Exploitation by Clubs of SL Prostitutes

definitely agree with that last part...
I can't judge about the deal they are getting....no one ever offered me that specific kind of deal...
but why not...start a dancers/ escort union *looking to Ulrika* - seriously...if thats the case....then they should get together and set prices ... no dancers/escorts...no dwell....kinda seems like a feasible attempt

Heh, I was thinking about Ulrika wanting to post in this thread, but didn't want to utter her name, lol! j/k

Az, I agree. There's no reason someone couldn't start a dancers and escorts union in SL.
I love the idea that they'd be able to have strikes against the more sleazeball club owners.

The deeper one sinks in, the harder it may be to get out. Like "leaving the family". In any one of a number of archetypical rock-n-roll-party movies, there is a point where the main characters are wasted on a couch or a chair or perhaps on the floor, groaning tiresomely and perhaps intoxicated and/or flat-out drugged. One character bemoans to the others:


"I remember when this used to be fun."


Sometimes, a flashback sequence follows. And there are some painful emotions that come out of this; maybe a twinge of nostalgia for "the good old days" when it was about work AND play. And about how the original intent, the original spirit and motivating passion -- a spark -- for doing what you do, has been lost.

In any case, concerning what is at hand, I have likened it to a buffet before and will do it again: it's good to be aware of all the dishes available to you, all the possibilities, before making your selections and chowing down. The right food for you can leave you satisfyingly full, while too much junk will clog your arteries and make you feel more bloated than an inflatable whale in the springtime.

I do not want any of my fellow avatars, especially newcomers, to feel pressured into snap decisions or to join groups they don't want to. It is important, to paraphrase Harlan Ellison, to have a right to an informed opinion and to keep the richness, the spectrum of everything SL has to offer, in mind.

Safe, sane, and consensual.

Well there are good and negative points about a union. They are good because it does cut down on the abuse and negative treatment a lot of dancers/escorts deal with on a daily basis. I recall my newbie days when the only way to make linden was as a dancer. I didnt know scripting or how to build. The only advice I got was "oh you need linden go be a dancer or escort". I became a dancer. I didnt go the escort route because I saw of the way they were treated. As much as there is a negative association with escorts and they frowned upon there are people who want to work as an escort. Just because they do, does not give their employer the right to exploit them. A union will help but to what extent. You have owners who won't even care or wont hire if the av is in a union and thus the person is left with no income. When I made the Edge, I set certain rules to keep dancers and escorts happy, because they are one of the keys to a good club. Many other clubs have used my notecards and advice in their own clubs and I am happy to see that happening. No matter if there is a union or not, there will always be people who get off by degrading others and so there will be money to be made and people to do the work. In the end the av/person will always have the right to say yes or no to a situation. The limits in the game are set by you. I have seen an escort get a guy to give her thousands of linden so she didnt have to work as an escort, think about it did she really have to work as an escort or did she just get a lot of linden for being smart?

Just say no to drama

(and hypocrites)

Hello all! Was asked to come here and comment. So here's my two lindens. Escorting, like any other service in SL, is provided by people. There is a demand for it, so there will be a service for it. It's like clothes. People always want new clothes. In my time of scorting, I've been asked to read fairytales down to sitting there for 10 or so minutes letting the customer do thier bussiness while watching the anim balls. For those who know me, know my price. Do I escort cause I have to? no. I enjoy it. The money isn't an issue. am I exploiting the customers? I let those who are interested in me know that I try to provide a high quality service.

Now for those who have a jaded view on cybersex, i'm not one to tell you it's wrong. But for those who do enjoy it, that's thier thing. Some like to built cars, others like to make clothes. Escorts like myself enjoy using our story telling ability.

Your right, there are some escorts out there that do the whole "Ohh ahh, do it to me" routine. But there are those of us that do try to provide an interactive experience. If they are happy afterwords, then my job is done.

As for regulations, I do think there should be a better system of picking and regulating escorts. Prices vary from club to club and from person to person. But ultimatly, it's the club owners responsibility if they want to offer a poor service or a quality service.

Anyways, sorry for the rant. Take care.

What's drama about this? No one has named specific people or clubs, and we've kept this civil.

