Is Linden Lab selling or renting land?

WORD Pham!

Tk´s for them.

As we put in real money (wow we do!) and can (have the possibility) do real money from SL and at the same time have a good time in a ”game” its easy to forget what´s play or real. (I don´t mention all emotional feelings... wow...)

I myself whan´t to have a great time in SL.. (I have promisse!) - but not loose money if i don´t need to do that.

But as Cyber (playing) are growing fast in the ”real” world we will prob see more and more of contracts between irl and cyber to. Money rules someone told me.-)))

So a day i will prob sign a contract about my SL Island irl... or I go into Cyber only, and the layers irl will get prob with my rent of my apartment irl... and what to do with my human body?

So Anshe and Linden maybe should think of an irl agreement ON signed papers... For Lindens because in the close future there will be more Anshes.. more questions like this...... Money are a strong motive in our world.. Sl or irl dosent matter... we all see that..


Someone that want to follow me do some serious shopping???

pet, aggree with you, wholeheartedly.

would like to emphasize that it is my opinion, that here again we see that problem of enforceable contracts where one of the contractual partners is an AV. i think Robin sees this alike ("In an ideal world we will have agreements and a means for conflict resolution". but we don't have that!

so its a matter of "trust", when I deal with someone in SL. which is nice - sometimes; risky at others. (and i need less trust towards LL because they are a business entitity in RL.)

i think in the long run, LL or others will find ways to deal with that problem on different levels. maybe there will be some provisions for more secure anonymous dealings. Paypal is quite a nice model for that. they even have some kind or (very imperfect) arbitration system. maybe the lindens will provide some way to at least put inworld-contracts on file in a tamper proof-way ... and there definitely will come a time when AVs will be able to (volontarily) reveal their identity to selected business partners and prove that they are, what they say they are. the latter is possible already of course, if a little clumsily. It maybe is just not that easy to get a court ruling involving virtual properties, avatars, etc.

these are not my ideas, of course, but have been presented by others, too, on different threads.

as long as we don't have any of this. LL in my humble opinion should support alternative models of developing land, parcelling, "selling", "renting" it - while making clear, that the residents involved enter a different kind of aggreement then with buying from LL. there are a lot of different ways to own (or use) property IRL. none is inherently better or worse than the other. just different. alternatives are good. and transparency (clearly showing the differences) is always a good thing

I think what's happened here is quite simple, and in no way a philosophical discussion of rent vs. sell. Anshe just invested a BIG, RL amount of cash. $13k is several months worth of salary for most SL residents.

She did that because she expected a fair return on investment. Her return depends on the publicity offered by LL for Land Sales. It is NOT a detail. It's one of the most important assets she is depending on.

Today, the lack of a central in-world medium for advertising, or a way to accomodate large spectator events, are the two things slowing the growth of the economy. It was a bit different with land sales, and Anshe just had that rug pulled from under her feet.

LL pulling private sales from the listing is putting in jeopardy her 13k investment. You bet she has the right to be er... annoyed. At the very least, LL should have measured the consequence of their decision and warned their biggest paying customer, or told her about the change before cashing her cheque. I cannot imagine they hadn't planned that decision already by then. If they have, just one thing to say:

This is NOT a professional way to run a business.

Or are they consciously trying to drive her off ?

Maybe she shouldn't have depended on using something in a fashion in which it was not really intended.

It seems to me that only Land that can be sold is sold. If your name doesn't appear as the owner after you have paid out your cash, you don't own it, even in the virtual sense that Linden Labs sell land.

What I can't understand at all is why people are "buying" land they don't own from Anshe and then paying her a tier, when they could rent land from Hiro Queso, as I do - no up front cost of the land, all the same benefits as "buying" from Anshe.

I have a radio, video changer, I am able to build on my land and people outside the renter group for my sim cannot. The only difference that I can see is that I haven't paid a lump sum to live here, and therefore when I want to leave, I just inform Hiro and go - or swap to land in a different sim if I want to stick with him.

People who have "bought" their land from Anshe, or "rented" it from Hiro Queso, don't have any more guarantees than anyone else renting a mall shop or whatever. Of course, it is a risk - but the risk is far less if it is just a month's rent you are losing out on, and not a huge sum spent in buying land.

Having had to tier down to owning no land, I can see multiple advantages of proper renting through Hiro, as I do. I don't have to find a lump sum, and I can terminate the agreement if I decide it no longer meets my requirements, I don't have to find someone else to "buy" my land from me. I am confused about how that works anyway - surely the buyer would have to be accepted by Anshe.Com as an AnsheTierPayer before you could sell??? Or is that not right? My feeling is that renting is much more flexible than buying land, whether through LL or Anshe.

