Possible solution to the Sim sales issue.

Before I start, let me say this. This is a proposal, and I would appreciate the proposal being discussed, voted on, etc. Discussion of the proposal does NOT include bashing each other because we have different beliefs or preferences. Please give every member the freedom to make their own informed decisions about where to live. Thank you...

Ok, leading out of the 8 page thread about buying or renting land, I didn't want this to get buried. If you've read through all of that super, if not I will try to cover the situation briefly.

Recenlty private sim owners were told that the land for sale on their sims could not be included in the find land sales feature of SL. Much discussion and debate has ensued standing up for both sides. You can read through it if you like.

We need o move beyond that phase of the debate now, and propose solutions...Give the lindens some options, rather than just complaints and he said she saids.. something to work with to make things easier for them.

I propose this.

In the drop down currently in place in the land for sale tab, we have several options of narrowing our search. I don't have it open at this time, but from memory there are the following options..
All, Auction, First Land, Sales...
Simply add another category to this list, Private Sim Lots.

Alll sales AND rentals on private sims can go into that last category.

Also.. Each land that is listed in that find land sales tab, shows all about the land...People NEED to take the time to fill out a description for your land for sale! Add a picture... THOSE are things that will sell your land... I for one, will not visit a property for sale that doesn't list a description and a picture. And LL?? We NEED longer description field.. The box to hold it is HUGE but there's not enough characters allowed to fill it.


The combination of the extended descriptions allowed, and the extra sorting category should be more than enough to distincly differentiate the two type of purchases. It would be completely wrong to call them rentals... It's just a different kind of sale. With different guarantees.

The proposal still doesnt differentiate between land being sold (LL leased) and sub-leased land, people would have to look at each individual lot listed to find out.
I feel a tab for the sub-lease is more clear.

Thank you for your input Toy

I agree with Toy. There should be a completely separate tab or section of the land sale tab, as this is a sublease. I know the war of semantics that has been waged in the other thread . Ultimately, players who take advantage of subletting private island sim land have an additional layer of risk. They also have an additional layer of reward, depending on the private island.

It is that additional layer of risk, which no matter how much it is explained away, does exist and needs to be clearly stated. The odds are significantly higher of a player absconding with the funds with no recourse by the private island land owners than they are for Linden Lab to close shop and screw us all. Many people have experienced a mini-version of this in the rental market - when some crap mall has suddenly closed shop and taken all the rent with it, with no recourse. Personally, I would like to see changes made to the TOS to handle these types of contracts, so that the purchase of private island sim land does become binding, as I do think there is great potential in them since LL has refused to address the very problems that the private island owners are trying to fix themselves (namely unfair resource usage in a sim).

Improvements to the land tab are necessary. Perhaps a land tab that has options for mainland sim land, private sim land, and rentals as sub-tabs. As someone else pointed out, just because people can now sell this land does not mean these changes are a development priority over all other improvements that need to be made.

It's good that this is provoking discussion, and I totally agree it would be great to be able to have a tab where you could search for plots to rent.

However, it might be worth asking LL to change their policy on being able to sell plots of private island sims before you ask for a method for searching for them.

I agree with this

That's cool, but what's the difference between sub leasing and rental? Is sub leasing a more permanent rental? I consider all my tenants to have a permanent agreement, well as permanent as they choose it to be anyway.

A filter isn't enough, agreed. There needs to be a hard line between sales, conditional sales and rentals. A seperate tab would be a better approach.

Code that makes rentals BINDING on the owner as well as the renter would be ideal, and if there were a mechanism to set conditions on the lease that would be enforced by the game engine, that would be even better. Obviously you can't enforce "must be a Victorian build" through game physics, but you could set vertical limits to construction, make certain infrastructure elements non-returnable (sidewalks, shrubbery, etc.), and limit scripts.

It wouldn't solve all problems, but it would make rentals and conditional sales a more viable option.

But the tab at least should be in place before removing the non-sales from the sale list.

Hiro, I made it this way because in reality even land we buy from LL is a lease, rented land would also fall under a sub-lease.
There was to much clouding of the discussion about the buying land and I simply changed the wording from Buy/Rent to Lease/Sub-Lease

Hehe well then I am in complete agreement with you. May I add, what an excellent choice of words

I propose that Linden Lab (LL) change nothing at this time.

I propose that LL first revise the TOS to disclose in writing the operation and definitions all aspects of land transactions in SL, clarify their legal and fiduciary responsibilities regarding all player purchases from LL effected in SL.

I propose that the drop down now in place via. the land for sale tab be left exactly as is, and that no additional category for Private Sim sales be set up in the LL selling tools.

When/if LL decides it is in their best business interest to make changes then I propose they revise and publish the TOS prior to implementing a new way of doing business.

(As Alysa said, there have been 8+ pages of discussion with lots and lots of confusion).

