A concrete proposal for welcoming "rent/buy" in private sims

I have a concrete proposal for solving the semantic dilemma which is developing.

The two ways of obtaining land (Linden/PrivateDeal) are surely either

"sales" and "leases"
or
"leases" and "sub-leases".

I propose that since we have all called the first type "sales" from the beginning, this is too late to be changed. The new types of private deals should therefore be called "leases".

They should be advertised as such, in their own separate categories within "Land Sales", which should be renamed to "Land Offerings" . The list view with different categories all pooled together should be abolished, to avoid confusion. You choose which you want to look at. Auction, For Sale, First land, Lease. Remove "All". You can't compare chalk with cheese.

Until the necessary development effort to modify "Land Sales" can be assigned a "new feature priority" (based on how many people care about it) those wishing to trade in leases should be locked out of "Land sales" by LL disabling what might be considered an exploit, and should make their own advertising arrangements. To mix them in (as now possible) is potentially misleading.

Tempers are getting frayed.

It is being claimed that LL made a clear and unambiguous promise to a big land owner.
A promise that she would have unbroken access to the "Land Sales" list for her advertising of "leases" in her private sims.

If this is the case, then LL should make these changes top priority, reducing her loss of access to the shortest possible time. The rest of us can just grind our teeth at the resulting delay to features we want more.

If no such clear promise was made, the lease-advertising feature should wait its turn. A voting proposition might advise LL on our enthusiasm, but the decision on priority would of course be theirs, in the light of all the circumstances.

Unless she says it herself (or a LL employee), none of us know what was said. Her original post simply stated "I bought under the impression", it doesnt say "I was promised when I bought". To me it was more of her assuming the current toolset would be in place for a lengthy period of time. And then when we heard it was going away, all the discussions cropped up. So who is claiming this? Sounds like pure drama without comments directly from those involved.

Thanks for the suggestion, Lindar. Listing those leases in a separate category under 'Land Offerings' is a realistic proposal. I have no objection to Anshe's 'for sale' offerings being listed that way, but I have heard only a few arguments pro and con. If anyone else has strong arguments to make, I'd like to hear them.

Feren.. have you read the 9 almost 10 page thread about it?... lots of opinions voiced there, both pro and con..


Lindar, I know there are lots of major priorities for LL to be working on at the moment, but I also think the fact that there are more than 10 sims scheduled to online this week makes this situation a bit higher in the list than if there weren't any scheduled. I think LL is waiting to bring those online until this decision as to how they can be handled is made.

I say more than 10, becuase of I know of 10, and assume the possibility of 1 or more, more..

whether we'd like to think it's a priority or not, this fact alone sort of makes it one....

I have received an IM from Anshe asking me to edit one of my posts to remove the word "exploit". I'm not sure which one, as my posts above don't refer to her, and are tentative about using the word.

I am sure she will not mind my posting her message here, as it puts her point of view re any "exploit" and helps just a little to clarify a very confused situation.

Here goes:

(edited)

There is a bit of language confusion here as , at least to me, "using an exploit" is nothing to do with exploiting people. It exploits the software, or rather an unintended feature of same. I used the "phantom avatar exploit" for months when flying, to avoid getting trapped in rezzing buildings. Until it was removed by LL.

Let me be absolutely clear. I have never meant to imply in any of my relevant postings, that Anshe has been intentionally trying to exploit anyone, or to deliberately mislead anyone.

She wanted to advertise her wares. LL provided a method (maybe at first unwittingly). Anshe used it. Others hesitated, and sought reassurance on forum, but Anshe went straight ahead and took a risk. To the brave goes the reward.

My point is that the advertising of other-than-normal sales in "Land Sales" is ITSELF misleading, even with careful extra descriptions (often ignored). Less scrupulous and trustworthy people than Anshe could easily join in, and create confusion.

Anshe I trust, others I don't. The system needs to be changed.

On another issue, I have seen another authoritative voice state that the Lindens have now banned "non-standard sales" from the "Land sales" listing.

Who is right ? We need a LINDEN to provide some clarity here.

