally paying her, and paying tier to her on paypal. When you want to leave, you either sell it back to her at her fixed price, which will be at a relatively small loss for you given her services, or you find a buyer and sell it yourself. I've just seen someone go through that process, and it's a straightforward one. So let's pose this hypothetical -- that someone is "horribly" upset they've found out they "didn't really buy" Anshe's land. Well, guess what? They get a refund minus some service fee. Or they go out and find a buyer and make a profit off their "mistake" LOL. They won't have a shortage of applicants to buy from because most people "get it" that when they buy into Ansheland, they are buying insurance from ugliness and griefing.

As for setting land to sale for $0, this would be something I'd support in theory. If you do it now, it won't show up in the list in fact, except to yourself, but not to others. Indeed, when you rush breathlessly to a land set to $0 sale, you will not be paying any purchase price whatsoever -- you will be paying rent, the same or less than tier to LL. I view this as a debatable question, and I'd be willing to be persuaded by enough people if they really thought it was somehow misleading -- I don't require it to get someone to my rentals. It would only be a workaround someone would attempt to get in the list, precisely because of the poor capacity for advertising in-game.

It's my understanding that when Anshe negotiated with LL with this very big purchase, it was established that the in-game land list would be useable. So it's not an "exploit". If there was a reneging or rethinking of that post-factum, that's not Anshe's fault. It's merely LL thinking through that there could be misuse of the system to rob people.

We're not aware of any *actual* cases of fraud attempts were any actual people attempted to do this -- again, it's exploration of a hypothetical.

But while everyone explores their mathematical hypotheticals, think about the reality of the situation: scores of people are escaping "ugly" and "grief" -- which aren't hypotheticals.

thank you Prokofy for pointing out the details I forgot No one can buy private sim land from Anshe wihtout going to her webpage. If you don't read the webpage, then you don' tknow how to buy her land. Everything is posted, everything is visible. Nothing is hidden between the lines.


People, don't turn this into a debate about whether or not buying from Anshe is good for you or not. Chemotherapy is good for cancer patients, but not good for anyone else. Insulin is good for diabetics but could kill a non-diabetics. Whether her land is for you or not is not the point of this debate. Her land IS for me, and for many others. We, however are mature enough not to persecute you because it's not for you. That is your choice, just as it is our choice to live here.

Those of us that do live here, and have paid the tiers and bought the land, do consider it owned. Paying tier to Anshe, or paying tier to LL. Buying from Anshe or buying from LL. either way you look at it, you are paying tier and buying land. If you call what Anshe does as rental, then you also rent from LL.

For arguments sake, Lets do a comparison...

When you buy Land from either...
You pay money up front to
LL AND Anshe..
You pay a monthly tier to
LL AND Anshe
You can edit your land within limits..
LL and Anshe's land
You can build your house, or put up a prefab
LL and Anshe's Land..
(looking pretty similar to me.)
Add music to your land
LL AND Anshe
Ban/allow/do not enter rights
LL and Anshe

Those are the basics of land ownership right?

I wont compare the added benefits of owning through Anshe, because that's NOT what this discussion was intended to be. (although I will vouch for it every time)


This isn't owning? Why isn't it? My lot is deeded to my group. Just as all my other lots are group owned, (except the one for sale).

These are not hypotheticals, Prok.

When the buyer is scouting round that list to see which plots she'll visit (and she has limited time) this "rented" land can be indistiguishable from a normal sale, and it looks cheaper, and that may likely clinch her decision to visit this particular plot.

This disadvantages the rest of us attempting a normal sale.

Unsuspecting purchasers, just when they have invested the effort in travelling to the plot, expecting to be able to click-buy, suddenly face a sales pitch (what ? a notice? a notecard? an automatic IM?) for another way of doing things which they did not expect or ask for.

Whether the other way of doing things is good or bad is no defence. This is a "product switch". It is misleading. It is unasked for. It should stop instantly.