If there's drama anywhere, it's in the mistreatment of the escorts. Please don't hijack; we're trying to have a mature discussion here.

I agree there is no drama its a simple discussion I was asked for my point of view. I am not pointing fingers. *points at kris* o.o or am I?

As said below there are those who enjoy doing that they do as an escort. If they are exploited it might apear that way because people pay to see it. If I asked an escort to help me train a new escort and they said no Id be fine with it, but thats me. You can then say pets are exploited, when in the end that is what some of them want.

I take it then that you didn't see the irony of my post, which is a direct quote of what you say in other people's threads that you consider a waste of time because they don't suit your agenda?

I don't think I'll bother adding fuel to your personal little drama fest here, because it's all been said, really. I understand you just want to get a fair price for the sex services you offer, right? I can dig that.

Wow.

Kris, I feel sorry for you. You're so frustrated with Second Life that you have to resort to flaming a person because he stood up to you when you completely hijacked another GOOD thread. /120/54/25036/1.html

I realize you have plenty of friends who feel bad for you as well, but it does not excuse your rude behavior.

My agenda? Selling sex services? That's really laughable.

Please don't take the focus of the thread off a problem which we've had escorts now post and confirm happens.

EDIT: FYI the post you quoted me from was an exchange of personal attacks that does not belong on the board, and that's why I said what I said.

Nono. I do it because (a) I'm a forum troll, (b) I enjoy it, especially when people with zero sense of humor bite so hard, and (c) because I hate the hypocrisy. How is my first post in this thread ANY different to yours here? /120/53/25057/2.html#post239297.

Oh wait. I know how it's different. Because the idea of exploited prostitutes in clubs (totally NON drama, of course) interests you, whereas perceived unjust negative ratings for event holders - which also turned into a very reasonable discussion in the main - doesn't. I get it. It's ok for YOU to interject into a thread to dismiss it summarily in one line, but not for ME to do it. Duly noted.

(a & b) It's sad to see someone happy to break up intelligent conversations that aim to discuss real problems.
(c) Because that thread was an exchange of personal attacks. It didn't belong on the boards. This thread has named no names, no clubs, and participants have been civil.

Perhaps you should take some time off, look into your own life, find out what it is that is causing you such strife, and calmly seek to improve yourself. I mean you no harm. I just want to be able to discuss problems with SL without interruptions by people who admit they just want be be trolls.

You must really be hurt about Second Life. It's sad. =(

ROFL

This originating post seems full of fallacy.

#1 - How do you know "most new players, many females", are in fact female, and how do you figure MOST? Most implies a majority, and I don't believe 51% of all new 'female avatars' are doing this, let alone 'real female' players.

#2 - The club isn't selling the cybersex, the player is - and they have no obligation to pay any share of it to any club owner.

#3 - They are not paid poorly. $1000L in one hour is hardly paid poorly when the median account holds something like $1400L - according to Philip Linden

#4 Clubs get great dwell - what does this have to do with the prostitution.

Hiro what you should do is give an example of "exploitation". It sounds to me as if you are using this version: To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor

There is no exploitation happening in this instance. I for one directly recall when prostitution became the *in* thing BEFORE it started at clubs. Clubs did not bring prostitution to SL, residents of SL brought prostitution to the clubs.

This post suffers a bad case of ripeness.

Let's have an injured party (prostitute) post her hard days as an SL prostitute, and how she had no other choice but to do as club owner X demanded, which was sell her pixelated body.

Please explain yourself more when you say:



- Please identify the problem, and why you feel it is a problem
- What condition in SL are you referring to?
- What ramifications are you referring to?




You bring up pet auctions with people selling for $100L, and also said that you have heard of prostitutes getting less than $1000L. This is anecdotal evidence. Hardly a reason to continue a discussion. Is $1000L the unwritten standard? Is it an injustice of sorts for a prostitute to get less than that?

There are people who make clothing items and spend hours doing it and in end dont sell $400 worth of clothing in a week. A prostitute in SL making $400L/30mins is doing far better than someone working 1-10 hours to produce a line of clothing that does not sell at all.

I have been to a pet auction and watched more than 1 person sell for $100L - they didn't have to continue the auction or agree to the sale. What does it matter anyways?