Really, Alysa, more than 10?
The normal number I think is 6 to 7.
This is very worrying to anyone owning land and concerned about over-supply depressing the price.

Are many of these private sims, with land to be "sold" under the new lease-like arrangements, I wonder?

If these leases do get accepted by buyers on almost equal terms with the old "sales", then the rate at which such sims are created will need to come under Linden control, for the good of all.

Could I decide to invest US$20K, and bring 20 more sims onto the grid next week, now competing for buyers with all the maingrid land.

It would be catastrophic.

rest easy just because they come online don't mean they are all being sold, nor will be ready to be sold in any near future..

Based on the ones I know of, adding in the law of averages, and the current level of apprehension about such issues... It seems common sense that they will be slowly introduced over the next few weeks to even a month IF they in fact aregoing up for sale at all... Many people are waiting on this decision from LL.. of that you can be sure.. and LL seems to be waiting for a decision...

However, like all my comments, I don't work for LL or have access to the info they do, nor do I give any guarantees, just try to shed some light on different aspects, provoking thought and rational discussion..

I found the other "exploit" post. Probably the one Anshe disliked. I've edited it to remove any hint of this implication. I've never thought she was doing anything purposely bad. Just using a feature in a way I thought would cause confusion.

Gee !
I just found this on the topic
/invalid_link.html

Philip, no less, seems to be telling poor old Blaze (mostly by saying nowt), that the "Land Sales" issue is no issue, as though they are just going to let us all mill about in confusion.

Fits in with what Anshe said.

Poor old Blaze. He just can't get a straight answer can he ? Honour him for keep trying.

Blaze ? Whats the latest ?

Why all this vehemence and "lock-outs" and incitements against "the landowning class"?

Sure, it's a good idea to have "leases" instead of "sales" or "rentals" but for many people, "lease" is just the Canadian or British version of the American "rent" -- it's just a usage issue in different brands of the English language, although in the US "lease" can have the connoation of a rental agreement over a period of time as well as "rental".

Have you made that field trip in-world yet, Lindar? Did you right-click on the land after following the vector from the list and seeing if you got horribly misled and exploited? Did you talk to the people who have already walked through this deal?

I still don't get what peas this takes out of your pot. Are you like blaze, contemplating this as a business deal, but wanting airtight guarantees that the community won't hate you for "exploits" and Lindens won't rap your knuckles?

What exists in "Ansheland" could be described as "sub-lease" if what exists in Linden sims would be described as "lease".

But as long as the other is called "land sale" then what you find in "Ansheland" is "land sale" too and not "lease".

Brillliantly state, and succinct, too, Anshe. That ought to put paid to this entire discussion.
And I'm so glad you raised the issue of people who capture information on fan sites to control others, too, since they are so huffy about others swiping at privacy but they themselves think nothing of not only pubishing false statements but even statements impinging on people's privacy.

This issue won't be put to rest with your brilliant rejoinder, however, because it was never really about what it was. The arguments were raised out of malice toward landowners, and by the technical class's relentless desire to put this class out of business.

Nope. IMO (and others) its simply a case of consumer information, awareness and the need to separate these type land deals from 'normal' sales. I know you thrive on "us vs them" drama but drama is something people build up around the real issues/needs.

These types of sales/leases/rentals (insert your favorite term) ARE different than regular land sales. They may have 90% of the same characteristics of regular land sales but they ARE different and should be treated differently. Are they better than normal rentals? Most would argue they are. You certainly have more rights and features. Are they better than normal sales? Most would argue they are NOT because another player is the real owner (well LL is but thats another story) and they can take your land away and there is nothing you can do. Sure Anshe wont take your land back for no reason nor most of the major players. And probably there has been no talked about case of this happening (to my knowledge), but LL and I feel that the consumer should know about this 'risk'. And I know what you are going to say: "Anshe and others explain the system to customers beforehand to make sure they understand". Thats great and Im glad they do! And yeah a customer cant just run out there and click BUY LAND and buy something that they dont own or know what they are getting. But LL and others feel its LL's job to help inform the consumer of what they are getting into reguardless of how well a job Anshe and others do. These types of lease/sales (you pick the term) are a good alternative to renting and buying and do add value. This isnt about 'putting' land barons down nor techies vs LBs, its about LL doing their job of making sure we are informed and the GUI isnt misleading.

