Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread

No Payment On Information File?

Yes, I know, a curse on all acronyms.

I think I'll start abbreviating them to "PI" and "NPI", since PIU and PIOF are equivalent for all practical purposes.

No Payment On Information File?

Yes, I know, a curse on all acronyms.

I think I'll start abbreviating them to "PI" and "NPI", since PIU and PIOF are equivalent for all practical purposes.
Someone needs to set up a cache of the Linden Comments on these threads.

I think you miss the point totally.....in your eyes, it seems it's business as usual, just on a different Continent....in doesn't take into account or you have brushed it aside as being unimportant...like the logistical problems, the resources problem that lag might induce, the lost of all IBL's which effects their ALL search ranking, the lost of their Mainshop landmarks.......but most importantly are the losses in percentage of their future target audience.

In your world it assumes everyone will verify or place Credit card details. That's not going to happen.....if you visit any given Public Sex area, the vast majority of participants are NPIOF (Yes, FREE accounts that LL have allowed to happen during 2006-9)....it will mean their target audience will shrivel!



Sex, Music and social networking are the 3 biggest draws in SL...you are now going to segregate one of those!

I don't have an Adult business, but i would argue vehemently against segregation of any other given sector here in SL....it could have been Gor, it could have been Child AV's....same principles & arguments apply.

I've known people who are registered as sex offenders, for things that happened when they were barely out of their teens. We're talking about guys who did jail time and aren't even allowed online because they didn't know that their girlfriend's birthday was in November, and theirs was in April. These are, otherwise, just ordinary guys. So this kind of talk makes me a little, oh, you know, uncomfortable.

Hmmm... I've seen a couple of people who are in favor of it without coming across as fundamentalists, and they don't seem to be getting attacked as trolls. In fact, really, there's only one person who seems to consistently get that reaction.
Indeed. That's what this thread is for.

Also that this would set a dangerous precedent for any group in SL. Besides, fair is fair.

I think I like you. Come visit me sometime in SL

Lindens: You want to know our definition of adult content. To get us started (especially since we come from widely different cultures) can you please give us your definition? (or at least the parameters of what definately is and is not adult?)

Hmm, I think I'd disagree with you there Puppet - sure there's been a few heated moments between views, for and against, but virtually all have been resolved amicably (and often the opponents have shared views on the 'way' LL is doing this) as far as I can see from reading all the threads. There's certainly been some strong opinions and some loud challenges, but IMHO there's only been one Resident who has attracted a lot of angry attacks from frequently posting glaringly inciteful posts that have often contained a lot of value judgements about other Residents' lifestyles. One only needs to click their name and work back to when they started. They've had posts removed previously and I've reported them for a bad post - and asked for moderator input, but as far as I know they are still able to post.

Watch this space

I agree - we do need to hear something about definitions - Residents here have been discussing this intelligently for days and a lot of people, both in support or against the changes (either partial or entire) have put a lot of time and energy into the discussion. That said, I'm not sure that anyone has heard anything concrete from Linden Lab on the topic and when they have been questioned about the language and terminology of definitions, or to reply to tricky questions about certain situations, on the whole, again IMHO, we've not heard anything.

Personally, I think it does matter if we want it or not - even though I'm not optimistic of any change to policy (aside from the finer details of definition). My feeling is that, regardless of the fact that most of my accounts work in the adult sex industry here (for fun, I might add), I strongly believe that it's a very slippery slope from then on regarding community fragmentation (a community which on the whole has been mature so far regarding tolerance of others). So I think I'll fight on

See, right here is the problem. The term 'adult' is employed with an American bias to mean 'pornographic', but in the rest of the world, the term 'adult' does not equal 'pornographic'. The very language used in this discussion is biased toward a California-centric view of the world.

funy how everyother person there speaking gave their RL name too
except NannyFanny, if its really representing all tribes ( Mostly likely the ones in her lil distored head) i would of belived it would of used its real name for contact info for the other deligates.

I wonder how some of the Jewish comunity would feel about this if they knew?

