RC Questions

back in 2003 porn accounted for 12% of the web http://www.healthymind.com/s-porn-stats.html

fast forward to 2009 and sl only has between 2-4% porn.

We're already family friendly by the look of it.

I found this too.. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/11/30/2008-11-30_dirty_little_web_secret_workplace_porn.html

This is so far correct, but nevertheless with or without lawyer: we are all somehow adults and we all have to do with contracts enough along our lifes. From Pennsylvania we heard...that the LL-TOS counts there so far nothing, 0, Zero. And in Europe counts this TOS even nothing. Same like these EULA's from MS. MS paid meanwhile hundreds of millions of dollars penalty to the EU...because of their one sided conditions. Intel too if I am correct informed and some other IT folks from over the ocean. It seems that US-companies have a bit a robust cowboy-mentality in formatting these click-things and these badges on their software/hardware packets.

All are too much one sided.

It is true, that so far no one had the courage to drag LL to a serious court, wherever on globe, - but this TOS, I bet, would not survive one minute, even not in CA, if some really smart lawyers would deconstruct it.

The only problem is, that such a try is expensive and eats time and nervs until the highest instance is reached.

Anyway: seen from my austrian citizen view, this TOS is a joke and not worth to take notice of it. We all clicked it like we click all these things, but they have no serious meanings if it would come to a case. Such a thing is fast written and sounds ever harsh, but has in most countries no chance to survive in front of a judge.

A friend of mine who makes software once put in a clause, in the click-through to which you have to agree before using his product, confiming that you understood that, by consenting to this agreement, you were thereby not only promising my friend 10% of your salary from then on but also selling your soul to the devil.

No one noticed, apparently.

That's been done a bunch of times. I recall a program from the '80s where the license agreement was enforced by an option on your soul.

Hmm. I'm using the Linux Second Life 1.23.0 (0) May 5 2009 14:20:40 (Cool SL Viewer). My settings aren't persistent from session to session; nevertheless, I was able to TP to Arapaima without bothering to reset them to Adult, though I can't search for Adult terms (BDSM) when I get there (I'm age-verified and Payment on file & used)

My understanding is that it depends on whether the EULA is presented before or after installation, the details of the EULA, and the jurisdiction.

The issue of when the user had to decided to accept or decline is that if you install/purchase, then deal with the EULA, it is unfair since you had no opportunity to turn it down.

A EULA likely cannot override consumer protection such as 'fair use' either, which is the concept that if you cannot use the product as advertised or as intended, you are not really getting what you paid for, EULA or not. This is the area where LL has to be careful, and *may* be offside.

At least that is my understanding.

The fact that you click on it just to get it out of the way, though, does not invalidate it any more than would signing a contract without reading it simply because you want the product and don't care what you are signing to.

Fortunately for me, I'm in charge of how I feel, and I don't feel ashamed. You are certainly entitled to have a discussion between you and Argent, but maybe you'd like to take that out of a public forum? Dirty and underhanded tactics is simply your opinion. But feel free to draw that conclusion if you'd like. You have shared enough here in these public forums for me to draw my own conclusions.

... The one that says LL can change it anytime they like whether we like it or not. If I were LL I wouldnt rely on ANYTHING in the TOS holding up if challenged in court. They've lost on that one already. Excerpt from http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnology/pubArticleLT.jsp?id=1202424841784 below, mentioning the Bragg case....



That case successfully challenged the arbitration clause, but its the second ruling that should make LL very afraid of pushing ahead with this. We've voiced our concerns about getting ARs even after we've been told its ok to stay on Mature land, doesnt LL see that they'll get a few 'ARs' of their own out of this... How many more Braggs are out there, potentially getting as infuriated when this lands as the randomly wandering prude does when encountering kinky sex? The ToS remains radically slanted to LLs benefit and theres a darn good reason theres always been a company lawyer present at all brown bags or press conferences.

I never admitted to bashing anyone. I admitted that by not really debating I was adding to the noise I was decrying. So I took time off from work, and then everyone got quiet. So I kind of think that was all talk now. It's easier to bash me when I'm not here. That's fine. Bash away.

I think you missed the point of everything I said then. I never said to just go along with it. I said first and foremost to be open to the possibility that the sky wont' fall. Really examine the plan and how it will affect you, and take Decisive Action based on that. People are acting like it's a foregone conclusion that this is 100% bad, has no redeeming qualities or benefits, and that SL will fall dead tomorrow because of it, and I have to call B.S. on that. Sorry. But I never once said just do nothing and shut up and take it. I sure haven't shut up, have I?

