Exploitation by Clubs of SL Prostitutes

No, I didn't ask you to. I asked you to read before you posted.

Just as I have said in at least 4 previous posts, a person can choose to do something, as you say, and their employer can still exploit them.

Let me give you an example that is clear and easy to understand:
Employee A works for Company XYZ. XYZ shaves $10 from each paycheck and hides it as some tax. Employee A still chooses to be with XYZ but is still being taken advantage of.

And again, as I have said in at least 5 or 6 previous posts, just because someone is an escort doesn't make them exploited. It's only in certain cases.

...

You know, it's laughable now. I love it. It used to be sad but now it's amusing. People attack me, saying that I'm a hypocrite or an escort hater, and then I come back and show that people have misunderstood. Then another person comes along and says the very same thing as the last person.

We should take bets to see how many more people do the same thing.

I hold no grudge, because I know misunderstandings happen. I would have thought pointing them out was enough, but clearly not.

I believe such controversial issues need to be raised and the public discuss them, but hey, I suppose not everyone has the patience to understand what is being said before they attack the posters.

As I said in a previous post (ha!) I will from now on be restricting controversial topics like this to in-world events where I can boot trolls and no one is caught coming into the conversation in the middle and missing things.

Now please let this thread die and read something else! =)

That's fine, Kris. You're allowed to disagree.

If I'm mis-quoted, though, I will correct that.

here is an exerpt hiro. it seems to request a response from me.

ROFL

Nice description Hiro... i see this read another thread thing is SERIOUS!!

I tried changing mine to forum whore... but they ***** out forum o.O

then i thought well you might actually get told off for that willow so dont do i...

then i thought REBEL REBEL REBEL

then i thought READ ANOTHER GODDAM THREAD...

*makes a swift exit*

Sorry, you're right. I've also asked that the thread die a few times, but that was also an outstanding request. I suppose I assumed if you hadn't replied by now, that you wouldn't have. My bad.

OMG.... how i wish to see a whole thread dedicated to that

Start a new thread, start a new thread, start a new thread, Start a new thread, start a new thread, start a new thread, Start a new thread, start a new thread, start a new thread

hiro,
if your case for exploitation is wages you are off the deep end. it's play money. it's clearly a game. it's not a job. some people can make a lot of money playing this game, but their success does not set the social standards for SL.

if the cases you are talking about are people getting paid 100 L$ to talk sex for half an hour that's a pathetic case. everyone can afford to buy 1000 L$ on GOM for the price of a happy meal. people do it because they choose to and are ok with it.

clearly you think L$ have an intrinsic value. the creators of the L$ don't have the faith you do.

I have to say, I am very surprised at the naivete of some of the postings in this thread.

Perhaps it is a shame that the escort business was mentioned at all, and that the thread was not purely about exploitation in the abstract.

I just want to make three points which seem very obvious to me, and yet are clearly not to some other people.

1. Yes, you can willingly embark on a course of action, but still find yourself subsequently exploited. That indeed is the way exploitation usually happens.

2. A person does not need to have their arms broken to remain in thrall to someone else. The number of unhappy marriages in the world should be ample evidence of that. Emotional manipulation is the easiest possible way to exploit someone, and the bruises are invisible.

3. To think you can thow open an invitation and expect those who are exploited to come along and announce the fact like someone at an AA meeting is somewhat unrealistic, to say the least.

I am not saying there is wholesale exploitation in second life, but certainly there does appear to me to be emotional manipulation, judging by what I have read. I believe it's a valid subject for discussion, and a valid subject for concern.

i didn't reply because i only have a handful of constructive posts in me per day. i also thought that others had clearly showed you how your outlook is anti-feminist but they hadn't.

it's ok for you to be anti-feminist and a traditionalist if you like, but be open about it so we can clearly see the bulls eye

LOL we spoke about this in the thread already, too - actually within the first 3 pages.
Summary:
- $200L -> $1US very easily
- Philip & LL have said they encourage commerce this way

You are free to disagree. This would be a good discussion to start a new thread in

Like... yours?!



