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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread

Blue Linden
There For You
Join date: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 3,311
03-17-2009 13:17
As dialog on the subject has lessened, we're redirecting the conversation here from the other threads so that we won't miss anyone's contributions. Please do feel free to continue the discussion on Adult Content changes here.
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
03-17-2009 13:19
From: Blue Linden
As dialog on the subject has lessened, we're redirecting the conversation here from the other threads so that we won't miss anyone's contributions. Please do feel free to continue the discussion on Adult Content changes here.

Er.. It lessened because y'all locked the other threads! :P

/me drags herself back on-topic and links to some RA threads...

"Followon to adult content threads: technical problems?" /327/2b/312166/1.html

"Links to Linden posts.." /327/00/311715/1.html

"...Adult Content threads all locked?" /327/da/312167/1.html

"Marketing Second Life" /341/70/312214/1.html

Sindy's traffic scanner that shows payment stats, free at: https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=1339636 (she says she's submitted the source to the script library here in the forums but I don't see it yet..)

Officalish wiki page: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Adult_Content_Forum_Transcript
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Blue Linden
There For You
Join date: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 3,311
03-17-2009 13:32
Sorry for the delay guys!
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Minx Eisenhart
~Simply Orgasmic~
Join date: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 130
word filters?
03-17-2009 13:33
My biggest concern over this is advertising,
I know word filtering will have to be used. but my question is how? How will even educational Parcels and other institutes be able to say that they are holding a monthy Sex Ed. surmom. or other issues along those lines, surport groups, things like that that need to use words that im sure will get picked apart by the sensors.

On a personal note my store will be just fine left as mature, I simply sell lingerie, skins and other forms of naughty apperal. But the name of my store "Simply Orgasmic" Im sure will set off the word filters. so do i have to either change my branded name, or move to othe Adult continet?
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Phoenix Welles
Multiple Avatar Disorder
Join date: 6 Jan 2007
Posts: 111
03-17-2009 13:35
I'm hoping by now that there is a FAQ just on a lot of the questions that came up over the weekend that you may have answered.

Does an updated FAQ for this transition exist, and if so may we have a link?
Kalderi Tomsen
Nomad Extraordinaire!
Join date: 10 May 2007
Posts: 888
03-17-2009 13:40
My biggest concerns are:

1. Getting the definition of Adult to the point where it is workable and not ambiguous and supported by the whole of the LL team. There has been more hashing around on the threads due to misconceptions about this than I think you need.

2. Having a discussion about exactly how businesses that are going to be moved will be moved. In particular, will there be an automatic move, how comparable will the new land be (terraforming, water access, etc), how will the search rankings be carried over, how will profile picks be moved for the new business. These are all vital issues that are legitimately concerning quite a few residents.

I'll leave out the whole debate about whether this is a good thing or not.... I'm sure others will be providing that....
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
03-17-2009 13:41
My question is... where are you going to take the cue for enforcement from? Blondin Linden, who has made some well thought out and reasonable answers to some tricky questions, or the people who suspended Carl Metropolitan?
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
03-17-2009 13:47
From: Argent Stonecutter
...suspended Carl Metropolitan?

Whoever did that really needs a talking to. Really, really.
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Lias Leandros
mainlander
Join date: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 3,458
03-17-2009 14:13
The adult content providers could not loose so much business if Linden Lab just makes age verification part of the registration process. Make it as seamless as possible and i won't be such a big deal. If peopl ign up and then are banned from teleporting to half the paces they want to explore - I believe that will cause more damage than good for LL and all of the customer base.


.
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Blondin Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 2 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
03-17-2009 14:31
Welcome Back everyone :-) Hope we had a restful wknd!

@ Minx: Advertising and the filtering of key search words will be tricky indeed and you bring up a good point. Some words, though seemingly adult, may have other uses. For example, the word breast would cause an issue for those who educate or deal with issues of breast cancer. It's tricky - we know. I personally wonder how Google Safe Search does it. Anyone know?
As for your store name - what would be easier? Changing the name or moving?

@Phoenix: There isn't a public list yet, but we've been keeping tack of the central issues and attempting to answer them. Quite honestly though, we don't have all the answers yet and still need some time on HOW to address them. But we'll let you know as soon as something comes up.

@Kalderi : 1) I hope so too! 2) We are still coming up with ideas and tossing them back and forth. Nothing solid yet but rest assured that anything we come up with will definitely be announced and open for discussion.

