Exploitation by Clubs of SL Prostitutes

Hiro, I have no doubt that you are sincere on this issue. But I think you have a couple of starting points that just don't fly.



A noob in SL can be of any age, any RL experience, and any gaming experience level. It is very difficult to make sweeping statements about a noob's ability to do anything. Noobs do not enter SL by default innocent and stupid.

Either this is about wages or it is about sex. If it is about wages, then the fact that all of the minimal skill jobs are not very well paid have to be addressed. Why make escorts a seperate class. Is "exploiting" someone as a model any less wrong then? Are you proposing a minimum wage for all unskilled positions? Rules about working conditions, etc.? How could this possibly be enforced. Would it simply drive all hiring transactions underground?

I've read your other thread too Hiro. Let me clarify my comment. It seems to me that you have issue with sex for money. You described it as pathetic in one thread. By definition, escorts sell time for money. This is what lets them skate by in the U.S. I'm sure they sell other things too, but I believe that falls under what should be a human right... privacy of actions between consenting adults. Since there can be no real use of force in SL, and we are all supposedly adults.. I don't see the problem with people doing whatever.

If there really is an exploitation problem, then we need to hear from more than a couple of escorts verifying that there is. That is how RW change happens. The most legitimate voices on those kinds of issues are the people involved. I think Juro has done the right thing by asking people who have worked as escorts here to post their experiences.

I know next to nothing about the SL escort scene, but I do know real life escorts. They sell more than sex. The problems they face are not things that translate here: safety from being beat up; healthcare access; corrupt police; legality...

Anyway.. my 1.67 $L

Surreal

Isis,

<<and Selador saying that there is a well known horrid club owner out there...we all know that. But being an idiot doesn't mean you are exploiting people.>>

With respect, I suggest you read my posting again, then go to the other thread and follow the link to the web page concerned, read that, then come back here and comment.

I would have agreed with you before I followed the link and read what was said there.

agreed Surreal...to me the problem with these clubs has nothing to do with exploitation for the very reasons you cited...the problem is with quality control....basically if you want to be payed more you need some skill set which can be quantified other than a purchased dance bracelet.

which thread...I looked for another thread regarding dancers but couldn't really find the one you were speaking of...I could be wrong about all of this (it happens often and I am more than willing to admit when it does)...

Ok...I'm assuming it is the blogish looking link with all the defected dancers from the club run by a known moron...that said...all of these folks came to their sences...I mean I have worked for some deranged bastards and it is my choice to stay or go. Of course irl I have a mortgage to think about and ramen noodles to buy so the answer is not as easy. But in SL we eventually find out who the idiots are and to be quite honest...two seconds of conversation should be enough with some club owners.

These people were not exploited...they were smart...they realized that some clubs are ran by morons and some are not, so they move on to the next club. That is the culture of dancing.

Not to be mean here...but if you cannot see after speaking with certain parties that they are 2 beers short of a six pack...well maybe you shouldn't be interacting outside of the grammer school. Who is worse the insane despot or those who follow him?

It's about wages / certain club owners being sleaze to the escorts. I opened the discussion to maybe discuss ways of dealing with it, but mostly, public awareness is the best medicine, usually a lot more effective than regulations.


Okay, I'll admit - I was wrong to say it was pathetic simply to pay for sex. Perhaps my true feelings is that if you NEED to pay for sex, rather than simply choosing it - that is what is sad. (and yes, I toned down my word choice) Paying for sex because you simply want a choose it... well, that's your choice, but let's keep it out of the spam of the event listings, eh?

As for use of force, coersion doesn't need to be force, and in addition, ignorance is also a tool of exploition. But valid comments, Surreal.


I agree. If you go through this thread there are at least 3 (I think 4) personal stories. I thought Juro's thread was a good idea, too, but it was, of course, hijacked by trolls.


Yes, agreed, absolutely. RL escorts is a much larger problem. The issue in SL is on a much smaller scale.

Thanks, Surreal.

I haven't read this whole thread... it's insane to do so.

But this is by far the most senseful post I've read up to now. I can rest in peace

lol...ok I am now your love slave...you have exploited my need for acceptance!

Okay.. NOW we can start talking about what you intended to have this thread talk about. It's about damn time.

I am going to echo a few posts in a quick summary/statement of my opinion.

Your stance on prostitution is a moral one you are entitled to. More power to you for having strong opinions. OTOH, SL is not Hiro's little corner of the world alone. Hiro shares SL with the rest of us and some of us disagree with Hiro. Fuggedabouddut.

Sex and escorts does not necessarily equal prostitution in a perjorative sense. Ever meet a real world prostitute Hiro? I've known a few on varying bases. Some felt exploited, others chose it as a career because they could make far more money than I could hope to in my chosen profession. Three I know of made above 6 figures a year. Two I know have MBAs. One is a currently lawyer.

