Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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03-24-2009 02:44
From: Nany Kayo I am representing all tribes and all Indian people. See for yourself. Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education, this Friday.
should have got off your skank ass and done this yourself if you didnt want someone else speaking for you, enit. That and the last line is what scares the life out of me. You really need to learn tolerance of all, even if their views differ from yours. I disagree with people here often, but that doesnt mean i have to lower myself and start calling them names because of it. With the way you conduct yourself here i am glad that you do not have my voice, its exactly this narrow mindedness that causes so many of the worlds problems we see today, and the worse thing about all this is that you cannot see it yourself. The way you conduct youself here is no better than the way the white man oppressed your great nation years ago and now you seem to want to carry that great big chip on your shoulder for many people that i am sure would not want you speaking for them but thats just my opinion.
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Katheryne Helendale
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Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,187
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03-24-2009 02:54
From: Nany Kayo part of a civilization in decline I guess. Kind of like the Romans got before they crashed. *facepalms* I'm speechless! You are so desperately adamant about trying to prove your case that you're even grasping at obviously sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek remarks to defend your horribly misguided point of view! I truly pity you. |
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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03-24-2009 02:57
From: Catherine Cotton Ok I have a legitimate question for the Adult Industry folks posting  I have read a whole lot in the past couple of days and I am hearing that a lot of those in the Adult Industry do not want their own continent. I find that a bit surprising. As I would think that if you all were together; there would be some benefits. Topping my list would be; Accessibility. Virtual bar hoping sounds like fun to me Hell that could even be an event clubs could organize. Knowing that your patrons are adults. Or at least that LL has taken steps to protect you against the kids who have lied to get onto the main. (We all know kids are on the grid.) More opportunities within your community; networking/job opportunities. Probably more that I have not thought of. I think it could be new and exciting. Cat ACK sorry it's late The Question; What is the main reason you do not want a continent of your own? I am in the its a good idea camp and looking for the positives rather than focusing on the negatives. Yes short term there will be loses but i think if LL then leaves the adult stuff alone after it will pick back up and as you say possibly even be better for business. But a lot of folks do not like change as they have settled in their routines and feel that change will harm them rather than looking at what we can achieve out of this and there is nothing wrong with that just because it differs from my views. I am sure as i have stated before LL does not want to get rid totally of all adult content and ruin SL thats just plain crazy, however we are not privy as to the real reasons as to why they are driving this forward. Maybe if LL approached this with honesty rather than the truth, as this can be twisted to serve their purposes but honesty can't, we would perhaps understand and be able to help in a more constructive manner than presently, as we do not what is driving this change for sure. Just my opinion though
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Ian Undercroft
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Join date: 3 Nov 2007
Posts: 86
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03-24-2009 02:58
I don't use SL for any business or commercial purpose. I'm already age verified and PIOF. I have a private estate and so will not be forced to move. My personal freedom to access and explore the diverse and rich world of SL will not be affected by any of these proposals. "I'm alright, Jack!"
But I do oppose these proposed changes because in my view as presently framed they will suppress freedom of expression, imagination and creativity. One of the great virtues of SL is that it allows escapism from RL and offers the ability to explore and experience things (whether sexual, violent or otherwise) which the majority of SL residents have no opportunity to explore and exeperience in RL.
I think that this forum has demonstrated that it is impossible to draw a clear distinction between what will be adult and what will be mature. The result: a new policy which is impossible to enforce and which will be "gamed".
I think that it also clear that the forced move of some residents from the existing mainland to the new adult continent is a logistical nightmare in terms of parcel allocation and location. In addition, if 2 popular venues find themselves sharing the same sim on the new continent, there will plainly be avatar entry and lag problems. The loss of LMs will also severely disrupt many.
It seems apparent that no reliable and effective means of age and identity verification exists and that, even if it did, many have privacy issues with it. In truth I think that of all of the proposals, it is those in relation age and indenity verfication that offend most on the basis that it is gratuitously divisive to restrict access to adult locations to those who are either age verified or PIOF. LL has sought to suggest that the owners of adult locations want this in order to ensure they are dealing only with adults. However, it is plain that majority do not want it at all because it will seriously restrict the ability of the majority of the SL userbase (which is not age verified and has no PIOF) to visit adult locations. In any event, PIOF does not indicate any willingness or desire at all on the part of that resident to visit adult locations.