Lacking any clear Linden response to this discussion, I don't see how hashing it out among ourselves can be of any further use. I wish to formally call for a Linden Response to the issues raised by their customers in this thread and the preceeding threads. In particular:

1: The Lindens started this with an assertation that "Based on our research, we estimate that around 2-4% of content on the mainland would be considered Adult according to our current thinking on defining that. For all of Second Life, our content research shows it is around 5%. In other words, 95% of Second Life either mature or PG."

Please back this assertation up with a clear description of the methodology and standards used to obtain these percentage figures. None of your residents in this discussion so far seem able to validate this assertation. The number appears to be randomly chosen, and no more than wishful thinking on LL's part. Most of the residents in this thread assert that these numbers are impossibly low. Since the LL decision to proceed seems based on the assertation that this only affects a small percentage of the resident population, this serioisly needs to be validated, or the entire plan is questionable at best.

2: The Lindens posted an initial "Maturity Ratings FAQ" that was rapidly shot down in flames as being so broad that 100% of erotic content, anywhere, even in a private island sim with a restricted access list, would be forced to flag as "Adult Content". That FAQ has since been removed, and the link to it was even edited out of the original blog post.

Please provide the current working definition of "Adult Content" that Linden Lab is using at this time. Even if it is clearly labeled as a rough draft, subject to later revision. We can not provide constructive suggestions against a hidden agenda with hidden goals. We can not determine who this truly affects when LL refuses to tell us the criteria for selection.

Let's start with that, at least, Can some Linden PLEASE be brave enough and responsible enough to reply to those two critical points?

Fair enough, I was just reflecting the language LL used in their blog. Of course, that just shows how slippery defining what objectionable content (or whatever words you want to use) in different cultures can be!

Lindens: again, can you give us examples of what you plan will definately be expelled and what will definately stay so we have a starting point in working out where the line is?

A few comments from someone that used to make and sell adult animations and does happen to be part native.

First off myself and many native people I know find the term "Indian" offensive. Why should we accept a name slapped on us by by a lost European map maker? (Notice I did not say it offended ALL Native people). For the record the woman claiming to represent ALL Native people in SL does NOT represent me or my family. She makes the assumption that we need or want representation. I can speak for myself Thank You.

Now on to the topic in point in this thread. I got out of the adult business when the first Age Verification crap hit the fan. I saw then that this was going to be one of those impossible to define adequately situations. One persons PG is another persons adult. We can see that very clearly just reading these many threads on the subject.

A simple checkbox that I am over 18 has held up repeatedly as adequate verification for hardcore porn sites it should be sufficient for SL.

If LL really wants the "objectionable material" segregated then they will have to get rid of all the exceptions. In other words NO you cant have a sex bed in your private home. The ability to cam into anywhere on the mainland makes the adult content viewable by anyone.And truthfully I think that is coming. This move to relocate the business side of it is just the second step. A very wise preacher once told me if you go to a new church and you want the piano moved to the other side of the isle you move it one inch at a time. Folks don't get near so bent about the change. Why second not first? The first step was hiring aristotle and putting the verification in place. Now they are going to force move adult businesses. Next we will have to flag our homes (read banlines) if we have anything on the property others find objectionable which will cause the ban line riots to flare again. This will allow LL to say we are solving the ban line issue you guys gotta move too. Before we know it we will have a completely sanitized main grid and an adult continent that guess what? looks just like the main grid does now. Why? because you can't pin down what is adult.

I am Gay. I don't hide it and I refuse to be ashamed of it. My RL/SL hubby and I openly cuddle and dance together in public in SL and in RL. Yeah we catch alot of crap for it as there is a fair chunck of people in both RL and SL that think seeing 2 men hold hands is obscene and broadly offensive. If LL takes the most restrictive definition (as they inevitably will have to long run, once they start down this road), we will have to move to the adult continent or face AR's just sitting on a cuddle cushion in our own home. At that point I will have to seriously reconsider my place in SL.