@Argent: Who watches the watchmen right? Sorry for the reference, but I just saw it over the wknd on IMAX :-) I know Carl M both in Linden life and in an alt life. I'm not aware of what happened with him.

@Lias - That's an interesting idea and made my list of common themes from the prior posts. Believe it or not, only a minority of content inworld is really Adult (i.e. explicitly sexual or violent), so it may be less disruptive to the community and reg process to require account verification for those who wish to access this type of content.
Ian Undercroft
Registered User
Join date: 3 Nov 2007
Posts: 86
03-17-2009 14:45
My impression is that the threshold beyond which something may become unacceptable for the purposes of PG rating is set quite low. I've no problem with that. However, so that no offence is caused, as an estate owner, I would like a resident to have the option to classify himself PG and myself as an estate owner the option of excluding such a person from my land.

In relation to the threshold between adult and mature, I think the definition is difficult because it all depends on context. Isn't the test whether in its particular context the item or activity would be unduly offensive to a reasonable, mature resident? For example, a sex bed in the open adjacent to a linden highway would applying that test be unduly offensive whereas a sex bed tucked away elsewhere on land would not.
Minx Eisenhart
~Simply Orgasmic~
Join date: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 130
03-17-2009 14:46
Is it Fesible too give adult merchants and buisness on the main grid say Height Zoning?
they have to be so many meters up
away from pyting eyes to keep the ground level looking Pg? and mprove the search engines to better filter questionalbe words?
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Dont forget to vist my store for all your Naughty lil needs!!!!

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TLMars Bookmite
FemDom Artist
Join date: 6 Aug 2008
Posts: 35
03-17-2009 15:03
Hi Blondin,

My question is very straight forward since I know because of the nature of my work that I will be one of those that will have to relocate. Whatever lines you all end up ultimately drawing, my work will fall on the "Adult" side of things because I have both graphic sex and violence depicted together in my work.

You all will certainly have your hands full with those that have long established businesses and builds that will be tricky to move etc.. I only have a small $25 tier. My business is new and so my risk for loss is not much if anything. Rebuilding isn't a big stress because one location isn't even completed - I was planning changes anyway. Plus I am flexable about any location - as long as I have a protected road like I paid for so I can cruise around in my car and you all don't stick me in the snow, I'm good to go. I'd just rather allow my fellow new neighbors get the attention from LL that they have earned and deserve.

Since you have said that we will not have to pay & that you want to work with us, can those of us who know that we will have to move simply go ahead and volunteer to go as soon as you all are ready to start?

Thanks so much.
Terri Lynn
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Biman Dastardly
Registered User
Join date: 3 Jan 2008
Posts: 2
Thanks for Nothing!
03-17-2009 15:05
Well, it never fails, someone comes up with a GREAT idea, and then messes with it until it turns to crap. Why make SL exactly like RL? The appeal here is to have a place where anything goes. If you don't like something just move on... until you find something that you like.

I never buy land that isn't in a Mature sim, so why should I penalized because I have adult content on my land? That is the reason that I bought the land in the first place. I have tried to verify my age and the process did not work. I have a money tree on my land and the AV's coming to it aren't registered members of SL, and wouldn't know how to get age verified even if they wanted to. What about people who only have basic accounts?

Finally, what is Adult content anyway? How are you going to determine that? This really sucks!
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
03-17-2009 15:08
From: Blondin Linden

@Argent: Who watches the watchmen right? Sorry for the reference, but I just saw it over the wknd on IMAX :-) I know Carl M both in Linden life and in an alt life. I'm not aware of what happened with him.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" is a bit Juvenal*, but that's OK. :)

He got suspended (albeit only for an hour) because an unspecified piece of RL art in a PG region exposed a nipple. There have been other cases where RL museum works that are exposed to the General public in museums have been treated as Mature... in completely innocent contexts.

Now... between Jasper Rosewood and my Coonspiracy group we own most of Noonkkot sim. The dress code is fur, though there's no official sexual poseballs anywhere in our parcels (but we have set no policy one way or another on the subject, and I don't sweep for them or anything). I would like to know whether we should see about transferring lock, stock, and attachment to Ursula or not.