In my view, and if no other changes are made to the proposals as originally published, those relating to age and identity verification for access to adult locations should be dropped. Logically, they should be compulsory for access to the whole of SL or they should not be compulsory at all. They should be replaced by enabling each individual resident to choose whether he/she wishes to access adult content and for access to be denied to such locations for those who choose that they do not. Approaching matters in this way everyone is truly given a choice. It would also reduce people "gaming" the distinction between mature and adult because there would (logistical problems of forced mainland relocation aside (see above)) be no adverse consequences of flagging adult. The absence of adverse consequences would cause the residents of SL realistically to assess whether their particular content and use is adult or mature and over a short period of time, a consensus would soon emerge. The difficult, if not impossible, task of drawing the distinction would be implemented by the residents themselves and LL would not need to play God.
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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03-24-2009 03:26
From: Patasha Marikh Hey Lord,
Bringing our culture to SL, is really no different that anyone else bringing their's. I mean there's French culture in SL, whether is it representative of traditional aspects of the French experience can be debated. Same for Native People's of any origin in SL.. be they American Indian, Celtic, Saxon, Greek, etc... No one can claim to speak for any ethnicity.
This is specifically true of a group whose origins span an entire continent, who at present are made up of over 500 Tribes, many speaking languages that are not common to eachother.
Even if we narrow down the experience pool to only identifying experiences post resettlement and termination of the past 130 years, the experience of Nany's Tribe, Cherokee Nation, is completely different that the experience of the Navajo, Lakota and Mission Bands. Shoot it's different for Cherokee Nation than it is for Eastern Band of Cherokees. It's different than my Tribe's experience and our reservation was only about 70 Miles from hers.
I can claim shared experience with maybe 50,000 other members of the Tribes in my region of Oklahoma. We grew up going to Pow-wows with the Quapaws, Nany probably went to Red Earth if she went. Even those experiences would be different. Red Earth being more focused on Fancy Dance competition than Quapaw in which the big event was the stomp dances at night.
Then there is the whole experience of the civil war in the 70's. I'm assuming Nany went through that given her statement of her allotee grandmother who would have been living in 1890s when the allotments were made, so I'm guessing her age to be between somewhere around 60, given that, which side did her family go with? Traditional or Government? Were they split like my family was? The 70's experience still resonates with many many individuals and associations within tribes can still fracture along the lines of Traditional/Government though not with the bloodiness of the previous generation.
Nany speaks of 'the rez' but she doesn't specify. Reservation experiences are also different. The experience of the State Reservation Tribes of the East Coast are different that the Northern Plains reservations which are different that the Southwestern Reservations which are different that the Missions.
One simply can not claim to be of all American Indians. We have no national governance for Tribes other than the US Federal Government. Each Tribe negotiates separately with the BIA when the BIA looks at new rules and regulations. When the BIA rescinded Tribal constitutions in the 90's, each tribe rewrote their own, when new compacts are made with states/municipalities each Tribe negotiates for themselves.
If the Tribes were homogeneous between themselves then we would all either have casinos or not have casinos, not some do some don't. We would all be Traditional Faith, Catholic or Baptist or Morman or etc... not spanning them all.
The simple fact as well, is, SL is it's own culture. We can do presentations of cultural iconography from various regions of he world for educational experiences, or present language instruction for those interested in learning to speak. But sitting down and chatting with me in vitual hot tub at a welcome area, or next to a prim-teepee (which we never used, we were more lodge builders) is not going to expose you to my culture on the same kind of level it would if you were to jump a plane to Oklahoma and come to the general council meeting/stomp dance in May.
All that said, I have no issue with someone building a sim Indian village any more than I have problem with those awesome Buddhist monasteries I like to visit. I do understand that the sim I am visiting is not giving me an in depth understanding of the culture of Nepal though. And would be dubious of anyone claiming to be able to explain every issue facing every Nepalese person.
Patasha Thank you for that very enlightening post
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Kara Spengler
Pink Cat
Join date: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,227
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03-24-2009 03:27
Lindens: Why the big push to "clean up" the mainland by moving adult (whatever that is) stuff? Why not just move ugly builds .... surely that would be just as easy to define and do. It would do a lot for SL too.