The facts are that a concrete definition cannot be made. Witch hunts will happen. Ars will be filed. People who honestly thought they were living within the bounds of the new policies will get nailed in the process. And alot of people will expend a great deal of effort on ne wbuilds, land, products, advertising, and emotional upset to land right back where we are now on a mainland continent thats called an adult continent but is identical to the old mainland.

LL stopped listening on the 2nd day of these threads. They are letting us vent now. I strongly suspect the decisions have already been been made and were made before the threads were opened. This is thier way of moving that piano one inch at a time. Yeah I sound really pessimistic but near 5 years of watching how things get done around here will tend to do that to you.

Of course they would.

There is a double standard in place in modern society, Nany. You're right...a "respectable" person must be *seen* to be respectable and not engage in any of that dirty, sexy, degenerate stuff. This is the standard tacitly accepted as "public morals" or "What People Think".

But guess what? Nearly everybody breaks this unwritten code. Congressmen hire call girls, or have sex with their interns. Faithful husbands buy and keep a stash of porn in their basement workshop. Businessmen (and women) go to conventions and hire prostitutes, or have sex with each other, or at least go out to a strip club. "Society" will punish you if you get caught...but that doesn't stop people from doing it, over and over and over.

Read back a few pages and look at all the RL sex clubs and strip joints people have mentioned. How do you think all of them stay in business? BECAUSE THERE IS A MARKET FOR THEM. It's not just a few dirty degenerates. Almost everyone dips a toe into the Bazaar of the Erotic once in a while, and a lot of people do it often.

SL (thank gods!) has, up until now, been a little more honest about this than most RL societies. Sex and eroticism (and violence) has been a little more visible. I'm sorry if that offends you...but you know what? You're seeing a clearer picture of humanity here than you will in a casual stroll down Main Street. This is How People Really Are. We have (most of us, to a greater or lesser degree) a dark side. I'm not suggesting you celebrate that, or embrace it with open arms. But anyone who doesn't understand this, or acknowledge it, has a great big blind spot in their understanding of both themselves and their fellow human beings.

I see a lot being done to "protect" the rights of those who do not want to see "adult content" in SL, but what is being done to protect those who want to see it, are involved in it some way already, or may want to be involved in it somewhere down the road? This seems to be a one way street, and the ones who are getting the kid glove treatment are the few who are saying they don't want to see it. I think you are going about this the wrong way. I say move them to a sim where they will not have to view it, and restrict their movement around SL so they only view the things they want to see, leave the rest of us who enjoy having the variety available to us alone.

I am on a private sim, and I have to fight daily with the fear that some child will come in to my sim on an adult avi, such as what happened only yesterday. She said her adult partner got her the account. So, your idea of age verification is not going to work if this is going on. You see, anyone who has the information can technically log in on an adult age verified account and wander around anywhere they want to. I guess you didn't factor this in your little scheme yet. This girl was 17, and was sitting around my sex place with adult men who were "naked" talking on voice and acting like she belonged there, that is until she started telling the guy she was sitting with, who was trying to get her to have sex with him by the way, that she had to go back to school tomorrow..I asked her what she meant and she happily answered I'm a senior in high school, and she was 17. I immediately ejected and banned her, but she said her partner opened the account for her so who is more at fault? I filed an AR on her, but what's to stop it from happening again?

Age verification, moving everything to "adult content" areas is not going to fix your problem. It's only going to make things worse. You're going to lose a lot of people whose business is based on adult content, and then all you'll be left with are the puritans who caused this furor to begin with. You can't stop sex, it is in almost every aspect of the world we live in. You are censoring us and our freedom and right to express ourselves, which goes against our constitutional rights as US citizens, not to mention the rights of those who live in countries who don't have the limitations we have set upon us in the US by the same puritans who complain about everything in RL.

Why you insist on placating the few and disregarding the many is beyond me. I think you may want to rethink your plans here, before you do lose a lot of people who bring you a lot of money every day/week/month/year.