SL is not filled with children. These are grown adults making these decisions, which do not hurt them as a person.

I am totally boggled by this post and have yet to understand the purpose of it.

Briana Dawson

If vehicle builders were to charge real-world rates for all the programming and modelling and texturing and sound foley and advertisement and so forth that they do, the ~$500 you pay for one would be in greenbacks instead of Lindens.

Now, if the escorts want to unionize... let them go ahead... it might be to their detriment, it might not... depends on how they go about it. If they feel they are being exploited, let them go that route, or stop doing that altogether.

Hiro, what you are doing is creating and justifying the criteria required in a thread that allows you to post "Just say no to drama" as you did here.

That thread is no more full of personal attacks than this one. Jeska Linden moderated that thread and kept it on track. Your post in that thread serves little purpose except to be a rude interjection.

In fact your statements to Kris in this thread albeit non-aggressive are still personal and directed at her.

Just because you declare a thread to be full of personal attacks and not belonging on the boards gives you the right to post your interruption as Kris did in this thread?

If the thread didnt belong on the forums, it would not be there anylonger, but yet it is. That thread is no more or less legitimate than this one.

Kris just called a spade....a spade.

If you don't want non-constructive criticisms in your own threads then you probably should refrain from posting non-constructive criticisms in others.

Briana Dawson

I will happily address your comments.

You're right, lol. That was not written clearly. I meant "most of them are new players".
As for the male/female, as stated by others, we don't know that all are female, but from LL's stated stats, we can estimate that the majority of female AVs are by female players.

Regardless, most of the AVs that are escorts are female, and that can be, as His Grace pointed out in another post, degrading to women to see them taken advantage of in certain clubs.


Clubs that endorse escorts are, in fact, selling cybersex. Their payment may be dwell, or visitors, but it's clear they endorse it because it benefits them. Some clubs require payment of a share, some don't. Some exploit escorts, some don't.


Okay, two points here to address.
1. You assume all get 1000L an hour. I've seen a lot of places where they don't even get that. I've seen pet auctions where people sell as low as 50L. Even at 1000L/hr, that's below US minimum wage.
2. Median account holding means nothing. If I earn 1million L$, and spend 999,000, I have a balance of 1000L. That doesn't mean I'm not rich. A more accurate measurement would be $L spent / week.


Clubs often get the dwell because they have the escorts (a) hanging out at the club waiting for Johns (b) they attract the Johns.


There are two posts in this thread from escorts / former escorts / dancers that call for revising the system. The first one describes her experience as a noob and her avoiding
escorting because of the abuse she saw. There's your examples, by other people.


I agree. Prostitution was around in SL before clubs. However, this isn't a post against SL prostitution; it's a post about certain clubs exploiting escorts.


I've just offered evidence to counter all of your objections, so far.


Again, exploitation does not have to be forced labor - it can also exist simply as the underpayment of employees. I don't think the example you cite here is necessary to illustrate that exploitation exists.


I meant that I was encouraging people to point out their experiences, both good and bad, as well as what it means in the grande scope of SL.


I was just using 1000L as a nice round number. Just because I won't name names and drag people through the mud does not mean that we can't continue the discussion; again, I started the thread as a means for people to discuss their take on it.


Hey, I guess it's easier to market clothing. There are also successful clothing designers who make a crapload more money than that. I will be coming out with a t-shirt line that both me and my business partner don't have to spent a lot of time working on, but we expect to make a lot of money. Bottom line, just because some prostitutes are successful doesn't mean that others aren't exploited.


Noobies are noobies, and not all adults are aware of everything that goes on. That's why things like consumer advocacy and worker advocacy are important. I'm sure there are plenty of escorts who are not being exploited; again, this does not mean there are not a bunch that are exploited.


I hope my answers help. It doesn't help that the first thing was stated poorly, lol!

Bottom line, plain English? There are some really sleazy club owners in SL.

bottom line plain english:
some people are fulfilling a fantasy that they would never dare in real life.

1. it is game money

2. people are making a concious decision of what to do with thier LEISURE time.

3. minimum wage: this is a game. not a job. maybe some people have a pretend job.