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Kara Spengler
Pink Cat
Join date: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,227
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03-24-2009 03:32
From: samatha Congrejo ok but what happens when they say fetish wear is all adult. Then who decides what is fetish wear? And what will they do if someone has a fetish for clouds or noob outfits? |
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Katheryne Helendale
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Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,187
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03-24-2009 03:37
From: Da5id Weatherwax you know as well as I do that per Pratchetts Law any song stored on any media for long enough morphs into "Best of Queen"  Oh? Then could you explain how all these ABBA songs have managed to creep their way into my library?  |
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Kara Spengler
Pink Cat
Join date: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,227
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03-24-2009 03:46
From: Katheryne Helendale If that is so, then it will at least prevent families like mine from becoming displaced/separated by this segregation policy. BUT - they damned well better get it in writing, somewhere official, like the TOS! Otherwise, this is going to become serious AR-fodder! Right, without it in writing (we have Blondin's post, but that may or may not be what they will officially say in the end) and saying it supplants previous policies child avatars will be in potentially-ARable limbo if their family gets moved. |
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Katheryne Helendale
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Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,187
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03-24-2009 03:46
From: Nany Kayo I am representing all tribes and all Indian people. God, I seriously hope not! I have absolutely nothing but the utmost respect for all Native Americans; but if YOU are the voice of the entire Indian Nation... Thankfully, I know better. I have had the distinct honor and pleasure of having worked with many a Native American and know from personal experience that NONE of them share your narrow, racist, elitist point of view. I fail to see how you can claim to represent "all Indian people" when you have so deftly managed to alienate every single one of them who have spoken up on this forum. |
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Kara Spengler
Pink Cat
Join date: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,227
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03-24-2009 03:51
From: Katheryne Helendale Oh? Then could you explain how all these ABBA songs have managed to creep their way into my library? Insert bad joke about Freddy Mercury and probably a lot of ABBA's members. See, even car tape players are potentially adult content! |
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Katheryne Helendale
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Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,187
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03-24-2009 03:58
From: Patasha Marikh W00t! Nazi card played. We can all go home now. This thread has been Godwined so many times, I've lost count. Unfortunately, there is a certain ideology by one individual running amok in this thread, that so closely parallels the ideology that gave rise to the Third Reich, that it is truly frightening. |
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Screwtape Foulsbane
Registered User
Join date: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 134
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03-24-2009 03:58
What about profiles & picks? I see a lot of adult information there for Role Players, including nude AVs. I don't think LL is going to implement Age Verification for viewing profiles so those people are going to have to sanitize them.
S
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Katheryne Helendale
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Join date: 5 Jun 2008
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03-24-2009 04:12
From: Catherine Cotton Ok I have a legitimate question for the Adult Industry folks posting I have read a whole lot in the past couple of days and I am hearing that a lot of those in the Adult Industry do not want their own continent. I find that a bit surprising. As I would think that if you all were together; there would be some benefits. Topping my list would be; Accessibility. Virtual bar hoping sounds like fun to me Hell that could even be an event clubs could organize. Knowing that your patrons are adults. Or at least that LL has taken steps to protect you against the kids who have lied to get onto the main. (We all know kids are on the grid.) More opportunities within your community; networking/job opportunities. Probably more that I have not thought of. I think it could be new and exciting. Cat ACK sorry it's late The Question; What is the main reason you do not want a continent of your own? The main reason? Well, I see two: The killer will be the lag. A sim can only hold so many avatars before it buckles. Concentrating all of the nightclubs in SL into a single geographical location will have a devastating effect on any particular club's ability to even open, let alone provide any kind of entertainment value. The other reason is that, shut behind the "iron curtain", a substantial percentage of our clientèle will never be able to reach us. Based on my own polling (read: profile-perving), about 75% of a club's typical clientèle are NPOIF. I myself was NPOIF until just recently. We're not the poverty-stricken newbies many people believe we are. Some of my best tippers have been NPOIF. I, in turn, would take that money and spread it around a few clothing, hair, and skin stores, and thus help keep the economy going. By separating us from 75% of our market, LL will remove a very significant player in SL's economy, and the entire grid will suffer - even those who have nothing directly to do with the sex industry in any way. There is also the ugly spectre of censorship and borderline fascism, coupled with real-world examples of culling out the "undesirables" in world history, that have us all bristling. |
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Kara Spengler
Pink Cat
Join date: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,227
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03-24-2009 04:13
Of course they could just make all of mainland no-script, which would solve a lot of problems for them! |
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Neptune Shelman
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Join date: 1 Aug 2008
Posts: 329
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03-24-2009 04:21
From: Blondin Linden
Yes but strip clubs advertise on a theme that is overtly sexual in nature.