Just sign me
Annoyed

If you include Lap dancing clubs then there was one for about 8 months on the high street of my Local town. It closed to lack of interest I believe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/3637110.stm

Admittedly not in America ^^

I agree with that 100%. We should have motivations on the table...and discuss THEM first. Has someone threatened legal action? Is some nanny state group up in arms? Or is LL's management just tired of hearing, "Second Life? Oh, that's that online thing where you go for cartoon sex, isn't it?"

I would encourage LL to fight against the first two. I myself am a little tired of hearing the last one...and so I think it is most likely an image problem.

What LL is doing here has already been given to the press, and favorable articles are beginning to appear, of the "Second Life Cleans Up Its Act" sort.

And that's fine, I applaud, I want to see more people coming here too.

But, as we have made clear over and over again in thousands of posts, LL is going about this in the wrong way. They could have the exact same good press, and the exact same improvement in their image, if they would adopt some of the more sensible suggestions from the Residents...such as a PG continent, with voluntary relocation. Such as age verification that WORKS, both to identify and to protect personal info. Such as a Search that REALLY filters content effectively. Such as adult content visibility options built into the viewer.

The two biggest mistakes LL is making are

1) trying to "draw a line" and define "Adult" content. That, as I and many others have said, is an impossibility because any such definition is subjective. It also leads to "definition creep", classifying more and more content as undesirable, and it stifles freedom of expression and creativity, keystones of the SL experience.

2) forced relocations. This will upset many, many people, no matter how carefully it is handled. It will also depress land values in two ways. "Mature" land will now have restrictions it did not previously have, reducing its perceived value, and there will be another continent's worth of land that must be occupied.

Good press is fine. But you must not forget your existing customer base. Good press at the expense of satisfied customers is a fool's game from a business perspective, because satisfied customers pay the bills, and will continue to pay the bills tomorrow. Good press MIGHT bring in some more business, or it may not. Don't forget the bird in the hand, LL.

Lindens: What about groups that are obviously mature by either their names or descriptions?

No way!?!? really?? Bugs is my life teacher, my sensei, my yoda. Well if 'they' get him I can always fall back on Wiley Coyote. hehe

Here ya go: /327/00/311715/1.html. Not exactly a cache but close enough. Meade also put a link to that thread in post #2 of this thread, to make it easier to track down..

It is possible that their definition of "adult" and "private home" really does meet this test, but they have been too vague in their definitions. Which does lead in to your second question: these are really two sides of the same question.

How about it, Blondin?

Hey, LL.

Here's a suggestion that should be EASY to implement.

You know how we've been saying that a kid could have access to SL? It doesn't have to be Johnny stealing Mom's credit card and setting up an account you know. It could be that Johnny just goes to Mom's computer, opens her SL viewer, and runs it.

Right now, it's as easy as two mouse clicks. Click the desktop shortcut, and then, IF THE USER HAS CHECKED THE 'REMEMBER MY PASSWORD' BOX, just click the Log In button.

Johnny doesn't need a credit card, he doesn't need a password. He just needs some time alone on Mom's computer, and a Mom who opts for convenience over security.

So here's my little suggestion: ELIMINATE THE REMEMBER MY PASSWORD OPTION ON THE VIEWER LOG IN SCREEN.

Thank you, thank you. No praise necessary, just forgive my tier for next month.

And the whole problem just will - vanish - if LL chooses to simply create the new PG Only continent instead of ripping everyone else up and trying to play Morality Cops.

All new residents appear in the new PG welcome center on the new continent.
All new residents cannot go to the rest of the mainland without verifying.
Nothing naughty at all is permitted there - not even sexbeds in homes.
It'll be easy to keep clean - anyone seeing anything risque will report it.
Businesses will love their new environs.
Teens can even be brought in without threat of lawsuit.
Ursula will grow. More tier comes in.
Mainland will start growing again as new people seek other interests. More tier comes in.
Public image will improve as reporters coming in for the day will find nothing titillating.

Or you can continue with this idiotic pogrom, and flush everything you've built down the virtual toilet.