* I couldn't resist the pun. Sorry. No, I'm not sorry. I'm incorrigible. You incorriged me.
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Bhakta Thor
Escape from RL
Join date: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 291
depressed in SL
03-17-2009 15:27
From: Phoenix Welles
I'm hoping by now that there is a FAQ just on a lot of the questions that came up over the weekend that you may have answered.

Does an updated FAQ for this transition exist, and if so may we have a link?


I'm still just depressed about the whole thing. I hate being depressed in SL. I just wander aimlessly around my land not knowing what to do. I may have to have Second Life therapy over this, but it will definitely have to be adult therapy.

I am considering starting a sex therapy clinic on my land for all of the disturbed adults that have to move. I hope that will qualify me for some really nice piece of property in the new Continent. I can be an adult colonist

BT
Lotte Twilight
Registered User
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 5
oh an unlocked thread!
03-17-2009 15:27
Just wanted to chime in on this issue because it makes or breaks my "second life" how this is handled.

I own an adult entertainment business (outside of SL) and have been in SL since 2/2004. Have owned a chunk of mainland for a long time now and dutifully pay for it each month although I rarely login or use it anymore because I have plans to use it when it makes sense for my business. I also use it to build and hang out for personal use so it's very much a "mixed use" between personal and business. It's flanked on two sides by protected linden roads and is on elevated land with a clear, perfect waterfront view. Having been a long-time resident on a mature parcel I strongly resent being informed that displaying my creative work in my build (which focuses almost exclusively on erotic imagery) would forcibly oust me from my land.

The answer here is better privacy controls so that land owners can restrict looky-loos until someone has agreed to a TOS pop-up and accepted that they are entering and explicit parcel. No need to relocate people, just improve the privacy features for mainland parcels.

I'm all for responsible adult content publishing (something SL hasn't always taken seriously). I don't mind restrictions but relocating people from the land they invested in and enjoy is not a good solution. It really doesn't solve anything since what they really need is the ability to let people be more informed about content in private parcels via a sensible ratings system (ESRB has an excellent one with content descriptors that could be a good model for an SL self-rating system which could be overridden by moderators as needed).

Also, Linden Lab needs to treat its customers a lot better. I first heard of this new, jarring change last night and when I tried to come post on the forums, all threads were locked. I need to know how this change will affect my land holdings (they just expect us to keep paying each month not knowing if our build is just going to be unceremoniously evicted to some random parcel? or will we have to SELL our land at the horrid current market rates and buy new land in the porn ghetto??). So I called customer service and the hapless guy told me to... file on JIRA. So I did post my question there. And guess what response I got? None. Except that Alexa Linden "resolved" my issue by labeling it "misfiled." Maybe they should inform their phone support staff not to tell customers to post there then.

This is the service I get after I'm a premium land-holding member in SL for 5 years??? SL is a wonderful product and it's a shame that it is going to come apart like this. I had hoped the "child av sex" thing a couple years ago would have shed light on the real issue in SL: lack of real privacy (everything is PUBLIC) and lack of content tagging/filtering so people can effectively seek or avoid content as needed. Instead what did SL do then? They implemented some vague, unenforceable, puritanical, and completely knee-jerk policy mumbo jumbo that did NOTHING to protect anyone from taboo adult content on the grid while at the same time creating an ignorant fervor in the community that made both sexual and nonsexual age players into second class citizens. So here we are again staring down the barrel of a similar policy change only this time it's all explicit or extreme nudity, sex, and violence.

You can keep dividing people, Linden Lab, or you can design privacy and content control systems that let people enjoy SL united, even on the mainland. Consult with some creative people with virtual world experience and maybe you will get different answers. Web sites and text based communities/contents are NOT comparable to real-time virtual worlds. Information architecture and taxonomy to divvy up flat web content will not work in SL because you're selling experiences to complex multi-dimensional people. You're not selling static porn pics or adult products that can be neatly categorized in the "back room" so please take a more holistic look at your customers. Those same educators, business people, and families asking for more content controls during their non-sexual SL time are people who are going to be using alts to get freaky on the grid after hours. Seriously, we are not two distinct groups. I'm a mom, a business person, an artist who happens to work with erotic themes, and a game developer who doesn't want giant cocks hitting me in the face if I go to see someone give a business related presentation in SL. I have different roles in my first life and my second life and it would be super keen if I was allowed to be my complete self on my own land in SL (with privacy controls to keep the icky neuters out).