Just because there is currently no good way of advertising the new product does NOT justify it masquerading as what it is not. You land owners should ask the Lindens for such a new way of advertising to be created, and accept whatever priority they assign it in the feature queue. Until then, why not advertise in-world, or pay for "message of the day" to direct people to a forum for "hire-purchase" of land ?

If Anshe had reached such a clear no-misunderstanding agreement as you describe, I certainly haven't seen her quite claim this in forum. Unless you can point me to such a posting, I don't believe you. Even then there may have been a mis-communication. I find it very hard to believe the Lindens knowingly agreed to this at a sufficiently authoritative level.

How do you know LL have received no complaints ? A definite "hypothetical".

the only thing wrong with the comparison is..... all that are listed are true.... excpet you pay anshe and she has to pay LL so its an additional step your leaving out

Did this happen *to you*? No, because you didn't buy there or attempt to buy there.
Did it happen to anyone else we've heard of? No, because it's a hypothetical of something that might happen, but didn't. Let's remember that.

Have you actually gone out to Ansheland and right-clicked on the land and seen what happens, as I have? You don't right-click on a land and have the purchase go through because you have to contact Anshe to make the purchase and the cards you get and your conversation with her makes it all clear.

So could you cite a concrete example where you see a land on the list, fly out there, and get hosed? I don't see it.





That's their first clue they aren't in Kansas anymore. The sale doesn't go through unless they get an expanation. It is not a product switch if they don't get a buy, but the normal expectation of right-clicking and buying doesn't happen, and something else happens. Then they get the explanation, and they leave or not.

Most are only to thrilled, they get it, and they go through the extra steps to get the extra protection from griefing and harassment and ugly. I think you need to walk through these steps as I have, go to the communities, do it. Talk to the people coming and going from them, as I have. When you've made that field trip and gathered some field data, let's talk some more. What you're doing is responding to an indignation-machine on the forums and getting indignant. Go in world, get some experience, and let's talk later.



I'm glad you've taken on the really awesome but difficult task of becoming a Better Business Bureau. I've been lobbying about this for some time now. I just wrote Robin Linden about it again today! It's one of my hobby horses. Let's form one. Let's make this be our first case we investigate if it troubles you. We can see if this business is engaging in fraud by collecting customer complaints, examining them in good faith, and seeing if there is any merit to them.

I wasn't away that you could pay for a message of the day? There is such a thing? You can pay for the ebay links but they're expensive.

I personally only sell land the normal old-fashioned way where you click and buy and then you deal with the Lindens, not me. I do have a few limited programs of rent-to-buy, one of which is all sold now and filled only with happy customers, and the other which is moving along but slowly because it's more specialized. On my land, I put a house set to glow in yellow light with a giant yellow sign on it. It said STAKE RENT BUY on it. If you came to Pickering, you couldn't miss this big yellow thing. My advertisement for it on the forums explained the program. You come, you join the group, you put down a prim to claim some land, you ask the owner to parcel it, you either start a rental box or you buy it for the stated price directly out of the can. It wasn't put on the normal click-and-buy device merely to prevent land traders from coming and scarfing it up to flip it because I was trying to offer it more cheaply for non-profit use.

I found that even when you have a big yellow box and have cards and tell people stuff a hundred times, they don't get it LOL. But then, I often still get people who come and rent from me straight out of the box and thing I'm the Lindens and scream at me if the sim crashes LOL. People have wildly differing levels of knowledge and understanding of this game. So I explain it many times over. I've never had a case where someone somehow didn't get it if they were buying land or paying rent that was all going to add up to the purchase price for them at a future date. I mean, people do get it.

I use innovative devices to sell land, and I use the regular devices of the land list or the forums or notecard givers in mall space I rent, etc.



Scroll back up through this thread and Anshe's recounting of the story:J



It was my understanding that she wouldn't have ever bought the islands if she hadn't had an understanding that it was oK to advertise in the list. Anshe believed them, even if don't believe me. Just scroll back up through her accounts. She acted in good faith based on past experience and what she was led to believe.



