Exploitation by Clubs of SL Prostitutes

EDIT: PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE, IT HAS BEEN TALKED OUT TO DEATH AND THERE ARE NO MORE NEW IDEAS, THANKS!

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I think there are many clubs that exploit players, most of them new players, many female, that are "escorts". Let's make no beans about this - they sell cybersex. They are paid poorly (literally a couple bucks if you convert L$ -> US$). It is unregulated. Clubs get, if nothing else, great dwell.

I think this is a problem that should be discussed, both with the condition in SL and with the ramifications of it, etc. Please do, and let's try and keep this civil, k? I promise I won't mention any names specifically.

EDIT: For people just reading this, to be clear: This is not an attack on escorts. This is a discussion about the perceived problem with a number of less ethical club owners taking advantage of unknowing escorts - prostitutes in SL.

I don't see how the clubs are exploiting anyone when the avatars are signing on to do it. I say avatars because I would bet more quite a few of the females are actually male...and of course there are male escorts too. If thats what they want to do with their time who cares. ...I think its more pathetic that someone would actually pay for their services.

I don't understand why clubs get so much dwelllLllLlLLlLLl

What, males posing as females?

For the humanity!

Talen, just because something is voluntary doesn't mean it's not exploited anyway. I'm not saying it's forced labor, just exploited labor. The proof is in the prices.

Granted, I think there are people who do it just for kicks. But I've also met noobs who go to dancer then escort and... they're just noobs that dont know better, ya dig?

some get their kix from chix with dix...unfortunately most probably have no clue that they are cybering with a 300lb 40 year old naked man who is telling them yea baby ...oooohhhh thats the way I like it

Ah, but think about what they're REALLY doing.

They're typing. Words on a screen. They're being paid for words. Apparently they're getting a few dollars for a short, interactive story, if they're good, or random grunting, if they're bad.

You can reduce anyone's job into basic movements.

Like a hitman... he's just moving his finger. On a gun. Aimed at a person. It's an extreme example, I know, but proof that you just can't simply boil down a job into movements. That would be the fallacy of division. ( http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/div.htm )

I would argue the best analogy would be to phone sex operators. And that is still regulated and the employees paid well.

As for prices proving exploitation again I say who cares. If someone wants to sell their pixels for 50 bucks a night so be it. These people aren't destitue and feeding a family with prostitution.....this isn't a real world remember. They have chosen to sell their pixels while working for a club....they are in fact exploiting themselves.

As for newbs going from dancer to escort ...I mean whore ...if thats how they want to spend their second life let em. There are some people who only play this game for its sexual side....be they whores, slaves, doms, or something all together asexual they do it for their own reasons. Sex sells and second life has a thriving sex market. I'm a prim whore myself and I exploit the shit out of myself with every build....and I even do it for free

i've listened to good, potentially developer [i use that term seriously, not as it's lldefined()] newbies complain about:

vehicle border lag
video (card) problems
there being nothing to do
the lack of building & scripting manuals
high land prices/the usd cost of owning land

often to the point of deciding to not play second life at all.

i've never not once heard one complain about the malls or clubs. it seems that most of the population are inworld either to make money selling items & services, or to puchase those items & services. i consistently wander through wonderful builds and cry for the ugliness of vendors plastered all over the walls. but it's the state of our world. it's what the populous demands.

is it a bad reflection on second life? it is in my opinion. but then, i'm a minority outcast for having that opinion.

Then perhaps you should invite a few of these ladies to come and comment about why they set their prices so low?

I'm assuming they set their own prices, of course.

But it's probably because you can get cyber-sex anywhere, for pretty much free.

Phone sex is regulated? How...and by who?

Being paid well or not has nothing to do with exploitation. Porn stars are paid well but they are still exploited.....McDonalds employess are paid shit....where do they fall?

The same argument was used in the early 20th century against labor unions and better standards for work. Sorry, I don't buy that.

What I hear from newbies all the time is how broke they are and how they desperately need money to buy stuff. (high land prices being one thing) When someone offers jobs, and there's a big glut in the available workers, employers will exploit employees.

Phone sex is regulated in the fact that companies who provide sex chat hotlines are regulated by the same corporate rules that other businesses abide by - including wages, benefits, workplace safety, etc.

Porn stars are exploited, true. It's not JUST about the money, clearly, though the money is part of it.

McDonalds employees are paid crap, but (a) There is very little responsibility (b) There is no required schooling or expertise required for hiring. (c) McDonalds is actually well known for providing long-term career opportunities to empower employees to become managers, store owners, etc. (d) I think minimum wage is due for increase.


EDIT: Excellent questions, by the way.

my god what bullshit. the early 20th century people had to put food on the table and did what they had to or worked where they had to to do it. This isn't real life these people arent selling their animated asses for the man because they need to....they are doing it because they want to ...HUGE difference.

Every newb hits the point where they are broke and they either learn to create or exploit themselves to make money. There are people paid to wear certain designers clothes...there are people paid to run events....there are people paid to gather information. People will do anything for money in world. You keep saying they are doing it for unfair wages paid by the club owners....well what do you think fair wages for a piece of pixelated ass should be and maybe we can start from there.

So what exactly should we be regulating? The prices charged? STD free certification? Where and how long these encounters take place?
Anybody who chooses to sell "sex" in SL has done just that, made a choice. They aren't doing it to eat, pay rent, and last time I checked cyber crack was not addictive.
To say people are forced to trick in SL because things are too expensive is just silly. There are a few alternate sources of income in SL, all of the ones I can think of are more profitable than hooking.

If it is decided that regulation is required, I would like to volunteer for that position. Just look for the tatooed asses w/ SSOA - Schwan's Seal of Approval.