Correction: Many people consider it 100% bad with no redeeming qualities or benefits *without* bitching and moaning that SL will be destroyed by it.

You are a prime example of the problem. And of the solution. Ironic.

Apart from the fact that something need not be adult to be a distraction, it would be extremely easy for a student or employee to add a credit card to their account (e.g. on the pretext of buying a better outfit) and then change the settings to access adult content.

Ironically, as I mentioned at an VW educational workshop last year, if you want to restrict where your students/employees can go, or run SecondLife in a kiosk to exhibit a particular sim only etc., the Restrained Life Viewer has some useful functionality.

Matthew

I understand what you are saying, but if you run an ad, that makes you a business. That's LL's definition, not mine. So my statement stands, only businesses run ads, because running ads makes you a business. Whether you make money or not is immaterial. Don't shoot the messenger, It's LLs definition.

Here's the way things stand, from my point of view....

Lots of people are upset, mis-informed, hearing rumors, panicking, starting protests, and basically beating their heads on a wall..... WHY?

Cause LL is not releasing this to the general public. Why is this? Why has this not been addressed on the login screen that these *much awaited changes are coming?*

Because the overwhelming objection will be more than they can handle. Because they, like a 2 year old are playing...peek-a-boo... i can't see you. If they don't see it, it must not be there. forget the fact that if they LOOKED... they would see.

Overwhelmingly... everyone i have spoke to.. and god, its been a LOT of people... have consistently said the same thing. Either they had NO IDEA what was coming, or they object to how its being presented.

Its not the plan itself we object to. Not a SINGLE person here has said... "yes i do adult content, and i want KIDS in my place." I think its safe to say we all agree the KIDS have no business in SL to begin with...and if they ARE here, we don't want them in our places.

BUT.... There are better ways. As someone else stated... here's a MUCH BETTER ALTERNATIVE....

1. Fix search as it stands now. Require ALL MATURE MATERIAL to be flagged MATURE. There are many many that follow the rules.. and JUST AS MANY that do not. Escort agencies, BDSM, GOR places.... all marked MATURE. the rest? They aren't marked at all. unclick *search mature* and look at the THOUSANDS of returns you get searching "escort, free sex, penis and various other *mature* terms."
You want to clean up SL? Start there. Stop imposing NEW RULES.. and simply ENFORCE the rules in place now. There's 80% of your problem solved.

2. Lots of places i go, i get a lil *pop-up* that says the region is running a different simulator than the one i left. If people would properly flag their parcel.. or sim, or region, mature... WHY CANT YOU GET A POP UP WHEN YOU CLICK....TP NOW... that says.. You are entering a MATURE REGION...Content is NOT filtered... do you still wish to TP?
This would one solve two things....
1. People that *didn't mean to TP here, but are now offended by what they see.. no excuse. it said it.. you clicked it.. its your issue. no AR's, no complaints.. no liability from anyone but you.
2. Give people an option to cancel a mis-click... or continue on. again... protection on the parcel owners, and LL... cause they are covered. You said yes... its all on you.

I have owned an adult business for 3+ years in SL, been in world since my first avie was rezzed in 04. I have met a lot of awesome people.. and a lot have carried over to RL as well. We aren't asking for LL to give us all our demands on a silver platter... we are asking for some consideration. plain and simple.

And as to Meta's statement about the millions of potential users....
Here's a clue any good business owner will tell you...
A happy customer will tell one person how happy they are.
An UNHAPPY customer will tell EVERYONE they see.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...you already have all these customers.. why run them off and hope you get new ones? Help us help you.. and we will, in effect... bring you more business.. and help handle all the new ones too... just like we did when we went from 15000 on the grid at one time, to 60000 on the grid at once.

And that's about that

~Brie

P.S. Blondin.. whats the point in talking to you if you ignore IMS? I'm just sayin.....

No, LL's definition is that if you run an ad for sexual content, it is adult content. Calling that a business is your projection. It also makes your point that this "only effects business" meaningless because you're defining "business" as "whatever this effects".

Meanwhile you're arguing with Linden Labs' definition of "advertising", so you're in no position to say "I'm just the messenger". You're not, you're taking a position.

Boobs - LEGALIZE IT!

Thank you for saying this.

Perhaps, but "Your World, Your Imagination" definitely covers the other sense of the word.

Ah but if it's such an iron-clad case, why aren't people just suing LL? Why are they, instead, spending many, many forum posts going on and on about how what LL is doing is illegal? It's doing no good, except for upping their post counts. L isn't going to listen to legal threats a forum.