I think that land deals should be transparent and obvious. Many new people are completely confused about the concepts surrounding land tier, buying in world or on the auctions, when just the Linden lab arrangements are involved - adding in this additional possibility of "buying" land that can't be sold and paying tier to Anshe is going to be very confusing for them.

I also think it should not be possible for big landowners to screw with the system and make it look as though they are selling land at a bargain rate, when in fact this isn't the case. That just gives them a huge unfair advantage over people who are selling their land at an honest rate, and brings them to the top of the searches.
Cali

Stephane, you are right. what has happened can probably be seen as a case of one party in a partnership changing the aggreement midgame without any form of re-negotiation. the Lindens might see this differently, though. and i don't know what exact aggreements do exist between anshe and LL. the TOS alone give LL a lot of freedom to do just as it pleases them.

i would say that it is maybe not perfect business practice anyway (even of its "legal", because anshe had no reason to expect this change when she ordered her new Sims. and this change HAS substantial influences on her business model. others might disaggree (Reitsuki obviously does). i think it is at least debateable.

what i think is more important in the long run is the question, if it makes sense to have businesses like anshe's who do more than just buying/selling land with a margin. and personally i think it makes sense. this business model adds value and meets an obviously existing demand.

Agreed, there are clearly problems.

Where is Hiro's land? Does he own a private sim? Is it mainland land?

The issue is that there is no easy way to advertise your properties and Anshe has made a significant investment based on current functionality.

Did she jump the gun a bit without consulting LL? Yes, and I wasn't going to repeat this particular mistake which is why I pestered the Lindens for a response to this particular issue.

However, where the answer is to change the rules, the answer *most definitely not* is to pull the rug out from underneat Anshe.

If they do, I have to admit, I will probably warn away anyone else who comes to SL and is thinking about making a big investment with the horror story of what happened to Anshe.

yes, definitely. took me some time to understand it a little and i would have to lie, if i would say i understand it completely now. the only thing which is even more fun to decode is the rule system for calculating dwell and bonuses

and i think that (transparency) was exactly what Robin promised:


but i don't think, that what anshe does is a way of tricking out her customers. she is one tough "business girl" but no liar. since 1.6 you get nearly all of what a "regular landowner" gets when buying from her. and at least to me she was absolutely clear, that it is a different kind of contract with a higher risk/additional amount of trust required. or, to quote from her website



ADDENDUM: you can rent from anshe, too. "buying" is just one more option - which most the customers seem to prefer

”Many new people are completely confused”

Arnt we all confused regularly in SL? - INFO about what we can do - how to do it and all other aspects are not easy to learn or find. But all in SL are very helpfull all the time so I am not scared to death.-DDDD

And how many reads manuals? Are there a COMPLETE manual? Yes we are in Cyber!!! Using a software.

And I still think most sometimes mixes irl with SL.. and back again.. Do we own a piece of a server? *lol*

For info I own my land via MY group. Where I am the only officer. And i pay a monthly fee to Anshe. Thats Ok with me as i did that agreement with her - and had no prob to trust her - why should I not do that???

There are sadly some personal fights out in SL - i have noticed that after ONLY 9 weeks in SL. Jealous people are no fun.

BUT Anshe must sort out her deal with Linden (Think she had but something happened on the ”way”). IRL. And the Linden guys MUST do it as this is the future of Cyber and SL. Real money investments.

ALL that does money from SL and take them out IRL must do that. I myself uses SL for fun so I dont have that kind of prob right now - as I only put IN money into SL...To much of themDDDD

Nobody wanted to shop with me???DDD I am joking - money are all gone - In SL))

OK I have been trying to avoid posting on this thread due to the lynching attitude of some residents and general paranoid ideas of a few that it's not possible to post with out having an ulterior motive. But I have to have my say.

I rent out land on the main grid, but more importantly (to this thread) I rent out plots on 3 private islands. Now after seeing the 'sale' of private island land, I of course wanted to know LL's position on this. Like others, I have had no answer to my questions on this matter. Now that should send alarm bells ringing shouldn't it? There is no way I would invest in many private island sims with a view to sell plots on them unless I knew for definate this was a direction LL wanted to go in.

Anshe, if you have invested in these sims without getting an answer to this question from LL, then I am sorry but I have very little sympathy. If however, LL have given you the green light and have since made a U turn, you have my total sympathy.