From: Minx Eisenhart now see there we have a problem
i dont see it as overtly sexual but a form of art
now Escort Clubs and Sex clubs those are overtly sexual.
Why not Keep Mainland intune with RL as far as these new rules are concerned. if its allowed on Main ST USA its allowed on Mainland whats wrong with that veiw?
i doubt you will find as many opponents to that take on adult content as the one you taking nowyou want to clean up mainland but keep it fun for all users? then allow stip clubs and the like, but have zoning rules, the exterior of such buisness must comply with PG guildelines and have a sign on the building identifing what it is Exactly a bit of common sense mature should not become a completely sterile environment or it might as well all be labelled PG. By all means tame down advertising textures, even have a no touch policy LOL. Strip clubs are not sex clubs nudity is not the same as graphic sexual activity and should not be treated as such, a bit of banter in mature clubs is part of the fun in SL, don't take this away from the mainstream users. |
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Katheryne Helendale
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Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,187
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03-24-2009 04:22
From: Catherine Cotton I was going to edit my post above but I saw your new post and decided just to respond. You asked what is adult. Well this is just my opinion on 2 things; I think it is safe to say that XXXClub owners and Stripper clubs are in the adult industry; I form that opinion from RL. Not a damn thing wrong with that either Cat We're all pretty much in agreement there. But it's all the lighter shades of grey between the strip clubs and the puritan places that is in question. To be honest, one of the things that has been made perfectly clear in this series of threads is that trying to nail down the exact definition of "what is adult" is like trying to nail Jello to the wall! ANYTHING can be considered either adult, violent, or both, in the right circumstances. Conversely, most anything normally associated with "adult entertainment" or extreme violence can be perfectly G-rated in the right circumstances. A defining line simply does not exist. |
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Aeona Barthelmess
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Join date: 25 May 2008
Posts: 13
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03-24-2009 04:22
From: Screwtape Foulsbane What about profiles & picks? I see a lot of adult information there for Role Players, including nude AVs. I don't think LL is going to implement Age Verification for viewing profiles so those people are going to have to sanitize them.
S One of the Lindens (can't remember who) has stated in one of the threads that profiles should abide to PG standards. |
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Jocario Llewellyn
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Join date: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 6
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:C I disapprove
03-24-2009 04:33
This is not a good idea at all. TBH, I am starting to quit SL due to the new rule and really going to to die. And to keep on using and accessing the Adult Content is to Verify?
There's one problem: Not all Adults have jobs
Especially me. :C Like I'm Turning 21 in the end of the month and seeing this ruins my mood at all. Not everyone likes this new rule at all. NOT everyone.
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Neptune Shelman
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Join date: 1 Aug 2008
Posts: 329
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03-24-2009 04:44
From: Katheryne Helendale The main reason? Well, I see two: The killer will be the lag. A sim can only hold so many avatars before it buckles. Concentrating all of the nightclubs in SL into a single geographical location will have a devastating effect on any particular club's ability to even open, let alone provide any kind of entertainment value.. If any club is hogging sim resources on the mainland, then they need more land than they are currently holding, whether due to scripts or avatar numbers. On the mainland any club should have an entire sim if it attracts 40 avatars, otherwise it is taking advantage of other landowners in the sim. Having two of these clubs in a sim f*cking each other up, is not a valid argument. Having said this, Night clubs should not be adult only places even if they have dance poles, because they are not the same as a sex club. Nor am I suggesting all clubs are irresponsible resource hoggers, often responsible owners hold a large amount of land with shops and rental properties etc., which again makes the argument for keeping responsible well run nightclubs in mature areas. Resource allocation is something the Lindens need to look at seperately, whatever happens regarding adult content. |
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Katheryne Helendale
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Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,187
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03-24-2009 04:48
From: Kara Spengler Right, without it in writing (we have Blondin's post, but that may or may not be what they will officially say in the end) and saying it supplants previous policies child avatars will be in potentially-ARable limbo if their family gets moved. Right - we have Blondin's posts for now; but these threads have a mysterious way of disappearing completely off the forum shortly after they've been closed - usually right after the discussed proposal becomes policy or gets tabled for eventual resurrection later on. |
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Windsweptgold Wopat
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Join date: 24 May 2007
Posts: 1,003
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03-24-2009 04:49
From: Catherine Cotton I am not picking on anything; I am honestly just trying to form my own opinions of what I feel is adult content. Obviously now you know I think that sub and dom relationships fall under the adult category. Shrugs I don't know what to say to that other than I find it stimulating in a sexual way. Therefore in my mind it falls under adult content. It is what it is.
