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Blue Linden
There For You
Join date: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 3,311
05-01-2009 15:53
Discussing the new Release candidate and the Adult Content Definitions.
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
05-01-2009 16:00
We all hate it. Please stop.

edit: and, to expand on that a little, the adult content project fails to meet any of the goals that LL has laid out. While I have talked to a few residents that do support it, it seems that most of these are think LL is cleaning up the mainland or keeping RL kids out, which this project is not doing.

Are you guys actually interested in what we think about this? If so, the answer is very, very clear: we think it stinks and do not want it. You are hurting the grid. Please stop.

edit edit: /me encourages people to vote for this issue if you _don't_ want LL to proceed with this project: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2727. Coming up on 1500 votes in just over a day, Blue. Any chance a Linden is going to respond?
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Tali Rosca
Plywood Whisperer
Join date: 6 Feb 2007
Posts: 767
05-01-2009 16:10
To have any sort of fruitful discussion about the "Adult Content Definitions", we *really* need an official word on whether the knowledge base 6010 definitions still stand.
The previous thread contained lots of hints at possible interpretations and "what we actually mean", but nobody feel sure about what status those comments (by Blondin Linden) actually has.
In particular, the specific message that the PG guidelines are too broad and will be rewritten seems to imply that the Adult guidelines in the same article *will not*, but will go into effect as written, leaving us with nothing but one Linden's somewhat inconsistent explanations and reassurances that "we'll not enforce it in stupid ways".

Edit: And to comment on Sindy's edit, yes it does indeed seem that people who, for some reason or other, have had bad experiences are now seeing LL "doing something", and assume that what is being done will address whatever they perceive to be the problem.
So far, I’ve seen people I’ve talked to believe it will protect newcomers from harassment, prevent griefing in non-adult areas, and avoid the sex industry in SL being controlled by criminals.
The headline "LL restricts adult content in Second Life" *could* quite conceivably cover any number of those, so it’s somewhat understandable that people believe that LL is alleviating whatever problem they see. The actual details may not be what people imagine when they hear it, but for now, it seems to be an effective PR campaign.
Any "inconvenience"/"censorship"/"thought policing"/"whatever you choose to call it depending on how strongly you feel" is merely collateral damage for that PR campaign.
Kira Welty
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 125
05-01-2009 16:24
Has the RC 1.23 been pulled?
The download for the current release candidate viewer Second_Life_1-22-11-113976_ReleaseCandidate_Setup.exe

It was Second_Life_1-23-0-118378_ReleaseCandidate_Setup.exe

What's up?
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Deltango Vale
Registered User
Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 127
Messy
05-01-2009 16:25
Well, it sure made a mess of my eyelashes, eyebrows and lipstick! Distant, background sims sometimes flicker when standing on a skydeck. The updated search/map windows seem crammed and badly laid out. Tick boxes everywhere! I have to tick 'adult' in a dozen places in addition to the master setting in preferences. It's all a bit much. The master setting is sufficient; the tick boxes are superfluous.

PS. I have gone back to the regular viewer until the next release of the RC viewer. While I was able to fix the lipstick and eyebrow problem, the eyelash problem remains. People with no-mod skins are gonna be screaming.
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Tali Rosca
Plywood Whisperer
Join date: 6 Feb 2007
Posts: 767
05-01-2009 16:32
From: Kira Welty
Has the RC 1.23 been pulled?
The download for the current release candidate viewer Second_Life_1-22-11-113976_ReleaseCandidate_Setup.exe

It was Second_Life_1-23-0-118378_ReleaseCandidate_Setup.exe

What's up?

According to the blog, it has been pulled because it tripped virus scanners. Also, it crashes instantly at startup on machines using comma as the decimal point rather than dot. (You can work around that by changing your system settings, though that could mess up other programs).
Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
05-01-2009 16:32
Current behavior of the release candidate:

Search filtering is based solely on the region rating only.

A PG ad can be placed in a PG region and will be visible to PG searches.