Rational:
Players have invested time and money in SL for many reasons, including Private Sims - most of which have not been purchased for subdividing and re-sale. A few players are buying private sims to make US$ profits, most are not. For LL to change how land for sale, including Private Sims, is sold-listed-categorized-marketed because a small group of Private Sim customer/owner-players who are re-leasing their private sims and are not happy with LL is, for LL to change without a prior TOS revision would be very poor management and not in the best interest of the SL player base.

_/_/

xposted to Is Linden Lab Selling or Renting Land?

All of these thoughts and opinions go to show that it's not an easy decision to make.. that's why we need to find a solution to work for everyone...

Keep talking out solutions, I really feel this will help

Merwan

Your proposal to change nothing could have two entirely different alternate meanings.
I don't know which it is.

If private sim owners are currently being allowed to advertise their various offerings in amongst normal land sales, then I totally oppose "no change"

If they are currently being prevented from doing this, then "no change" is exactly what I want.
Whilst a calm decision is made on how to bring them into the system, and what priority to give this new feature.

Anshe tells me that LL has made a "conscious decision" to allow this to continue
( see /130/99/44468/1.html#post471820, sixth posting down).
I have seen the opposite being claimed elsewhere.

Confusing, isn't it.

I was agreeing with the idea of listing mainland Lindden land on a completely separate tab from private sim land. I don't have any more comments on what it should be called.

There is an issue that if a private sim owner fails to pay their tier, or breaks rules and gets banned-for-life, or finds another way to screw up, that the renters/leasers/sub-owners/whatever would be hurt. They would blame Linden for letting that happen to them.

Aside from what you call it, apart from how you pay for it, who gets spattered when the shit hits the fan? Linden must consider this, and they have a responsibility to protect the interests of their customers.

(Robin Linden acknowledged this as a major issue that they are grappling with.)

Buster

I have an idea..

How about replacing the land sales tab with land leasing by players, and shunting off LL land sales to somewhere less obvious.

Sounds a little revolutionary, but it has some pretty exciting possibilities.

While it's important to come up with proposals for the Lindens to have something to chew on, I can't envision that they are going to be doing too much changing of the listings.

We might expect that they'll have better filters, that is, you'll be able to use search terms more effectively for things like "rentals" or "lease". Of course, there's nothing to stop you now from going into FINDPLACES instead of LAND FOR SALE and typing in the word "rentals" or "vendor" -- you will find them a lot of my main listings for example because I've checked off the box with the $30 fee for being in FINDPLACES.

BTW, a lot of people don't realize how you make land show up for sale (I know I struggled with this the first time):

-- to be in the alphabetized list, your description has to say "SIM NAME" first. It can't say "MY CHILL PAD" or that's the name it shows up in. Or you can have the term WATERFRONT or MATURE be first but whatever you type first in "name" on "about land" whch you get by right-clicking on your land will be what goes in the search list.

-- You don't have to pay $30 or check off the box to be in the FINDPLACES to have the picture of your land and its description show up in the for sale list. Merely by clicking off the for sale box on your land menu, it will show up. Having a picture is vital to helping sell it.

I think it is in this description box that an honourable landlord will try to put the essence of his offering. He will put 'STAKE, RENT, OR RENT-TO-BUY" as I have or 'RENT" OR "LEASE" or "BUY LONG-TERM LEASE' or whatever makes sense to convey what it is.

This box, which is empty until you fill it, is the best protection against fraud, if landowners are willing to fill it out honestly. It takes no work from the Lindens, and subtracts nothing from them, if they fill it out honestly.

In the case of anshechung.com, this is going to mean filling in a lot more text than the busy business girl usually finds time to put in, in dealing with lots of lots. But a line of text should go in that says "PURCHASE LAND UNDER LONG=TERM LEASE WITH SPECIAL TERMS IM ANSHE CHUNG FOR DETAILS".

There is an additional issue as well when dealing with private island land - privacy. In order to pay tier to a private island sim owner, unless you are paying in L$, you have to give up some level of privacy which may not be suitable for all players. Having seen some of the abuse that can go on with Paypal by a controlling person, I would be very loathe to ever give out my Paypal info to someone I did not know very well and trust. Again, this becomes more important as you have more and more people selling private island sim land - reputation alone is not enough protection.

I think any solution should include the following:

o Allow for the advertising of land for sale on world map and in land finder, regardless if it is on the mainland or other area of Second Life

o Must not mix land sales in other regions with rentals. What you can e.g. buy in "Ansheland" is definitely not the same thing as rental!

o Should not advertise the selling of -however you call that thing- in "Lindenland" as "land sale" while describing -how ever you call that similar thing- in other regions as mere "lease".

Different filters or tab for different land sales is certainly one good idea. Explanations and information in land finder and when people click BUY might be as well. This could be:

- Land Sales (Linden leases)
- Land Sales (sub-leases)
- Land Rentals
- First Land
- etc.
...

Or it could be:

- Land Leases for sale
- Land Sub-Leases for sale
- Land Rentals
- First Land
- etc.
...