In either case, being able to list it in the find menu mixed in with LL main grid sales is at best confusing and in my opinion, completely wrong. Its clear from LL's latest response that it was not intended to be used this way, something that I thought was pretty obvious.

It is nice to see that almost two thirds of people agree that in relation to the terms "sale" or "rent" what Linden Lab offers and what ANSHECHUNG.COM offers is basically the same.

Probably Bob Bravo has come closest to the true nature of things: Both Linden Lab and ANSHECHUNG.COM are selling lease contracts, or to be more exact, lease promises. Because there is not even a real contract.

It has been mentioned that it would make one difference if dealing with one registered business entity or an anonymous avatar. Well, when dealing with ANSHECHUNG.COM you are not dealing with an anonymous avatar. This service is backed by Ailin "Anshe" Gräf and my husband Guntram "Guni" Gräf. Guni owns one business entity registered in Darmstadt, Germany as GIT-Consulting. We plan to incorporate one separate entity for Second Life services this summer, but possibly outside Germany. We are in excellent financial standing, are profitable and all our investments are financed by previous revenues.

Which Islands are you renting, Hiro?

I think the sublet - lessee distinction made above is most appropriate. There is a fundamental difference between a lease of land from LL and a sublet from Anshe: as a lessee I can count on LL to follow accepted business practices and continue the terms of my "lease" so far as they are able. As a sublessee to *anyone*, I am at their personal whim as to whether my sublet remains valid or active. This is an enormous difference and to not make a clear distinction when leasing vLand is a disservice to me.

It seems clear that LL found this to be the most expedient temporary fix for the issue but is certainly not being dismissive of Anshe's desires. Anshe, as a smart business girl, I would recommend not airing your personal grievances with LL for the court of "public" opinion. This is often called "biting the hand that feeds you" - which I expect sounds much better in German idiom.

Blaze I will send you an IM in world.

I think there has been something that one could diplomatically describe as "learning process" within LL. Without wanting to say anything negative about Lindens I think you can safely give me your sympathy. Nothing is black and nothing is white, but I can attest that the handling of this issue by the Lindens falls way short of the high standards LL usually manages to uphold.



I agree that there should be several categories to list sales. I would actually prefer "Ansheland" sales to be listed separately but equaly, so that people can browse those listings without the danger of confusing them with the mainland. There are people who would like to filter out "Ansheland" sales as much as there are people who would like to filter out land in unzoned sims on the mainland. Both groups would be more happy that way.

And I honestly don't think it matters how Linden Lab planned what some feature would be used for. It happens all the time that residents surprise the Lindens by new and creative uses of the tools Linden Lab provides. If something is wrong with the system they of course should fix it, but at the same time they need to provide fair and viable alternatives to people. I would wish Linden Lab would change their plans and work with people. Discussing such problem with stakeholders (including those who were not beta testers) before announcing major changes might be one good first step.

If I would not be telling this to myself every two seconds, then these forums would explode now in one nuclear desaster

But I still hope people at Linden Lab reflect on this situation and bring us one solution that is more in line with the many positive experiences that we also had with them in the past. My suggestion is to leave things as they are until they can implement two more categories for the land finder: 1) rentals 2) land sales in resident sims.

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I rent land out exactly as Hiro does, in fact I probably have lower prices and higher prims

In my rentals group, you can have a name on your lot, appear in FINDPLACES, get music and video settings, have land editing tools temporarily to terraform and landscape, have access to free vending and events space, and come and go as you please, getting a refund and paying a small refund fee or swapping to another parcel in the system. Unlike most or all rental systems, you can donate tier to the group and get the exact equivalent of land, an amazing deal. You can use your own prefab or one of ours or build up to two storeys if you don't block the view. These simple rules provide freedom to many people to avoid both high upfront purchase costs and the inflexibility of having to keep paying tier every month to LL, often at a higher level than you wish because there aren't enough gradations on their scale.

Yet I fully endorse what Anshe is doing even though her prices "undercut" my prices on my for-sale land and her scheme "undercuts" my rentals by making available entire controlled batches of sims (I prefer to think of it as merely healthy competition for us all).

Having lived in Anshe's communities, I know that after you make a purchase in that system, you can sell the land back to her at any time for a fixed price, which will usually involve a loss for you, which is a normal expectation given the services she provides. Or you can hunt for your own buyer and have them join the group and pick up the tier payments. This merely involves finding a buyer who agrees to the same TOS as you do in Ansheland, just as finding a buyer for your Linden land means finding a buyer willing to start paying tier payments to Linden labs. That means you can take Anshe's low prices and buy into them, and even re-rent (at least under the terms of the last community I lived in) or resell if you can find a buyer -- something not everyone is going to offer.