A PG ad placed on a PG parcel in a mature region is filtered from PG only searches.

Therefore the parcel maturity setting is obsolete and can be removed because parcel maturity is set at the region level.

Makes sense but a lot of people are wasting time and money on trying to place PG visible ads for stuff like shoe stores on PG parcels that are on mature rated regions.

So ads visible to PG only must be placed only on PG regions. I'm not sure everyone understands this. But that is the current behavior.

On the opposite end I expect to see ads placed on adult regions visible only to adult enabled searches

So the big in between mature regions are the question.

If Linden Lab would just keep the filtered word list available on the website somewhere then we could see what to avoid. Making us have to test ads over and over just adds to search system overhead. We have no idea what words some puritan now in control of Linden Lab will ban next and so we may have an ad running that suddenly goes invisible which has legal liability ramifications. In addition our ad that was OK one day might not be OK the next day and the abuse reports start flying from incapable "competition" that is of the variety that competes by griefing instead of by creating.

Publish the word list. Make is a bannable offense to exploit the published list in an unethical manner.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
05-01-2009 16:33
Ok I'm a wee bit drunk but here's my opinion:

1. Grandfather in existing private islands.

2. Allow estate owners and residents to flag a parcel as adult.

3. Make it a policy that any adult business on a private island that is rated mature has to have a teleport routing point outside the action and that they then need to warn people that they need to be 18+ to go further, they have a yes or no dialogue.

4. When a private island parcel changes hands it reverts to the region default and no adult business is allowed on that plot.
Felix Oxide
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 655
05-01-2009 16:37
Well I have said all I think I can say on the subject. My sim along with many others will become completely invisible to new residents or residents who don't have a clue about setting their preferred search settings just like they didn't know to check the mature box in the past. This plan seems to be saying "clean it up or we choke off you supply of fresh residents". Am I right or am I wrong? Lindens?
Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
05-01-2009 16:42
We need a distinction between PG and Mature. From the looks of things, there's little practical difference between the two under the new policy.

We need better definitions of Adult Content, incorporating the information we've been given in the last thead.

We also need assurances in the policy that private residences are not subject to being AR'd over unadvertised adult content.

It would be nice if current resident owning non-commercial Mature land were able to swap it for adult land, since that's what we're paying tier for now.

Businesses currently renting space in regions that don't plan on converting to adult, and are faced with being put out of business need an option to buy Adult rated land.
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Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
05-01-2009 16:44
From: Felix Oxide
Well I have said all I think I can say on the subject. My sim along with many others will become completely invisible to new residents or residents who don't have a clue about setting their preferred search settings just like they didn't know to check the mature box in the past. This plan seems to be saying "clean it up or we choke off you supply of fresh residents". Am I right or am I wrong? Lindens?

well they won't see anything but PG stuff on PG regions in search and they are forced PG on install and there is no mention of the existence of other content so PG regions just got valuable
Felix Oxide
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 655
05-01-2009 16:46
From: Ann Otoole
well they won't see anything but PG stuff on PG regions in search and they are forced PG on install and there is no mention of the existence of other content so PG regions just got valuable
Yes and I have no desire to create a world of rainbows and puppies and butterflies. Not for 300 bucks a month.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
05-01-2009 17:08
Blondin: you need to update KB6010 and you need to put your answers in a FAQ, as soon as humanly possible.
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Imnotgoing Sideways
Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=
Join date: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 4,694
05-01-2009 17:28
Well....



So far, things seem normal. (^_^)y
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Innula Zenovka
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,825
Question about permitted words on products themselves
05-01-2009 18:07
Thanks for opening this thread, Blondin. Here's a question left over from the previous one, which I realize I posted too late for you to consider there, but when you get a chance, some advice here would be greatly appreciated.

I realize that there are some terms -- BDSM, Gor, Slave, Domme and so on -- that I can't use in adverts for products I'm selling from anything other than Adult land, even though the products themselves could safely be displayed for sale on Mature flagged land.