Talen,
please keep this discussion mature. There's no reason to call anything "bullshit".

Schwanson,
I wasn't necessarily endorsing regulation. I merely pointed out the difference between SL and RL. I raise this topic as a way for us to examine the situation, and perhaps provide some non-regulatory ways to deal with the situation.

I'm not saying people are "forced" to trick. That's a straw man argument. I'm saying that when they choose to do it, they are exploited by certain (and not necessarily all) clubs / brothels.

This is NOT an attack on the choice of choosing to sell sex, please stop arguing that - you're arguing against nobody.

Instead, please stay on topic: clubs exploiting people who have chosen to be escorts. I think it's turning a blind eye to conditions to say this isn't happening.

OK, I still do not understand how clubs are exploiting anyone. If somebody makes a service available at a location and employs people to provide that service, that is not exploitation. Those that take part in this time honored trade can always go free lance. Their teleport buttons work just the same as anybodys. The latest incident with Elite proves that, people left what they considered an unfavorable environment for a more favorable one.

I'm curious: what makes it exploitation?

I looked up the definition for exploitation:

1. The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage: exploitation of copper deposits.
   
2. Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes: exploitation of unwary consumers.
   
3. An advertising or a publicity program.

I could see where #2 might apply, but I think it's a stretch, as the definition implies the one being used is *unaware* that they are being used.


I'm not up on current escorting rates IW, but I seem to recall it was several hundred $L's a while back, when the Cannabis Cathedral toyed with the idea of offering escorts. In that setup, the escorts set thier own pricing, of which the house would take a nominal cut and collect dwell in return for offering a space and advertising for the escorts. In this case, they were paid well from what I can remember: 500-1000+ for 1/2 hour session. Converting to USD, it might seem like highway robbery, but for SL, it's not shabby.

I can't agree that porn stars are exploited at all. They are getting paid, and usually very well, for a small amount of work. An old roomie of mine did a few (gay) porn flicks and made a very good living. The legacy might be questionable for some, but that is something one should consider BEFORE stripping/lubing/posing for the camera.

I would probably agree that RL prostitutes, except for those in Nevada, are being exploited. Because of our archaic laws banning prostitution, the sex workers do not get: security, fair pay, healthy working conditions, health care (and screenings), etc.

With all due respect, Hiro, I think this is rather naive. Don't know any better? Someone doesn't dance or sell cyber unwittingly. That would take some rather advanded mind control technique. "It was so strange... I wandered into this club and the next thing I knew I was talking dirty to someone for money! It must have been some kind of script that made me do it!" If they choose to do it then obviously they have chosen to do it, and it's not for you or me to judge them for how they choose to live their second life. They can also just as easily choose not to do it if they find it's not enjoyable to them. You can't call it exploitation. There are many people in SL who choose to do things they would never do in real life simply for the opportunity to explore areas of their psyche they can't safely explore in other ways.

1000L$ / 30 minutes is $10/hr US$ about. That's not all that bad for what amounts to phone sex. Prices like that don't seem to be all too exploiting. I've heard about much cheaper prices though, also pet auctions where people sell for 100L.

Guess I should have read the whole thread before I responded.

I would imagine (and I'm merely speculating) that people who escort in SL are doing it for reasons other than the money. I doubt that would be their primary reason. It's much more likely that they enjoy the roleplay.

Lest we forget how hard it is to break into a world like SL? When I was a newbie, I was lonely and lost and desperate to connect with anyone. I will never forget those kind people who helped me out. I was very lucky to meet some amazing people. Who knows? If I had met the wrong type of people for me, I might have chose to been an exploited prostitute too.



Exactly. And if that's not what they REALLY want to do in SL, they will come to that decision on their own. It's always sad to see someone head in a direction we don't agree with, but their choice is their own.

as far as I can conceive...there is no real way to 'force' anyone to do anything in SL they themselves do not choose to do (not counting the omnipotent Linden God Mode). Exploitation is only then a real possibilty if the exploited acn not, of their own accord, get out od their situation. It is a basic form of slavery, which isn't actually possible.
I am aware that peer pressure and things like that play a definite role. Again...if some club owner (and i am NOT addressing anyone specific) usues abusive ways or harrasement...well then there is a abuse report button.

I also see that in most states in the US virtual prostitution is just as outlawed (if right or wrong is a completely different subject). In which case the inworld prostitution may impose a problem on a legal level.
On an individual level - I don't like then I don't go there. Simple as that.
Yes Khamon I agree with you....I do want to make the point that in Serenity we are doing a bazaar at the moment but you are right. It is sometimes sad to see the most wonderful builds plastered with vendors or some incredible hulk of lagalosity rising up next to a beautiful spot.

But again...its the way things are...as little as I can force someone to be a 'prostitute' as little can I really hope that the mall or club owner next door will reason to the fact that we really have enough of those already.

Its sometimes sad.....and some of us hope it would mmaybe change...but we can't forget one thing ... people in SL are people in RL too and just cuz they are in SL doesn't make then lose their RL reality or personality, although sometimes one wishes. So neither greed nor ignorance will be dropped at the door to SL and we are not going to be able to change that.

Again, this isn't about forcing people to turn tricks. It's about exploiting them once they do. Obviously these people know what they are going to do, however, my point is that they aren't aware / organized / whatever enough to realize that many of the clubs are selling them off for a price that is simply exploitive.

In English - noobs don't necessarily realize how crappy of a deal they are getting, and certain clubs take advantage of said ignorance.

You're right, Az, we're not going to change the human condition. However, we can raise public awareness and we can put pressure on the offending clubs. Hence the post.