Thanks for hearing me out. I still care enough about SL that this matters. They are setting a powerful example for virtual world services. Sex and nudity are wonderful parts of everyday life, not just something in a red light district. :mad:
Kokoro Fasching
Pixie Dust and Sugar
Join date: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 949
03-17-2009 15:35
From: Blondin Linden


@ Minx: Advertising and the filtering of key search words will be tricky indeed and you bring up a good point. Some words, though seemingly adult, may have other uses. For example, the word breast would cause an issue for those who educate or deal with issues of breast cancer. It's tricky - we know. I personally wonder how Google Safe Search does it. Anyone know?
As for your store name - what would be easier? Changing the name or moving?



Why would that word be considered 'Adult'? Even with Google safesearch turned on, that word is allowed as long as it does not link to a Adult/Explicit site. This is the problem - what words would be considered truly Explicit?

Here is what Google says about their SafeSearch:

From: Google

Many Google users prefer not to have adult sites included in their search results. Google's SafeSearch screens for sites that contain this type of information and eliminates them from search results. While no filter is 100% accurate, Google's filter uses advanced proprietary technology that checks keywords and phrases, URLs and Open Directory categories. When SafeSearch is turned on, sites and web pages containing pornography and explicit sexual content are blocked from search results. Google strives to keep the filtering information as current and comprehensive as possible through continual crawling of the Web and by incorporating updates from user suggestions. If you find sites that contain offensive content in your results, even with SafeSearch activated, please http://www.google.com/support/bin/request.py?form_type=user&stage=fm&user_type=user&contact_type=dissatisfied"]http://www.google.com/support/bin/request.py?form_type=user&stage=fm&user_type=user&contact_type=dissatisfied"]contact us and we will investigate it. If your website appears to be filtered by SafeSearch and you do not believe that it should be, please write to the same address as well.


[/url][/url]

So since you are using a Google backend search device, you could use their SafeSearch properties also, but populated with SLURLS of 'Adult' flagged parcels as a start - so if someone searched for DOG, and a return was linked to a 'Adult' flagged SLURL, it would not show. Having a link to report results that was 'Adult' then could be reviewed, and if the parcel or item was due to be flagged 'Adult' and wasn't, you would contact the resident, have them flag it, and then it would no longer show in the non 'Adult' searches.

This would solve a huge portion of the problems people are seeing currently, then you could begin to work on the keyword spamming and the like.
Tooly Kanarek
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
03-17-2009 15:45
EXACTLY Biman!!!!

We don't come here for a RL experience, we come to live a SECOND life where you can experience things and enjoy things that you wouldn't normally be able to, or be comfortable with in RL.

Why penalise the majority to "protect" the interests of a minority puritans. That is exactly what is going wrong with the world in RL these days!

Nobody is forcing anyone to play this game, or to visit mature/adult areas. If you don't like what you see move on. Go play a cute, cuddly & boring game that is designed specifically for kids or wowzers (which I doubt that many would do).

I feel the only censorship required is to have maybe an additional "adult" flag for sims and then it should be up to the people that don't like mature/adult content to opt out of visiting those places.

The puritans are the ones with the problem, so the onus is on them to control THEIR activities, not the rest of us normal, well adjusted, fun loving residents.

ps. If some sort of age verification does get implemented that requires me to provide personal details or credit card info on the Net, it's goodbye SL. I'll find somewhere else to enjoy myself that doesn't seek to impose standards on me that I don't agree with.
Vorren Voltaire
General Contractor
Join date: 4 Jul 2006
Posts: 78
Welcome back...now Right into the questions!
03-17-2009 16:07
welcome back, to all Linden Labs crew that managed to read the 3000+ posts since the topic was opened...congratulations!

The burning question I have (and I think most people have) is about the process of if and when they will be relocating to the new continent.
Is there an ETA for when residents will know if they are on the brown bag list?
How long will parcel owners have to make the move after notification and what will be the process involved in choosing location?
Is that process still open for discussion?


Glad to see this dialog is opened again! I'm sure that I'm not the only one with a ton of questions and suggestions, and I don't envy the task of trying to keep up with them all.
Vorren Voltaire
General Contractor
Join date: 4 Jul 2006
Posts: 78
03-17-2009 16:13
From: Blondin Linden
Welcome Back everyone :-) Hope we had a restful wknd!