Because they didn't say they had?

Alysa,

You are correct. This is not about whether it is good or bad to rent/buy from Anshe, or any other island-owner
.
It is about MISLEADING ADVERTISING for commercial advantage.

About the rights and wrongs of allowing an entirely different way of holding land to be incorrectly advertised and offered. Indistinguishably mixed in with normal sales, so that buyers can be mislead and sellers disadvantaged by faulty price comparisons.

It would make no difference if one particular seller was offering the best deal imaginable.
Or even if all of them were. Switching the product after the customer has travelled to you is WRONG. Period.

Your attempt to prove that your method of ownership is the same as mine is laughable, I'm sorry. Group membership? Are you an officer ? Are you THE officer ? How many officers are there?

Don't be silly. Ansheland may be great, and has great anti-griefing advantages. But it is absolutely and fundamentally NOT the same ownership, with the same rights, freedom and independence.

Why on earth do you want to pretend it is ? No-one is saying it's inferior. Just different. A different product. Good to have choice. But not to be wilfully confused.

Unless I missed something, Anshe simply says she was "under the impression" that she would still be able to advertise the land in that fashion. If she had directly asked the question to LL before buying all of those sims and this happened, then she would have LL by the balls (or at least one of their employees) and would be in a much better position to either get her money back or go with other alternatives. My guess is that she didnt ask this directly and she pretty much is at the mercy of LL like the rest of us. Lets hope they come up with a functional system soon to not only help out people like Anshe do business but to protect and inform their customers as well.

Lindar,

Have you been able to get in-world get (I know there are log-in problems) to actually go out to Anshe land after clicking on the land list (or if they removed that already, just fly out there from the top of the teleporting list, Ak'sha Dunes for example).

Then get back to us with a field report.

I do know one thing that you've succeeded in doing with this thread, most likely, although one can never be sure given that nobody reads the forums in the game LOL.

You've sowed additional mistrust and even hatred against landowners and landlords who rent *in general* by raising a rather arcane issue about advertising that will get blurred in the general chaos and simply be remembered as a nasty thing about those ebil landlords.

Yes, the fraction of posters who hate commerce and hate the land business especially already do a lot to sow that hatred, and you've fueled it further.

That doesn't bother me because I'm used to it. I walk around the robots.

But you claimed that your problem with this wasn't that Anshe sells land, or that she has happy customers free of griefing. Your problem is just in what you feel is misleading packaging.

The reality is that your rant on the misleading packaging you *think* is the case is succeeded in merely fueling an already existing anti-land owner and renter sentiment.

So just think about that for a bit. Go in world and really experience what you are talking about. And ask whether your clamour to have Anshe's advertising shut down -- a clamour that Cristiano and blaze effectively already engaged in in-game, with the Lindens, and on the forum -- was worth it.

Clearly, blaze felt it was worth it, because he wanted airtight assurances that his investment -- putative -- if he were to make it -- wouldn't go to the dog's breakfast that he thinks is SL (that was never MY phrase lOL). Cristiano clearly thought it was worth it -- anything to strike a blow at those nefarious ebil landowners that suck away cash from the content king sector LOL. Whatever.

But I do hope that your mission, if it was a good-hearted one, has been accomplished. Even if you won't go out to Ansheland and click on stuff, we now have at least some tiny percentage of players (people in the game don't read the forums) who are now empowered and emboldened to take a weathered, jaundiced eye to Anshe's claims, and get what they need to get out of this game.

I see absolutely no willfull attempt to confuse people. Quite the opposite, in fact, Anshe wants her customers to completely understand *EXACTLY* what the deal is. She says so every time addresses the issue.

In general, I completely agree with your entire post, with the exception that I think its wrong to imply malice where there clearly isn't any.

Buster

thanks



How is it misleading? Misleading implies you don't know something up front, or that you were told it is something it's not. Neither are true in this situation. With a teleport in every sim, you don't even have to "travel" more than you can walk.