Cat Doesn't every relationship fall under an adult category? As for Dom/sub dont confuse D/s with BDSM |
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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03-24-2009 04:50
From: Neptune Shelman If any club is hogging sim resources on the mainland, then they need more land than they are currently holding, whether due to scripts or avatar numbers.
On the mainland any club should have an entire sim if it attracts 40 avatars, otherwise it is taking advantage of other landowners in the sim.
Having two of these clubs in a sim f*cking each other up, is not a valid argument.
Having said this, Night clubs should not be adult only places even if they have dance poles, because they are not the same as a sex club.
Nor am I suggesting all clubs are irresponsible resource hoggers, often responsible owners hold a large amount of land with shops and rental properties etc., which again makes the argument for keeping responsible well run nightclubs in mature areas.
Resource allocation is something the Lindens need to look at seperately, whatever happens regarding adult content. Which is why we hold a sim as it wouldn't be fair on the neighbours when we cram the sim full which we often do
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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03-24-2009 04:52
From: Catherine Cotton Ok I have a legitimate question for the Adult Industry folks posting I have read a whole lot in the past couple of days and I am hearing that a lot of those in the Adult Industry do not want their own continent. I find that a bit surprising. As I would think that if you all were together; there would be some benefits. ... What is the main reason you do not want a continent of your own? I seriously considered cashing in on the adult content sales market, but refrained from offering my items for sale as the initial furor over age verification indicated to me that such content might soon be targeted for censure. I'm very glad now that I didn't invest a lot of time and money in that direction. And while I have elected never to work as a stripper or an escort, I have a LOT of friends who have done so, and I know what their business and their associates are like. There is a world of difference between "not wanting a continent devoted to XXX activities" and "Not wanting to be forced to give up our current land at gunpoint and be driven like cattle to a presumably random and apparently dead flat hunk of terrain on an undeveloped continent where half our customers and employees can not go." Many people who sell or use adult content would be happy with a VOLUNTARY move to a XXX continent, if they got to choose a parcel to their liking, and if setting up a business there didn't force them to get an entirely new staff. Many strippers and escorts are NPOF, doing that sort of work to get established and to get L$ because they don't have or are unwilling to provide credit card info. Those people will be unable to follow a strip club to the new continent to continue being employed by that club. And yes, a lot of the guests at such clubs tend to be anonymous alts who have no payment info on file, or newbies in the same state, looking for a little excitement. There are also a LOT of people who use their land for more than "just a sex business", and who don't want to maintain two seperate parcels in two seperate sims. Perhaps their business model counts on the synergy between the adult activities and the non-adult ones, like a club with a mixed-use mall outside.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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03-24-2009 04:52
From: Nany Kayo The problem is, Second Life has been turned into a strip club. You can make all the outrageous claims you want, but since you can't authenticate any of them you're not going to persuade anyone with them. I have shown SL to my last three bosses, and not one responded by acting as if it was a "strip club", or a disreputable place to be involved in. Another guy I didn't, but I wouldn't have let HIM know I was interested in Warcraft or had a Playstation or played anything but Wii Tennis, because to him any kind of game that doesn't involve exercise is childish. One later said "you know, when you showed me SL I figured it was another dead end technology, but you seem to have picked a winner this time". So the worst feedback I got about SL was that it might be a *technical failure*. As far as I'm concerned, this is NOT ABOUT the "sex industry", this is about the disruption to the fabric of this "dead end technology". |