What I'm not clear about, though, is what I can and can't do with the packaging and labeling on Mature land. Am I allowed, for example, to advertise a "St Andrews Cross" that I'm selling on Mature Land and then call it "Bondage Cross" on the vendor or the box label that people see when they get to my Mature shop? Or is that cheating?
Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
05-01-2009 18:37
I think there will be legal ramifications if Linden Lab attempts to force people to remain in a non adult sector and force them to not use appropriate descriptive terms for the products they market. I have never heard of anyone being allowed to do that. So if a store has fetish gear out for sale then they need to move to Ursula or stop selling it and it be the choice of the resident to not move if they do not want to move. For LL to arbitrarily commence deciding who gets to stay in business and who doesn't sounds like real serious FTC lawsuit bait to me.
Taly Fluffy
Registered User
Join date: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 32
05-01-2009 18:53
From: Ann Otoole
I think there will be legal ramifications if Linden Lab attempts to force people to remain in a non adult sector and force them to not use appropriate descriptive terms for the products they market. I have never heard of anyone being allowed to do that. So if a store has fetish gear out for sale then they need to move to Ursula or stop selling it and it be the choice of the resident to not move if they do not want to move. For LL to arbitrarily commence deciding who gets to stay in business and who doesn't sounds like real serious FTC lawsuit bait to me.


Since the Lindens are going to give free landswaps to the people that they feel "must" move and then apparently turn down some folks who will wind up having to buy Ursula land to move... I think the Lindens feel that they've covered their bases.

I assume that the Lindens are going to refuse some free landswap requests because they don't want (for instance) somebody who owns 64 4x4 (nonsexy) parcels on the mainland, to ask for a free swap to a nice single-parcel 1024 on Ursula, when they don't really deserve that free swap. THAT's the kind of swap I think the Lindens are planning to refuse during the "free swaps" phase.
Jill Winger
Registered User
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 71
Jack, Jack, Jack Jack Jack!
05-01-2009 19:19
Quoting yourself:

"[1200] Jack Linden Tal, the number of people who have told me they are very upset about this is less than 10 (and I get a huge number of IMs). If this is as unpopular as you think then it's not reflected in the support calls, tickets, etc. We know that for some people this isn't a popular move, but that doesn't mean everyone"



Quoting Taly Fluffy:

Other Lindens did not participate in the new thread so we assumed Blondin to be our official liaison. Since Blondin works part time, most days he was not present in the forum, and as the days passed, he got farther and farther behind on his reading. (Not his fault.) Those Residents who had diligently read the thousands of preceding posts took to answering the questions of new people who joined the thread.

I sometimes spent up to 3 hours a day trying to follow the conversations and determine what answers Blondin was providing.

This is a terrible loss of time for each affected Resident.

I note that the current thread is presently at 4,676 posts.

Participation in the threads has included input, feedback, questions (mostly unanswered), infighting, and the presentation of logical alternative paths that SL could take. Blondin answered a few of our questions here and there, but each time an official written update or statement came out from SL or other staff, it would contradict information that Blondin had told us.

It is facile for you to say that you think the move isn't unpopular because you aren't seeing IMs, support calls, or tickets. Am I to assume that SL intentionally shunted us into an impotent forum thread where we could be ignored? If I was supposed to be harrassing you or other Lindens with IMs, support calls, and tickets all this time, Blondin never said a word about it.

From your comment to Tal, it sounds to me like none of our weeks of intensive forum input has been counted as legitimate representation. Perhaps I should have spent all this time simply banging my head on my office wall.


My own comment:

How VERY telling your comment was, Jack. It shows that someone higher in authority on the project than Blondin is OBVIOUSLY and quite seriously out of touch with the frontline people affected by this "Usula Project"

I can't stress enough "From your comment to Tal, it sounds to me like none of our weeks of intensive forum input has been counted as legitimate representation. "

Maybe we all should have been banging our heads on a wall, I can only shake my head and wonder. It's really true, LL DOESN'T care and the people that need to hear about our concerns AREN'T LISTENING!
Valentine Young
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 37
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2727?
05-01-2009 19:55
Still growing at

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2727?

in 2nd place with 1551 vote in 2 days
aiming to be number 1 issue in the JIRA.
JaneD DeCuir
Registered User
Join date: 4 Jun 2008
Posts: 35
End of changing adults to criminals
05-01-2009 20:05
From: Miro Collas
Blondin, could you kindly clarify that point?