I agree that switching the product is wrong. But SHE'S NOT doing that. Not in any way, shape or form.



Laughable? well laughing is better than throwing out insults, don't ya think? and Yes. It is my group. I created it, I own it, I am the only officer. The members of my group are my tenants and close friends.



I didn't think i was being silly at all. I was being completely serious and polite. Should a mature adult behave differently?

It's those reasons, the freedom of lag, the freedom of malls, the independance to be able to walk outside without crashing that I am willing to pay for, and you may think it is silly, but I feel it's a worthwhile investment. One I, nor any of those of us choosing to believe so, should be chastized or critized for our choices. Telling us we are mislead or that we bought land not knowing it was on a private sim is like saying we are stupid. And that's just plain rude, there is no nice way to say it. I have not called anyone choosing to live on the mainland names, nor have I said you were stupid. Please have the same courtesy for me.

I dont look at it as misleading..... the tabs simply need to reflect the difference and they dont now. If Im looking for land for sale I fully expect it to be just that. No matter what is added value means nothing to me. If I want land I want to buy it, not add another layer of someones rules to it. I dont fault anyone who is doing this now since its how the sales are set up now but it does need a change to reflect the differences.

NO NO NO NO NO

I never said or implied that YOU had been misled, Alysa. How could I possibly know that ?

Just that others were being misled. Did you not notice my point about mixing together two different sorts of pricing as though they were the same? Giving one an unfair advantage in attracting viewers? An advantage over other sellers ? Did you not notice that ?

As for
" With a teleport in every sim, you don't even have to "travel" more than you can walk."

Even on private islands, you can still get trapped in rezzing buildings, zapped by security systems or land bans (or is this a freedom you give up?). You can crash out during teleport. Who are you to say that I can spare the time for a maybe hazardous wasted journey to read an advert instead of finding the immediate normal land purchase I expected?

Please understand, when used normally the land list is an unconditional offer to sell instantly, via a click, at the advertised price, with the standard Linden ownership rights. Subject only to inevitable database updating delays.

When the buyer arrives at the island plot, attracted perhaps by the artificially low price, he is faced with an entirely different and unexpected proposition. No immediate purchase. Read some information. Go to a website. Try to understand this new sort of offer. Decide how much you can trust another resident you may never have heard of. The product he expected HAS been switched for something different. He, as a customer, has been misled about what he would be able to buy when he arrived.

Why can you not see that these two products are different? That it is misleading to mix them ? Can't you see that ? One involves placing huge trust in another resident.You can't assume it will be Anshe. Anybody with an island can do it. Anshe with her wonderful sims is totally irrelevant. Currently ANYBODY can do it. ANYBODY.

These are the reasons it should be stopped immediately. Then we can think about how Anshe and friends can advertise their new product. They do need a way. But immediately? With a gun to Linden's head ?

My remarks about groups. Your reply surprises me. Maybe I should apologise. Are you telling me that the land you hold is recognised by the server as belonging to your group, with you as officer? That it gives you as group officer all normal ownership rights and powers ? That Anshe's power and ultimate ownership is not because her group owns your land, with her as officer, you as member?

If I have totally misunderstood how this works, please accept my apologies.

So how does she hold ultimate power ? Is it via some special mechanism which allows her simply to seize the land back? Is it all or nothing ? I guess I'd better go read her webpage if I have it so wrong.

But it does go to show, there is little general understanding of how this way of doing things works. Presumably an owner can chose any mix of upfront cost/rental, allowing him at present to advertise land for "sale" at any price he likes?

So a sim owner has the ability to advertise at any price at all, with the balancing "tier" hidden away from sight. You think that's fair to other people selling normally next to him in the list ?

You really see nothing wrong in that?

Dont take things to heart so, Alysa. I really am not saying that Anshe's product isnt great. I am really not criticising any of the choices you have made, or saying things are inferior. My tone is sometimes a bit provocative, but I don't mean to upset you. I just enjoy the cut and thrust of forum debate, and try to liven it up a bit. I have no way of knowing at first whether you are a strong bouncy person, or one who may feel vulnerable and offended.