Excellent!

I appreciate your input and that of some other contributors. You fullfil one important role within community.

Prokofy I believe has been refering to one certain group of very active individuals who, since many months, lobby, sometimes openly, often behind the scenes against land developers, or more specifically, land developers who have joined Second Life late and are not part of their beta-buddy-circle. The topics they are "concerned" about and call Lindens by phone or post on the forums shift, but the target remains the same. It can happen that one day one of their own beta buddies do something and receives their highest praise. Then one month later one of their chosen targets do the same and they pull it through the mud.

These people hurt things badly, including the efforts of those who are genuinely concerned about the topic at hand and don't just abuse the issue as one weapon against those they envy, dislike or consider competition for themselves or their friends.

Anyway, there is many people who brought up valid issues and I believe on most we actually agree:

o It is helpful to list private island land sales, rentals and normal land sales in three different categories instead of mixing them

o It is helpful to display information messages before people buy land in private island sims or in Linden zoned sims like Boardman, to make sure people know what they buy

o It would be good idea to add additional information to the wiki and other documentation

I understand that and trust me its hard to miss if I read any of Proks posts. But whether this is true or not does not discount the need for LL to do their job on this subject.

I agree.

I think that's self-evident. If the listed owner of the land doesn't change, the land has not been sold, and it shouldn't be listed under Sales. It's clearly an exploit, even if the intent in taking advantage of it is not exploitative.

The fact that there's no place else to list these properties requires immediate remedy. At a minimum, there should be a seperate place to list rentals and sales that aren't really sales ("lease" for want of a better term). Ideally, there should be a system where rentals/leases are secured and cannot be reposessed from renters by unscrupulous landlords. That may be longer term, but will ultimately be necessary to protect consumers from predators.

I wish you would stop using this terminology. It's either not a sale, in that case stop calling it one, or it is a sale, in which case you are doing something that LL expressly state you are not to do each time you order an island. Damn this is frustrating, I need a break from the forums.

It's really quite simple. If you think your buying land and you click about land and its not in your name your renting it.

Just wanted to remind everyone not to post IM chat logs in the SL Forums.

Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva
The arguments were raised out of malice toward landowners, and by the technical class's relentless desire to put this class out of business.

Nope. IMO (and others) its simply a case of consumer information, awareness and the need to separate these type land deals from 'normal' sales. I know you thrive on "us vs them" drama but drama is something people build up around the real issues/needs.

Nope to you back again. You just may not be aware that a lot of this tempest was artificially whipped up by the few Anshe is referring to who were gunning for her and others because they just generally hate -- and want to eliminate -- this class. The land listing issue was not at all originating in any good-faith desire to help stop fraud of consumers -- you're attributing good will when there was none. They were able to artifically whip up sentiment in the forums to this effect, of course, but the *real* reason they were annoyed by this was that a) *their own* businesses of clothing, animations, vehicles, etc. are not inside the game in a pull-down list like land, and they resent this tremendously, are terribly jealous of it, and can't be patient and wait for Linden changes, they have to wrangle about it now; b) those that wanted to venture into this area wanted iron-clad agreements from the Lindens, and then if they didn't get them, were dogs in the manger and didn't want Anshe getting a head start because she hadn't insisted on the same kind of ironclad pledge.

NOW do you see what this is about? It's not about all this altruism you think it is, believe me.




We all know that. And the first way that becomes evident is that when you see them in the list, even if you never read the forums and realized they are different, when you fly out there, they won't buy with a right-click. They prompte you to get in touch with the owner for an explanation. We do not *yet* have a single case of a newbie or oldbie crying "fowl" because they went through this experience.

Yet everyone cites this *putative* fraud as if it took place. We are right to guard against it, but not right to hype it.