+ The ability to choose "Adult" as a category of Places to search for will disappear after the 60-day transition period. Any places still categorized as "Adult" at that time will then be migrated by Linden Lab to the "Other" category.

What is the purpose of moving "adult" places into "other"? And how does this make Search more "predictable"? [/Quote



From: Blondin Linden
After the 1.23 final viewer is shipped there will be a 60-day grace period for people to upgrade. After 60 days, if they have not upgraded, they will no longer be able to search for adult content. They will still be able to access adult regions if they have enough info to be adult-verified, but search won't return results with adult keywords or from adult regions
[/Quote


Blue,
thats simply deletes my abilities as long LL isnt able to put my verified paypal to the payment info. I dont want too loose my (adult-) abilities for a unworking plan some bored employees have. Love me or leave me for that. :eek: I dont want to use a new viewer because im stable with my selected old viewers.

I spend daily lots of hours for (non adult-) content creation and with this plan LL kills all my abilites in SL in one task. Sometimes LL is really hurting my patience and my intelligence but i still like SL.

The same passes when you add this new features to the new viewer.

For the future to handle payment info for special or rare occasions your would be good counseled when you add the ability to put L$ offworld into the sl-account to get a premium or whatever similar. We can still buy our L$ from some exchanges, why is that so a complicate thing?!
LL is working always against my schedules. :mad:

Im here for fun and not for a few kids who didnt know whats happen in the life of adults! Cut this kids technically away from the major owned adult-part of SL.
Fire all this heads who have invented this "adult thing". :D

I never want to move my stuff to a estate or to "Ursula" because estates are more laggy and slower then mainland it is. Im happy where i am in SL! AND the second major part why i dont like to move is that the most of the landlords who own estates are really assholes and thiefs. They just simply double the tier they have to pay to you, im not willed to spend my moneys to conceited apes so that they can buy after one year of my paid rentals a real Ferrari! Better you control their financial behaviour first before you try to control the sexual behaviour of adults! Its a shame!

I never have seen a company with so many odd fellows like Linden Lab is.
Ryuu Radek
Registered User
Join date: 9 Apr 2008
Posts: 5
what percentage of residents actually requested this?
05-01-2009 21:07
I have read much of the information presented and it seems to me that you have given a small percentage of residents, those who are most vocal, a more significant impact in how SL is structured then what is the wishes of what appears to be an over whelming majority. You keep referring to a this group as being substantial but you have not so far as I can find defined just what percentage of the SL residents in total are represented by this vocal group? So I would like to know, just how many residents have requested this new restrictive structure? It seems to me that you are doing what so many before you have done, caved to the "Moral Majority" (aka the vocal minority). These people have totally fucked up the real world, and SL was the last safe refuge from them and now you have given it over to them. I am severely disappointed.

One of the things that has always bothered me about this small group of people is how they feel privileged to be able to dictate to me just what is and is not acceptable. I work in the media industry, I run several cable television channels and a web site. I always find myself telling people that God invented the remote control so they can change the channel. If they don't like something, they have the choice change the channel to avoid the undesired content. But for some reason this is not good enough, they would instead impose their standards on me and violate my 1st Amendment rights under the guise of "morality" and "community standards". Same thing with the Internet. Rather then chose not to go to adult content sites, they make sure they become very familiar with it's content so they can better oppose it's very existence. That is pure and simple bullshit!