I do strongly feel that muddling these two together is wrong, and expecting people to travel about so you can advertise to them is just wrong, and being able to undercut other sellers in the list, without having to honour the price with a click as they do, is just plain wrong too.

Just ain't right. But I'm sorry if I you felt hurt.

Hi Toy,

Don't quite undersatand that.
You say "I dont look at it as misleading"
You then go on to explain just exactly how it IS misleading.

Yes, of course, these new products need something like a "tab"of their own.
But should creating this facilty have immediate priority over everything else, because the land barons feel they need it immediately ?

Surely most of their customers who really understand and want these products will know enough to find them in forum, where they could easily list plots and prices temporarily until a feature is added for them.

Assisted by a paid-for "message of the day" ?

Is everybody aware that at least two other sellers are (quite correctly) watching to see how this is handled, and will shortly be jumping into the list with possibly ridiculous prices if it isn't stopped ? 1$ land, anyone ? Misleading, or what ?

I dont look at it as misleading because the way land sales are set up now.

a very small percentage of players read the forums, so they dont know.

Lindar, I know enough not to get offended by comments, I bounce back quite quickly. i will admit I was highly miffed enough to take the time to quote and unquote your post. Usually this is something I don't do.

This whole confusion of people speaking "facts" when they really aren't sure about all the details is what causes all the mass flaming to begin, and precisely why I'm in the preperation and planning stages as we speak on a Land sales class. To help sort fact from fiction, truth from rumor. The class will include things from buying and tier fees on both private islands such as Anshe's and on the mainland, effectively comparing both options, and the complete how-to's in either case. As more private sim owners open up their land for sale, I will be studying in detail their rules as well, seeking permission from them to teach of it, and including that as well. I will also be looking for people who may like to help, although I am very strict about teaching only what I know, not what I've heard (even if from a helper)

Yes, you were mistaken about the group land. I've included a screen shot of my lot's info to show just how it works in that reguard, and I do thank you for your appologies. My group was created for those who rent my apartments and small shop space on my humble mainland lot where I used to have a house. I suppose one of these days I should invite my hubby as an officer, rather than a member, but he wouldn't know what to do with it anyway yet, I'm still teaching him the ins and outs of SL.


I agree that this is a private sim land. But I don't agree that it's not a sale. It would be severely misplaced in a for rent listing. And I believe THAT would be misleading. Those looking to buy land will not look in a for rent section for land to buy.

Not to confuse matters, but she also has lots for rent, that are marked clearly for rent. The lots for sale are ours to build on, keep, sell, whatever we choose. Why just today I banned someone from my lot who I found inside my locked house by the marvelous wonders of mousing and choosing sit here. I didn't need to contact anyone to do this, nor did I need the ok to do so. It's my land and I can do that. My next door neighbor has on any given day his or her land set to group access only, for his or her personal group. That is also something we can do without asking, or needing permission. It is our land...


What I am trying to do, is keep this discussion on target, after all, nothing gets accomplished when things get heated or our of hand. As land owners, we're not trying to force Linden Labs into anything. We just want to be recognized the same as any other land owner, with the choice to re-sell our land if we so choose to do so. If I sell my lot in Victoria, it's no different than the one I'm seling right now in Quat, except the fact that my buyer in Victoria, must agree to put up a Victorian house (it's a victorian zoned sim, which I love ) and pay tier to Anshe, instead of LL, not in addition to.. I can sell it for $1 and lose th emoney I put into it, or I can sell it for $100,000 and make a huge profit. I as owner, keep all of that money, or lose all of it. But since I'm in love with Victorian Architecture and now hubby and I can finally get online at the same time in SL (shared bandwith) I don't see me moving any time soon.


I would say with the people who are waiting in the ranks for this decision, as well as the many sims yet to come online this week, this decision is of fairly great importance. However, it's not one that should be made hastily.. They need to see all sides of the view, I agree. But those sides should not be splattered with name calling, hatred or general war. If they have to sort through all of that, all of our important points, on BOTH sides will surely be missed.