0. Yes, I agree. Key word "some".
1. Words of Philip Linden: "no". We just had this discussion in another thread. L$ -> $US too easily. It's real assets.
2. Yes. True, and people can still be exploited in conscious decisions.
3. Okay, granted. I gave the minimum wage as a comparison to show simply that even "good" escort pay was, in fact, not that high.

I definitely agree a good deal of people do it for kicks, realize prices are low, etc.

But "some" is not "all". And I'm arguing that "some" is not "few", either.

Briana, thank you for your intelligent and civil comments. You run a great business at the mall and you're a talented part of the SL community!

1. philip is speaking out of both sides of his mouth for promotional purposes. if you read the legal agreement, you will see that it is merely game money. the fact that people exchange L$, baseball cards, marbles, or stamps for USD does not make them money. the minute the float changes or the popularity of the game changes, the LL would spike or dive immediately.

2. it is a game. if people feel uncomfortable with the situation, they can log off, change identity, mute, abuse report.

3. if you want to confuse metaphors then you have to stop applying USD/american norms. in the "virtual country" of LL, cyber sex is a legitimate practice and with no "labour unions", "government", or "national labour regulations", you can't really make a case for what is a good or bad amount in this "country".

are you making a living on your fine swords? i'll be lucky to pay my land tier selling land. in your comments to bj, you state that SL is for fun. can't a person explore thier sexuality in the safety of a virtual environment without getting the community up in arms about the morallity of it all? i think this whole thread is an offense to women. it belittles women as some fragile and innocent creature then men must protect and care for.

Intelligent replies.

1. What makes little pieces of cloth paper with Ben Franklin on it worth value? Because it accepted and traded. Baseball cards have value, stamps have value - there are books that list their values, too. Yes, they are exposed to fluctuations due to supply and demand, but so does hard currency, too. As I stated in another thread, there are currencies in other countries that have inflated and failed; I'd wager L$ has remained much more steady than many world currencies. Hell, China artificially locks their currency...
So just as US$ has a value that fluctuates, is based on trade value, so does L$.

I don't think Philip is speaking out of both sides of his mouth - the reality is that often times legal TOSs are FAR more restrictive than the actual game practices. For example, LL can terminate your account at any time for any reason; it doesn't mean they regularly do this!

2. People can be exploited out of lack of knowledge. A discussion like this fights ignorance.

3. I disagree. Globally speaking, exploitation is a universal concept - don't steal. I'm not arguing against prostitution - as your point implies (US law / norms). I'm arguing against exploitation. Additionally, I think the exploitation of women (or the blatant appearance of it) is and ought to be a global concept. Remember, I'm not talking about prostitution, I'm talking about the taking advantage of in-game prosititutes.

Actually I move a lot of swords, believe it or not. I am only on the 4k land tier but I pay for it many times over.

And as for your last comment, let me reiterate - I'm not against people exploring this. I'm against club owners / etc taking advantage of the people who DO choose to be prostitutes. Maybe it seems like that's splitting hairs, but it's a significant difference.

I blame Hank Ramos for prostitution. Those boys and girls are just trying to make a little extra money to pay their way through the University of Second Life so they can better themselves.

Hot damn!!! My Tokin' Joints sell for L$25/box, which means I need to sell 40 boxes (about 2-3 weeks worth of sales) to make as much as an escort does in 30 minutes.

I'm officially adding "whore" to my list of job titles.

For a good time, call Ace Cassidy!

- Ace

Hiro

I can't, for the life of me, understand why you think these girls are being exploited. They do it for their own reasons, either for the money or they like cyber sex etc. Whatever the reason, they do it because they want to do it. It's not something that I would want to do but if someone else wants to, then its their business. There are clubs in SL where you won't find 'escorts' or 'exotic' dancers - if you fancy a dance i suggest you try one of those.

I mean there are other jobs available, I see them advertised, for event organisers in clubs and elsewhere etc. No-one is stopping any of these girls getting one of those jobs.

Why are you so uptight about this?

Latonia

What's so uptight about wanting to protect employee concerns? Uptight might be saying "ban prostitution in SL", and even that's debateable, but I'm not saying that, am I now?

We had two dancers / escorts already post positively to this effect. There's your proof.