Do you honestly believe they will stop with just moving all "Adult" content to a special area? You gave an inch, they broke you, they will not stop. I know, I've fought this battle before. Once you show any sign of movement, it's like blood in the water. I'll be watching for the feeding frenzy and when that happens, you can kiss SL goodbye. It will not even be yours to control anymore and you will at long last decide it just isn't worth it anymore and shut it down. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt to prove it.
Ilana Debevec
Registered User
Join date: 25 May 2007
Posts: 130
05-01-2009 21:35
Allrighty, I have a very simple, and IMNSHO VALID point here...

- "Adult" parcels will be blocked from entry if you are not 'verified'

- "Adult Words" will be filtered from search if you are not 'verified'

ahh .. 'scuse me.... IF YOU CAN'T GET THERE, WHO CARES IF YOU CAN SEE THE LISTING.

The fact that you can see listings... gasp.. MIGHT EVEN BE A REASON TO GET VERIFIED!

'Filtering' is pure CENSORSHIP.
Waterstar Eilde
Registered User
Join date: 12 May 2007
Posts: 404
Observations on RC 1.23.118378 (Mac)
05-01-2009 21:51
1) Rating selection in Preferences has to be made at every login (i.e. defaults to PG and Mature on logoff).

2) 'Are you sure you want to quit?' message comes up randomly on logoff, despite the 'Don't show me this again' box being checked'. I thought this might be happening only after login with an alt, but not so - sometimes it happens, sometimes not. However, it appears more likely to happen if you logoff before teleporting anywhere - but see 3)

3) Ditto 'Are you sure you want to teleport?' message.
Imago Aeon
Animation Designer
Join date: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 65
05-01-2009 21:55
So when is someone going to make official announcements to the non-english speaking community? I've talked to many people who have no idea that this was even happening. So, what happens to them since no one told them then they are going to be in direct violation when this whole bru-ha-ha comes down. Unfortunately, there is no announcement system like they have in other MMO games. Why not a massive notecard to everyone in several different languages?

Because obviously there's no way to stop this. Because our cries at the moment are falling on deaf ears, and LL's Press Release? *laughing hard* No matter how much you wash you're still going to have adult content and gambling having made SL those millions. Cut that off... *shakes head* And you have nothing short of a gary's moddish version of SL. You just build and build and do pretty much nothing all day but take pictures and maybe make videos.

*sighs* But really, if I didn't know about these forums I wouldn't have known about these changes either. You know not everyone in SL comes here or even knows about it. SL's website is horrible and links are buried all over. It was nice when the blog was a true blog with comments, but then... Changes came... No comments, blog became more sterile... *chuckles* LL's is really trying to clean up their image, but if they're allowed to push adult content to the ghetto, then they're going to eventually make everyone get rid of it all together. Don't doubt it. The native indians in America were the same way. American settlers moved them from one place to another until they got in the way of their life. Then the indians got mad and wars broke out. Now the indians live on small reservations with the government still breathing on them. *shakes head* It'll be the same for all of us adult content merchants.

I was hoping voting on the issue:

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2727

Would help the same way it helped with the openspace price hike.

You see... We're not asking for lower prices, or anything like that. We're asking that you don't push us off the map and make us relocate. This isn't about money... But if you push out all the adult merchants... It'll become about the money. But not for us. For Linden Labs and for Second Life. A bulk of it's money is made on the adult content business. Lose us, and what do you have? Land barons, island owners (a lot of them also adult merchants), and people who pay or only pick up freebies. Very slim pickings and IMO not a very smart thing to do in this struggling economy.
Waterstar Eilde
Registered User
Join date: 12 May 2007
Posts: 404
Search suggestion: Employ a competent linguist
05-01-2009 22:02
If LL wants to avoid making a complete ass of themselves internationally with this cock and bull excuse for a working search facility, they should employ a competent linguist to escort them on the path and snuff out ambiguities - just trying to prick their collective conscience, of course ;)

Seriously LL, the cost of doing this would be a drop in the ocean in the whole scheme of things, and well worth it for the outcome, I'm sure. As it stands, certain inclusions and omissions are a complete joke.
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