On Linden land, while you get to have your own name as owner on property you buy, if you don't pay the tier the next month, guess what? "Your" land is going to suddenly have Governor Linden as the owner! Governor Linden is NOT going to be reimbursing you for your purchase price if you don't keep meeting his tier payments, unlike Anshe! Ownership is entirely relative in this game!

What's at the heart of this controversy isn't "confusion" or "deliberate misleading" -- for Hiro to join in the slam of Anshe for being "confusing" when he also has islands for "sale" is merely to position himself as more competitive by burnishing his community reputation.

What's at the heart of this controvery are two issues:

1) The group tools weren't meant to handle land, or at least not handle land outside of hippie communes. They need to be changed. And those using them in good faith -- because they can, because groups do hold land -- need to be protected from their insidious flaws like rogue officer recall.

2) The in-game commercial advertising listings are extremely flawed and should be changed. Until they are, LL should permit the listing of island property sales on the same list. Those who hate the landowning sector because they think it harms their own business, or hate it because they think it commercializes the game, need to either retire to their own private sim or hunker down on their own property with a lot of bans on because the game is changing, and this is the wave of the future -- or death.

Actually, plenty of us don't want what Anshe is doing allowed for nothing more than the simple fact that we think it's a gross misuse of the provided tools as they stand now.

I have no vested interest one way or another... I own all the land I will ever want, and fully support the rampant commercialization of SL.

Except that Anshe is an institution by now in SL. She is like General Motors. She has such large land holdings and other businesses that she has a very well-established presence in the game. Anshe is not going to be disappearing tomorrow unlike Joe Blow who just buys an island and then can't keep using Mom's credit card the next month.

Actually, unlike LL, I have found Anshe not to be as contradictory or misleading in her business practices. She generally does what she says she is going to do, and if there is some misunderstanding, she tries to rectify it -- you get answers when you write to [email]support@anshechung.com[/email] unlike the non-answers you get from [email]support@lindenlabs.com[/email] Anshe has more to do to meet the customer service challenge, but by and large, she makes herself incredibly available for someone living on a different time zone than manh of her customers. And because LL is finding it difficult to remain consistent and "please all players" or whatever their issues are, they should begin to let others come in and pick up the responsibility of being consistent and providing the gradation of services -- freedom from expensive up-front land purchases, flexibility as to tier levels, etc. -- that they cannot or will not provide.

And Anshe is fine with publicly criticizing a major renege on a pledge in this issue because it has ramifications for us all. It didn't trouble me the least to have Anshe's listings or anybody else's listings. Indeed, I'd advocate having land set to oneself for $0 sale (because there is no purchase price) be available for rentals to show up on the list.

The object here is to have a variety of living arrangements, whether sales, rentals, rent-to-buy, condiminiums, whatever, to show up on an in-game list. This is the kind of infrastructure that LL needs to supply.

Linden Labs needs to bite the bullet. Either they are going to have those million subscribers Philip talks about by accepting the kind of help in the land sales and rentals business that they were willing to accept in the scripting and content business (with the same kinds of protections!!!) or they are going to die.

It's just that simple. LL must make it safer for people to invest in the land business, and work in it, without the horrible kinds of risks that come from LL's own ambivalence on this issue. They must decide whether they are going to cave to a minority of players with socialist/communist convictions or hatred of land commerce for various other aesthetic/artistic reasons, or they will not grow behind a tiny wiki for tekkies.

If Linden land sells land on the auction -- rather than just giving it away endlessly to whoever can grab the most of it -- then they must accept the consequences of that sale -- which is that customers are going to resell land, rent land, or make available land through a variety of creative arrangements, and they must stop hindering them in that effort, so as not to devalue the very land they sell.

Reitsuku, I"m actually doubting that there is any "plenty of us," beyond the FIC types with their tier-free 4096s, subsidized sims that used to have tax holidays, endless grants and income from postrates, etc. etc.

If a group can hold land, and if land set to sale on a private island can show up on the sales list, then it is not a "misuse" of the tools. It is a use of the tools LOL.

If the tools then are tweaked, that's Linden Labs caving to pressure from a few people in the minority like yourself. That's a terrible precedent for them to be setting.

That means they will not be able to grow the game or even keep it alive at its current level, and the "lab experiment" will have to end sooner rather than later because they will be unable to find someone to pay for it.