Let me tell you something. I was talking to a woman today who was looking at land in the New Continent and in kind of despair about her land in the old continent. She owned land -- sure. But it was unusable due to Plastic Duck's and Paper Duck's griefing (yes they are still active). Does she own land that in fact is in the shadow of various blinking and particle-spewing objects that utterly detract from her experience? Yeah, her name is on the land. But I would wager that it is Plastic Duck who owns that sim, not her, because he gets to run it, set out the crap he wants to, and drive everyone away. This poor woman bought the land there from someone else fleeing Plastic -- without realizing he was at issue in that sim.

Someone like that is honestly not going to fuss the way you are fussing about land that technically doesn't have her name on it if she gets the full enjoyment of it.



Have you not read "any reason or no reason" in the TOS?



It seems to me that the consumer knows that by right-clicking on the land and then having to read the land menu that says IM Anshe. This is a customer service problem then, not a fraud problem.




But they can't. Try and click on it. It doesn't work. You can't buy it. Is there something I'm not getting about this? But I"ve been out there and right-clicked on it. It doesn't go through.



LL was more worried about "limiting liability" if all sorts of newbie baronlet wannabees tried to scam people -- they weren't concerned about Anshe. It's helpful to remember that.

Very well sead. Yes exactly.

Doesnt matter if thats true or not. The need is there for better tools and information available to users. That battle you are describing is brought up by you on almost EVERY subject and should have its own forum.

Good we agree. Let LLs implement ways to inform and protect the consumers.

Pretty easy to find a grief story on the mainland. And you wont be grief free on rented/leased island land either. Maybe eventually you could get Anshe to ban griefers from the estate but will she have time for that? Or what if someone on a rental/lease next to yours doesnt like you for whatever reason and complains to Anshe and exaggerates things? That dispute could end up costing your land. At least the lady being griefed on the mainland at least could resell her land so its not a total loss, but an island lease could be a total investment loss. Anyway not sure why we are discussing this, we both agree there is value added by Anshe-type leases/sales.

News to me. Didnt know there was specific text in the TOS concerning sub leasing.

Its not about that, its about the consumer going to the land to begin with only to find its not a true sale or what they are looking for.

I know. I said they cant in my post. Re-read it.

Uh, yeah... I never implied otherwise.

i think, this is an excellent proposal and i would very much wish, that everyone interested in this issue would step back a moment, think about and not dismiss it only because "it came from anshe". actually, similar suggestions have been made here and in the thread anshe started (/130/57/44117/1.html) by a lot if different residents

it sounds expecially sensible to me, to have not only two but three types of "owning/selling" land.
- buying from lindens
- buying from another resident (with some restricted rights)
- renting from another resident

i would like to see this three different categories of possible land deals stil in one list, though; clearly marked as what they are. what i don't think is very practical is the additional information to be in the wiki. a large group of the residents (growing larger every day with more and more "not so technically inclined people joining SL) would never look in the wiki or the forums.

i want the possibility to click on some kind of info button besides the listing, describing exactly what are my rights when closing one specific deal - and what powers remain with others; lindens and other residents.

and please, please, please: let's not discuss about what to call the second option for pages and pages and pages: sale, lease, rent, watchamaycallit etc. for me, as someone not grown up in an english speaking country, the differences between rent, lease etc. are rather subtle anyway and - if i understand it right - not even the same in US english and british english.

as Alyssa and Prok have pointed out again and again and again: after I have bought land from anshe (and she really makes it exactly clear that it is not the same as buying from the lindens; no attempt at fraud, that i can see), i have nearly all of the powers a landholder has on the mainland. this is very much different from other "renting" offers.

the only thing different from owning land on the mainland is, that anshe still has some powers over the land too; which is a good thing to me and most of the residents in her sims, because ...

if i want the zoning rules enforced, i need to give her that power. and these rules and the effect they have on my land and the neighbourhood are the one reason i am buying from her (the price difference is laughable in the long run). and i am completely aware of that - because what she said to me and what is written on her website about it. to me, i have "bought" land from her; with some restricted rights, she clearly states.