For anyone interrested, each Sim she has land for sale in has it's own page on her site.. here is the one for Victoria.. Please read it and let me know where it is misleading so that we (as a community) can work on getting it fixed.
http://anshechung.com/index.php?fct=GO_VICTORIA&BPUSER=e12dfc563b3aa4374dfed92b6f9e37ff


oh, and don't forget the picture..

Ok. Alysa.

I've been to Anshe.com, and read what I can find.
I accept that I misunderstood, you appear to be able to operate as a normal land-owner, without Anshe in your group except transiently.

Can I tell you what I dont find ?
What I consider the most important thing of all.

What can ANSHE do?
What exactly are her powers over you ?
What does ownership of the sim mean ?
Just as an example, why does she need to belong to your group briefly in order to deed land to it ? How does this work ?

What help do you need from her to sell?
What would happen if she disappeared?
Do you know the exact answers. Alysa ? If not, don't you think you should ?

It is only when we know this that we can assess exactly what we are taking on, and what independence we are giving up.

We all know SL has no proper manual, and I am not confident that this critical information can be found clearly written down anywhere.

Only when we know what she can do to you, can we understand what level of trust you are placing in her.

You see, this is not really about Anshe, is it?
like you, I have a high regard for, and level of trust in, this particular player.

But what about all the Anshe's that will try to follow where she leads?

We've got onto wider issues now, but I have to come back to my main point. We cannot allow this new way of holding land, by trusting another player with your assets, and accepting her rules and regulations, to become confused in peoples minds with the very different situation of just trusting LL and obeying the TOS.

Anshe seems to be adopting a pricing strategy very close to LL's so any listings leaking into "Land Sales" will not look too anomalous.

But if we let her do it before there is a separate category, we can't stop others, who may price things entirely differently. Half way between renting and buying, for instance, or with strange terms and termination options.

It would quickly get very, very difficult to compare deals, and the astute dealer may utilise this. Mixing chalk and cheese in the same list will lead to chaos.

I want these different deals to be advertised separately. I really can't see the desperate hurry, that they have to force their way in among the normal sales, with no clear distinction for the not-too-experienced. They have a heluva job understanding the ordinary variety, after all.

Your classes are a great idea, hope they go well. I'm just trying to reduce confusion for the same people you want to help, and trying to keep the playing field for ordinary land sales level.

I think the discussion is getting bogged down between what Anshe WOULD do and what Anshe COULD do.

Many people are debating based on Anshe's practices, which seem to me to be eminently fair, as far as possible. Personally, having been burned once with just the Linden's, I would NEVER put even L$ (much less USA$) into owning a piece of land that could be taken away by TWO groups of people, but if others want to operate that way, it's fine with me.

The problem isn't Anshe, it's what someone less scrupulous than Anshe could do. Anshe's practices seem to be honest and fair as much as possible, but the Linden's have spotted a possible way some griefer could scam real life money out of their customers, and are working to close the hole. Unfortunately, Anshe is sufferring because of their work, but it's work they have to do.

Everyone knows that online, any scam will sooner or later be used.

Defense of Anshe isn't necessary from everything I see, except to the point where we should encourage the Linden's to try to do whatever they can to help protect Anshe's investment while they work on this.

Ingot

(typing on da hubby's laptop cause my pc crashed and am working on it, so excuse please fingers used to typing on a regular keyboard and are having a hard time fitting to this tiny layout)


Exactly, I understand that this isn't entirely about her. Some have made it so tho, by not seeing the entire picture.

Anshe, as the pioneer in this new business strategy will of course be the primary one to explore all these details.. to find all the bugs.. and effectively be the one others learn from in what they plan to do. As such a large investor, she speaks her concerns much louder, and with much more urgency than soneone who bought a 512 first land lot who wants to sell it for a much higher price.