@ Minx: Advertising and the filtering of key search words will be tricky indeed and you bring up a good point. Some words, though seemingly adult, may have other uses. For example, the word breast would cause an issue for those who educate or deal with issues of breast cancer. It's tricky - we know. I personally wonder how Google Safe Search does it. Anyone know?
As for your store name - what would be easier? Changing the name or moving?



What about combination of certain keywords for some cases? Like "Birds" would be safe and "Bees" would be safe, but if they appear together in a description or in combination with other words they would be blocked. Is that technically possible?
Amaterasu Cinquetti
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 70
Explanation needed?
03-17-2009 16:20
I was directed to these Forum posts by friends who hoped I may get answers about the 2 emails I just received. But with several locked threads of countless posts I am not even sure where to start reading, so I will just post the gist of the emails here.

I have 2 premium accounts that have been in SL and owned land on the mainland since early 2005. Pretty much the same people have also always owned land in my sim. Now I am not sure what is being considered Adult content, but I am darn sure I don't have it. My land consists of a series of platforms all with grottoes, waterfall, gazebos, and plants. And there is 3 danceballs out on one of those platforms. Anyone that wishes is welcome to come look for themselves to see if it is Adult content.

But yesterday I received emails on both my premium accounts giving me 7 days to Age verify using "a legible copy of a
government-issued identification document (state ID, driver's license, passport, military ID, birth certificate) that clearly includes both your name and date of birth. This is the only type of identification acceptable for establishing age eligibility."
And that both my accounts have been frozen until I do. If not received within 7 days my accounts will be discontinued.

Can anyone explain why I am being coerced in such a way to provide information that 1. I don't have, and 2. is illegal for me to send outside my country, and 3. is for something ie. "adult material" that I don't use ?

From what I understood if we already had a credit card on record that was enough? Yet I have been paying around $80USD a month from mine for a long time, and that is not enough?

Sorry for the long post, but I am at a loss here about why I am being forced to verify.
Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
03-17-2009 16:26
Hey Lindens! So, I'm curious: let's say I owned a fairly successful internet porn or violence-related business, and had decided not to enter virtual worlds because of potential lawsuits. Now I see that you're setting up a guaranteed adult zone; would LL welcome the arrival of truly professional sex and violence businesses/games in SL's adult zones?

I would think that adding 3D "booth" action to one's internet video/photo/chat room site would be a big win for medium-sized porn sites! Stream the videos into SL, make voice hookers available with fabulous 3D avies, sell those services cheaper than webcam encounters because they're piloted by housewives wearing sweats in their 60's who need a little extra cash ...
.
ASCIIrider Hailey
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jun 2005
Posts: 78
03-17-2009 16:27
From: Minx Eisenhart
Is it Fesible too give adult merchants and buisness on the main grid say Height Zoning?
they have to be so many meters up
away from pyting eyes to keep the ground level looking Pg? and mprove the search engines to better filter questionalbe words?


Only thing I see withthis is some people who have adult content have paid a lot for nice oceanside and landscaped plots. You put a height restriction in and well what's the point of having the land looking nice.

If the Mature Content area comes in effect, will LL let people transfer to a similar plot?
Jack Abraham
Lantern By Day
Join date: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 113
03-17-2009 16:37
I think Linden Lab is taking the fundamentally wrong approach here, but since the code is apparently already on the beta grid, I find it pretty unlikely we'll be listened to.

As others have said, SL needs real privacy controls. Breaking the continuity of the in-world experience is one thing, but continuity does not require the ability to move your cam absolutely anywhere. There are a couple of good proposals for producing truly private areas on a parcel. I would also propose that the camera should honor ban lines and related barriers, and not enter a parcel where the avatar could not go, but I defer to others on the technical feasibility of this.

That done, the Lab needs to do whatever it deems necessary to ensure that we can rely on there being no one under legal age in Second Life. It is represented to us that anyone on the main grid is able, under US law, to view sexually explicit content. Needless to say, features tied to this need more reliably than they currently do.

That done, implement preferences on the user's side that will effectively ban them from a parcel (not region) flagged as having content they may not wish to view. (I'd personally label the flags "free speech zone" for the parcel and "censor my content" for the client, but I'm a zealot.)

That said, the fact that the code is already on he beta grid suggests to me that we're debating the color of the paint on the locomotive coming our way.
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