Well, I have to say that I would be very leery about leasing land in SL. Anything can happen that could cause you to lose your investment. That being said, I can also see what could be attractive about it. Zoning controls, rules, and a true method to control the 13 year olds, trapped in adult bodies, who find delight in annoying others.

I think that these land sales should be listed along side every other land sale. The rules and conditions should be prominently posted and the buyers can decide if that's what they want to buy.

I wonder what the coding implications are of these kinds of options, and I'm wondering if there will just physically be enough tabs on the UI.

That's why I suggested that LL have "classifieds" as a section similar to the forums, where the filters inside could be things like "rentals" or "clothing" or "animations" whatever. That way land sales, which includes listings of Linden's auction as well as sales by players -- a very huge list now that loads so slowly for some people they don't even want to use it -- are in a separate list.

And that's why they should leave things as they are -- that is, leave private island land sales listed in the list.

No one should be spending $13,000 on this world and get such shabby treatment. It is a terrible precedent.

You're free to doubt.

I don't have a lifer account. I pay monthly, thanks. I've never rat-mongered, either. Never got grants from anyone. Never sold money on GOM. Never done pretty much anything you accuse -with sneers and veiled jabs- people of doing. I'm a little cherubic angel by your standards.

Don't assume.




Yes, misuse is still a use. Congradulations. You recognised that "use" is the root morpheme of "misuse". Rather like using a keyboard to bludgeon someone to death is still a "use" of a keyboard, even if it a misuse.



Minority. I don't think that word means what you think it means. For one person to be saying that.



You and I obviously see the future ramifications of this far differently. I doubt there is any hope we could ever agree. I see allowing the find tools to be made useless out of misuse to ultimatly be far more harmful to SL.

During the Town Meeting, Phillip said he thoguht the answer to the "government" issues were private sims and land rentals. I think he was specifically referring to "zoning" -- which is what Anshe's sims are all about.

Linden Labs *wants* Ansheland type arrangements.

Anshe vs. Linden is a silly contrast. Anshe's sims are Linden sims. Same equipment, same client, same login queue, same bugs, same upgrade path. If Linden goes belly-up, Ansheland goes bye bye too.

I think Ansheland type arrangements should be called "privately managed sims". Instead of "rent" vs. "buy", the distinction is whether the sim is "mainland" or "privately managed".

I also think Linden should enhance the billing system for privately managed sims. Having to pay Anshe separately from Linden is a real impediment for a lot of people. It would be much better if residents could pay Linden and have Linden deduct payments by individuals from the sim owner, paying out when income exceeds payments. I think this could be done in a way that residents fully understood, and indeed controlled, the way their money was allocated. For example, it could work something like group tier donations work. If you allocate tier to a private owner, that owner gets US$ on account. (One issue is what happens when a resident fails to pay their bill, or de-allocates their tier before selling the land.)

Because private management is Linden's answer to the calls for zoning (i.e., no spinning spewing cubes of death in your back yard), they had better come up with the administrative tools and proper characterizations so that people can understand what the deal is without a PhD in SL.

Buster

I think a better resolution would be to encorporate "renting" plots of land into the user interface of SL. There should be a "Land Sales" and a "Land for Rent" tab available for people to use when searching for Land to utilize. To be listed in either tab, you would be required to pay a small fee (say L$10 to avoid abuse). I'm not exactly sure how it should be setup, but breaking them into two tabs with "Land for Rent" available for non-mainland and uniquely rented land would be the best option.

As it stands right now, if you own a private estate, you are able to abuse the "Land Sales" tab and have an advantage over other "renters" on the mainland or over others that have a rental scheme that differs from renting an entire plot of land (i.e. apartment buildings that rent vertical space over the same plot). You get free advertisement, new users are confused, and the whole thing is kinda a mess.

As for the original question, LL is selling land, Anshe is renting land.

Why?

When you buy land from Linden Lab, there are certain rights you have over the land (barring the demise of the entire SL service). As long as you pay your monthly fees to maintain the server(s) the land utilizes, you are guaranteed to do whatever you want with the land according to the TOS and Community Standards. You have rights.

When you "buy" or rent land from anyone else (i.e. Anshe, Prokofy, Me, or any other player), you have NO RIGHTS. The land owner has all of the rights, you have NONE. If the land owner doesn't like you, leaves the game, etc, you are SCREWED. No appeal, no enforcement, nothing. This isn't to say I don't trust Anshe, Prokofy, or others. It's just that it'snot the same thing as buying land from LL.