If you feel that this is truly illegal, talk to a lawyer, not to us, get together, pool your resources, and sue LL. I personally don't think you have a hope in hell of winning, but heck, I'm not a lawyer. As a male friend of mine is prone to say: "sh*t or get off the pot".

So, instead, just like Godwining the thread, playing the "this has to be illegal" card is just another way of expressing your frustration, I am assuming.

Because it sure as heck isn't accomplishing anything else...

... from a vendor, a large vendor, in world that sells many levels of things, including some pretty heavy duty adult content. I think they sent this to everyone that had ever purchased anything from them. I'm not in their group and believe I purchased a ground sit from them. Not sure how they did this, but they did.

The note started out with an apology for an unsolicited note, and a reminder they they have never done this in the past, but that this was a special situation. The note then proceeded to outline, in a very professional and non-emotional way, the changes that were about to come into play, and gave instructions on how to put payment information on file and how to adult verify.

At the end, they asked that people keep this note and pass it around, including passing it to any new people they came across. They did this, without making it look like a spam for more business.

It seemed impressive.

This.

Quoting this because it needs to be said again, I said it before as well .... LL, *why* couldn't you simply enforce your own rules before? Why should adding a third category, "adult", suddenly enable you to enforce your rules, when you can't now? *This* is what I seriously fail to understand, and I don't think I'm alone with that ...

True, true, TRUE!

That's a good idea. Perhaps we should go ahead and enumerate the MANY GOOD SUGGESTIONS that have been made in the last 10 threads IN DETAIL in Lord Sullivan's Wiki over at slapt.me.

We've detailed why these issues are bad, and cited real life examples of similar attempts at what LL is doing, and their disastrous results, so I think we've been a bit more forthcoming than you make us out to be.

I think we see and understand the "big picture" just fine, thanks. "Favor"?? WHAT favor? I don't see any positive benefit from any of what LL is doing. None. SHOW ME where *I* am benefitting from this in any positive way. PLEASE.



I could say the same in reverse back to you in response, but I won't. I WILL TRY. I'm HAPPY to debate it with you and, indeed, anyone else. Just stick to the facts and debate the issues and leave your less-than-stellar proclamations about other people's "maturity level" out of the debate, lest your own (or worse) be called into question.

To be fair, I think the REAL "majority" have no clue it is coming, or what it means. They are too busy enjoying their Second Life, including their "Adult Content", at the moment to realize that they are standing on or near the tracks, and there is a derailing train bearing down on them.

Yours is the same mindset I get when people get indignant about others who complain about "play balance" and "cheating" in online PvE games. "It doesn't hurt you or anyone else, why do you care?". While it is true that cheating or using an exploit doesn't directly harm another player, it DOES do significant harm to the ecology of the game, thus indirectly, and significantly, harming other players. That's what those people fail to understand. They only look for harm in the simplest and most obvious of places, blithely ignoring the "bigger picture", whereupon damage to the greater whole DOES cause damage to the play experience of ALL players. When the "world" ecology/economy is impacted, EVERYONE suffers. Some more than others, to be sure, but no one is perfectly immune from such effects.



That's a pretty tacit dismissal of a LOT of people's thoughts and feelings over the issue. If that's all you have to say about it, then why bother? Most of us haven't made wrong choices; the circumstances around our GOOD choices are changing, and drastically, making them out to be "bad choices".

Why did I buy Mature land, rather than PG? Because I wanted land with the least restrictions possible so that I could literally live out the fantasy "You World, Your Imagination". Now, I am stuck with land that I won't be able to sell, and has too many restrictions for me to live with. What other choice do I have? Right now, I don't have a choice. This isn't about "choice", as much as Linden Lab likes to spin that word. This is a mandate. How do I exercise my desires within the terms of a mandate? Simple answer: I can't. Thus, my response MUST be "override the mandate". How do I do that? There's no easy way, let me tell you after spending more than a year getting LL to outlaw adfarms/extortion parcels. All that can be done is fight the good fight and get them to see reason. It won't happen overnight; it may never happen at all. However, it is either that, or shut up, abandon land, tier down, go basic, and/or just quit.

Is that what you and others who support this plan want? If so, you're going to get your wish as literally, THOUSANDS of people follow suit. Less people to buy your stuff. Less people making cool stuff. Less people to interact with; your online friends list getting shorter and shorter every day.

Me? I don't want that; any of it. However, if that's the only REAL "choice" I am being given, I think the "SL experiment" is over for me.

So stating what the current policy is is taking a stand?
Well in that case I guess I have already stated:
"I am 100% for LL's new Adult policy as is!"
NOT!



Or were you referring to something else other then what you quoted?