IN THE REAL WORLD. This is not the real world. This is SL. Tell them 'get stuffed', TP away, find something else to do. You cannot be forced, bullied or coerced into anything in SL! (unless you are incredibly weak natured, I guess)



IN THE REAL WORLD. This is not the real world. This is SL. Tell them 'get stuffed', TP away, find something else to do. You cannot be forced, bullied or coerced into anything in SL!



Yes it is.



I guess. If only so people come to the realisation that ... this is SL. Where you can tell them 'get stuffed', TP away, find something else to do. You cannot be forced, bullied or coerced into anything in SL!

As Surreal said, it is plain insulting to even equate the real world equivalent issues to SL, where it is essentially a non issue.

That's cool, Jauani. I was being matter of factly and genuine in my retraction.

as for your second statement, PFFFFFFT. Let's not have this argument again, lol!

hiro, if your RL boss offered you L$ equivalent in pay, would you accept it? imagine the tax breaks.

we already discussed that philip is talking out of both sides of his mouth as a good ceo should to pump this game. encouraging commerce and us to give value to this game money is not the same as giving the game money value it self. last time i checked, the institution that has the greatest control over the value of the L$ officially values it at 2000 L$ = 1 USD. Link

feel free to start a new thread. i'm sure there is probably some commerce and economy professionals in our community ready to interject with some mind numbing theory for us.

Before I answer you, Kris, let me say again - all of what I am about to say has already been covered in the thread more than once.

*ahem*

Once again, exploitation does not necessarily require force, bullying, or coersion. Read my example I stated in my recent reply to Jauani for a clear counter-example.


1. They may not realize it has happened - as in the example I just cited.
2. If they do realize they are being exploited, then you are acknowledging that exploitation happened, regardless of how long it took a person to realize it.


I disagree. Just because the two clearly are of different magnitudes of importance and significance doesn't mean it's not a problem. It's just that RL exploitation of escorts is a much much worse problem.

Oh, and again you could have read all that earlier in the thread.

Interesting thoughts. I'm going to start a new thread with it, okay?

yes

Jauani,

<<IN THE REAL WORLD. This is not the real world. This is SL.>>

Are you seriously proposing that emotional manipulation cannot happenin sl?

Uh, that was me who said that, not Jauani.

And no. Not at all. SL can be hugely emotional.

But logging off is a shortcut away in any situation.

Edited to address Hiro too:

Hiro, if they don't REALISE they are being exploited, how do you expect them to come post their experiences of it here?

The fact is, what this comes down to is whether other people think they are being exploited or not - not the person in question. If an escort in SL doesnt enjoy it, or doesnt think they are well enough paid, they'll stop. Unless they are REALLY stupid.

If other people still think they are being exploited, well, that's their hangup. *shrug*

(yeah yeah, I know. Read the thread )

Kris,

Oops, sorry.

The whole point about emotionally manipulating someone is that they *don't* log off. If you have never seen or experienced emotional manipulation, you are a very lucky person.

Ok. Then this discussion shouldn't be about Escorts or Prostitutes or Clubs or anything of that ilk. It should be about ANYONE who feels that another player is able to manipulate them in such a way that they no longer have the free will to log the hell off or tp the hell away.

I promise you, I have had both really emotionally fantastic and emotionally upsetting and draining experiences in SL. But I can't really say that I've ever felt that another player was forcing me to do something against my will, nor would I let them, because I know at the end of the day that the control is all in my hands.

This is why I can't see the equation between RL and SL in this respect. You can't tp outta your situation in real life and cancel the calling card and mute someone you don't want to find you!

ROFL! I have just noticed this thread and I have to say that as an Escort for a couple of clubs myself I have never felt exploited by them. Sometimes I have been exploited by the odd customer when, stupidly, I have not made the terms clear before starting any activity and they did not expect to have to pay! Otherwise, I am very happy to be an Escort as I think of it as just a bit of fun, giving me a chance to do something I wouldn't dare dream of doing in real life! As it turns out, the majority of my work ends up being freelance (if the person concerned contacts me directly and I am not at any of the clubs at the time), so I don't owe anybody anything. Only one club asks for 40% if I use it, but I rarely do.