(Omg.. I just heard they changed Bugs Bunny! ewwwww the new one is horrible looking, not at all like the old one we grew up with, when we actually had to wait for saturday to see cartoons!)

Ok, before my train of thought is completely absorbed in getting my pc up and running again, lemme add one more thing.

Groups are probably one of the hardest parts of SL to understand... All the ifs, ands or buts that come along with the various tools and options. Group land can be even more difficult. As I understand it, and I'm not certain, so don't take it as the gospel, but as I understand it, in order to deed land you own to a group, you MUST be part of that group. You couldn't just deed your land to any group you randomly draw out of a hat. You need to have some kind of power in that group. As for Anshe, as soon as the transaction was over, she left my group herself, I didn't even need to go through that extra click to remove her name when it was done. It's her herself that comes to close the land sale, not one of her staff so any questions can be asked then.

As for the other sim owners, I have NO clue. But as I said, I plan on finding out.



=======================================================
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We need to come up with a solution for this problem... Give the lindens som eoptions, rather than just complaints and he said she saids..

I propose this.

In the drop down currently in place in the land for sale tab, we have several options of narrowing our search. I don't have it open at this time, but from memory there are the following options..
All, Auction, First Land, Sales...
Simply add another category to this list, Private Sim Lots.

Alll sales AND rentals on private sims can go into that last category.

Also.. Each land that is listed in that find land sales tab, shows all about the land...People NEED to take the time to fill out a description for your land for sale! Add a picture... THOSE are things that will sell your land... I for one, will not visit a property for sale that doesn't list a description and a picture. And LL?? We NEED longer description field.. The box to hold it is HUGE but there's not enough characters allowed to fill it.


The combination of the extended descriptions allowed, and the extra sorting category should be more than enough to distincly differentiate the two type of purchases. It would be completely wrong to call them rentals... It's just a different kind of sale. With different guarantees.

It would be wrong to call them sales, sorry. As long as the original owner is still the legaly binding owner and has the ability to do whatever the heck they want with the land at any time regardless of if they woudl or not, it is not a sale.

Exactly!

It's a real estate transaction and unless you hold the title with LL, you don't own the land. You can only hold the title with LL when you pay them directly. If you pay any other player - you don't hold title, your' leasing the land from the player who does own title. In real estate terms your have entered into a land lease.

My guess is Anshe knows this, some others choose to seek LL clarification and she choose to move ahead for business reasons, possible to continue to capture market share. Her assumptions are irrelevant - she's a smart business girl (as she refers to herself), she know what's she's doing and the risk involved.

Full disclosure is what we're talking about here not semantics. How any individual seller of these land-leases chooses to represent these 2nd party land transactions is up to them. And LL certainly understands that if players are not being provided full disclosure upfront - sooner or later that can come back to LL as a major problem.

_/_/

Exactly. It's a sale without title, thus without transfered ownership. In real estate terms, it's a land lease that you have bought, not title.

In this virtual real estate market (server space), LL holds title to the land with the person (LL's buyer, your seller/lessor) you bought the land from (you are the lessee).

hehe Merwin, i'm not sure which side you are for, but it sounds to me like you agree that those two types are botht he same kind of "sale" with Anshe holding the Title on one side, and LL holding the title on the other side?

So if I'm assuming I read this right, and I'm not sure if I have, you think both are essentially leases? not persay renting, but leasing...

You don't legally own anything if you buy land from Linden Lab. The only legal owner of Second Life grid is Linden Lab. Mmmm, yes. By your logic, it is misleading to talk about "land ownership" in Second Life in general, not just in reference to resident managed sub space.

What is actually being sold is non legally binding lease agreements. There is no fundamental difference between what Linden Lab do and what people like me do. While people may judge safety of landownership and thus value of land differently based on whom they deal with and based on how many layers exist in supply chain of the service, the fundamental nature of both deals is the same: if you call one "land ownership" then you also have to call the other "land ownership".

then a simple fix is Leased Land from LL and Sub-Leased land from a player