We should also consider that land tier in "Ansheland" is not tied to any specific piece of land. Residents can swap and trade and buy and sell as they want. There are residents with one land tier but plots in several sims. Considering that, land ownership there is not more "lease" and not less "ownership" than land ownership on mainland. This means if the term "lease" is not good enough for what you buy on mainland then it is also not good enough for what you buy from people in "Ansheland".

Indeed. Much as there is one privacy issue when you reveal information such as your IP address with registering and posting on fansites.

Fortunately, revealing information via PayPal is transparent and people also in turn receive the same details about the person they reveal this information to. The information people reveal by browsing websites unfortunately is not transparent to the average user and often they have no clue who will be going to read the visitor logs. And I have not even started talking about cute little programs that could start spy on their computer files, log everything they type on their keyboard or download their e-mails - if they have only made one little mistake with their browser settings...

I think we can agree that people better be careful whom they trust

Not the same thing, and not true. Especially if you spoof your IP or use a proxy.



Uh... so what? You already proved you're happy to freely link your avatar with your real life details. That doesnt mean to say that everyone else wants to do the same. It would most definitely be a deciding factor as to whether I did business that required external payment to people in SL. I don't see how you can justify it with 'oh, well you know my details, so it's ok that I know yours.'.



I just don't see how this is anything like the same thing. If I browse the web, sure, it might tell them my IP and where abouts I am. It doesn't give them my rl name to google and go use to whatever end they please. It sounds like your argument is 'oh well you might as well give up your info, you've probably got a keylogger or trojan anyway'.



Precisely. Which is why I and many many other people have no intention of ever doing any kind of business transaction with a member of SL that requires an external arrangement for payment that gives up that much privacy.

The best thing LL could do would be to build renting into the system, something that has been promised since 1.0, heck, I thought it would be in 1.1!

amen!. It would be cool is you could tick a little box in the 'about land' menu to list for rent.

Some more thoughts:

1. New "Find Land" tabs for Rentals, Leases

I'm suggesting there be separate tabs for pure weekly rentals and private island leases because the "Price" column is not comparable.

2. Rental and Lease functionality in the "About Land" tab

Bring an end to the sacred Rent-O-Matics and make Rent part of the system. This would be a huge re-write for the developers at Linden Labs so be prepared for lots of releases if/when it happens. Besides the obvious benefits, building this functionality in SL causes LL to "buy-in" to the concept and would make a future rule change less likely.

3. Disclaimer pop-up

It makes sense that a popup similar to the "Deed Land to Group" confirmation appears on all land transactions describing the nature of what the resident is about to do. We confirm land tier costs for sales and we prompt to confirm land deeding so it's fair that we provide consumers with rental, sale and lease descriptions. After all, we are asking to make the entire land system more complicated.

4. Wiki info

Regardless of what is decided, the Help Wiki should be updated with any new land terminology that has developed.

Thanks Lehane for the opportunity to clarify.

I am not in favor of allowing private sim owners, or anyone else, to advertise amongst land sales. If that is happening, I urge LL to prevent that immediately.

------- My Propoal at Msg. #11 ------------

LL Revise TOS Prior To Changing

I propose that Linden Lab (LL) change nothing at this time.

I propose that LL first revise the TOS to disclose in writing the operation and definitions all aspects of land transactions in SL, clarify their legal and fiduciary responsibilities regarding all player purchases from LL effected in SL.

I propose that the drop down now in place via. the land for sale tab be left exactly as is, and that no additional category for Private Sim sales be set up in the LL selling tools.

When/if LL decides it is in their best business interest to make changes then I propose they revise and publish the TOS prior to implementing a new way of doing business.

(As Alysa said, there have been 8+ pages of discussion with lots and lots of confusion).

Rational:
Players have invested time and money in SL for many reasons, including Private Sims - most of which have not been purchased for subdividing and re-sale. A few players are buying private sims to make US$ profits, most are not. For LL to change how land for sale, including Private Sims, is sold-listed-categorized-marketed because a small group of Private Sim customer/owner-players who are re-leasing their private sims and are not happy with LL is, for LL to change without a prior TOS revision would be very poor management and not in the best interest of the SL player base.
---
_/_/

I would point out, Anshe, that one difference between the IP address on the fan site scenario, and the Paypal scenario, is that a player doing business with Paypal has the ability to file a complaint, legitimate or not, that can cause a Paypal account to be frozen. As often, they are attached to RL bank accounts, the implications of someone having your Paypal information is far more serious than someone revealing their IP address. This is something that both parties have to consider, and something users may not be aware of.

Your warnings about fan sites are a smokescreen, Anshe, as you yourself run a public web site, meant to distract from the inherent risks of doing business through Paypal. While a good piece of anti-spyware software goes a long way toward protecting users online, there is not much you can do with Paypal to protect yourself. My point in this is that privacy of financial (and personal information) is a concern, and must be considered in doing business, be it Paypal or credit card information. The same concerns apply to GOM and IGE as well, it is not something unique to players selling land, it is just a part of it that consumers need to be aware of.