My rates are fairly low anyway to keep it affordable for the majority of people, but occasionally there will be some who pay a lot more. I can honestly say I don't think anyone has ever gone away disappointed and usually seem very satisfied with my service.

Good question.
Answer: The forums are a venue of public awareness. That person might read or hear about this discussion, and rethink things about their employer.

I believe you are exploiting the people reading the forums.
Clearly you have a personal agenda and will not let it rest until every agrees with every convoluted point you think you make.
You bullying people by slamming any comments in this thread which you feel don't get your point.
Maybe you should clearly (beyond what you've attempted so far) state what you are trying to express with this thread. And yes I have read the whole thing.

To say people are being exploited without specific examples and then jump on people in those situations who disagree with you is antagonistic and shows you don't really want other opinions just people to read your thread and leave it at that.

We are all being exploited in SL if we go by your above example. LL labs sells Secondlife with examples of in-game content, which the majority of was made by Secondlife residents who do not benefit from it. People also stay in the game based on the in-world content that appeals to them.

If you really think there is a problem, work to solve it, don't lambast every person who states a contrary or dissimilar opinion.

Hiro, believe it or not I read the thread before posting. The title of the thread is "Exploitation by Clubs of SL Prostitutes." I read and re-read to see if any other club owners had bothered to defend against your allegations, and seeing that none had, I took it upon myself to step up to the plate.

The very title of this thread seeks to demonize a class (club owners) through allegations of exploitation. As a member of the class under attack, I felt it was very well within my rights to respond. We've heard a fair amount from escorts, but I was the first to respond from the club owner's point of view. I believe I addressed several issues that were not raised in previous posts. The economic realities that clubs face in SL were the determining factor in our decision to hire escorts, and I hoped that an explanation of those realities might counter the premise of your thread.

Did you single me out? No. Nor did I accuse you of doing so. But I offered a point of view that was unique to the thread, and your only rebuttal was to accuse me of not reading previous posts. And despite your pleas that no one else be heard from, I reserve the right to defend myself against a blanket accusation against a class of which I am a member.

Gotta say that this is nearly the conclusion I came to a while back - even before this whole thread. Props to ya Camille for being so eloquent.

I actually do see this entire thread as an exploit of the forum system - it is the epitome of a troll stirring a hornet's nest while trying to clothe himself as a vestal virgin. From the get go here, there has been no single arguable premise. The original post was opinion not a single debatable premise and none of the thread starter's responses to replies ever clarified or reduced the orignal post down to a single coherent assertion to be discussed.

Instead, threats, insults, cries of "I'm being abused" and what seem to be deliberate twists and misunderstandings of replies not "agreeing" with the thread starter came from him. Like a broken record spinning at 78 rpm, the tactic most commonly used was "read the thread" - a thinly veiled blameshifting technique that exonerates (or tries to) the thread starter and tries to establish any fault for disagreement with those who do not agree with the original post. It's not a particularly sophisticated strategy but one often seem used in politics, that bastion of respected rhetoricians who speak publicly for a living.

The second most obvious strategy used here was victimage. First, setting up a victim to save, then claiming victimage for oneself when others disagreed, pointed out the flaws and shortcomings of the original post/replies, and/or simply claiming to be misunderstood. As someone else said, being a "virtual" victim is truly easy - well-illustrated in this thread.

My conclusion is that, for whatever reason, Hiro decided to become his own troll. Surprisingly, most trolls don't like when the light of fires are turned on them as they usually get turned to stone doing so. Somehow, it seems, he has survived the sun rising and keeps returning to this thread to try to salvage ----- something?

Sad. Truly sad.

Hiro. I apologize. You may have more problems than I was aware of and I should not have attempted to engage you in a battle of rhetorical wits. You seem either constitutionally unable to play this game or constitutionally ill-equipped for it (llike a 6 year old wearing his college-aged brother's full-sized football gear - it looks cute until a 300 pound defensive end squashes the 8 year old). I invite everyone to the funeral for the troll formerly know as Hiro the Hero. Services will be held elsewhere in cyberspace - time and place to be announced at a later date.