As for escorts/dancers, it takes all kinds. Some are prostitutes. Some are just college girls working for extra money. A number are housewives trying to make ends meet in the only job that truly maximizes their skills to pay ratio. As someone with an alt who dances here in SL, I do it for reasons totally my own and not something I care to reveal publicly tho I will admit the money is as good as I want it to be and sometimes much better depending on the day.

Your arguments that escort services/prostitution should not exist in SL are completely moralistic and I won't argue your morals. Suffice it to say that I don't agree. Starting what amounts to multiple threads doesn't make your argument any more plausible or palatable. It's proselytizing pure and simple. I don't go to the Church of the Anti-Sex Proselytizer!

Likewise I find your arguments that dancers are being exploited and that club owners are profiting from that exploitation is equally moralistic. I can't think of a single person I know that needs to be saved from such "exploitation" - not one. Virtual lives are just that - virtual. It's all about choice... all about choice. Each individual's choice - not yours alone, not mine alone.

So... simply put. Please quite preaching while pretending to couch your argument as something it is not.

I know many rl call girls. They have sex a bit...but it is mostly a fantasy game. I myself have had customers who wanted nothing but to be tied with their own belt to a chair and forced to sit and watch me ignore them...occasionally walking by to pinch them or tell them how nasty they are. I have also saved marriages by giving men ideas on how they can better satisfy their wives. None of this is black and white.

But back to the exploitation which no one seems to really want to discuss. Answer this...If a woman is "exploited" while in a situation she can easily walk away from without repercussion is that really exploitation? Are we suggesting that she is too ignorant to see the situation?

So far from my readings in the forums this is not true...these women do realize it and they move on to greener pastures. The real problem is in getting people who really want to make a reputable club to work and create one.

OMG.. thank you so much for posting this.

It takes such little effort to be a "virtual martyr" in a SOCIAL GAMING THREAD, and all it does is feed the ego while marginalizing serious rl issues. It would be nice for some people to practice their rhetorical skills on certain serious social issues irl instead.

But then again.. that would involve effort and the desire to win more than just an argument.

Awesome post Surreal!!!!!!

Isis,

Yes, that was the site. We obviously saw different things there. I saw emotional manipulation.

Mind you, that is not unusual in all aspects of life - it's just that it seemed to me to be applied in a rather knowing manner.

But that was just my view of it.

i think one of the larger issues is that people are hung up about what other people do, sexually speaking.

this creates a stigmatization that denigrates people, and at the same times applies social coersion to conform. not conforming to "social norms" usually "allows" the larger society to treat nonconformists poorly.

Hi, welcome to the gameshow "Read the Post" where you win big cash prizes by "reading the post." In today's show, we feature Troll Korg, who has failed to "read the post".

Korg, what is it you do for a living?

Korg: "Well, I troll the boards, ignore key comments, completely misquote posters, and otherwise Straw Man attack to make me seem correct!"

...

Korg, for the sixteen millionth time, no one in the thread has argued against SL escorts per se. The post is about the exploitation of SL escorts. Thanks, come again.

I walked into in the club under my own free will and when I was ready to leave, I left under my own free will. I picked who I wanted to play with and who I didn't want to play with.
Plus, I made very good money at it. One last note, I don't need you to be my mommy.

/sarcasm Thanks, way to keep it non-attacking. /sarcasm
You could have left off that last line and it would have been a fine post. There are plenty of escorts in SL who are fine. There are others being exploited. Just because you are fine doesn't mean everyone is.

Wow, all these crazy whores posting in this thread makes me loose all faith in humanity.

Okay you arrogant little male appendage.

I tried, I really tried to treat your post as serious. You can't take criticism or a difference of opinion. Great. We have the ground rules down now.

Take your preachy little crap and stick it. That simple. You remind me of Jimmy Swaggart - caught in New Orleans with his hand literally in the "cookie jar" of a whore and then crying about it on television in order to garner forgiveness and consequently up his donations from viewers.

In your case, you preach a moralistic lump of crap - exploitation, degradation, we have to stop this and save these people from themselves - and then turn around and act like a complete ***wad.

A number of women (and for all you know, you stupid little a**, I AM a woman masquerading as a guy) have stated they are NOT being exploited. You even agreed you misrepresented your own damn position in your opening post. YOU argued aginst escorts. You did. You admitted it. You equated sex with escorts - in multitple threads here and elsewhere. So you can't aren't even consistent in your arrogant and self-righteousness arguments. Stick it somewhere dark. I am sure that if you reach around behind you, you will find the appropriate place. I am tired of your crap.

I haven't misquoted anyone. You have routinely misinterpreted almost every post that doesn't outright agree with you... almost every one. And it's not just me that you have a problem with. You seriously need to examine yourself - not play with yourself. Examine yourself and try to figure out why your are so sensitive to criticism.

Cumulatively, your posts today have established that you want to be the moral conscience of SL. Guess what? You aren't. You won't be. And SL will do just fine without you acting as such.

/me notes that Hiro the Hero's cooperative braincell count just reached the negative number count.

/me gives up any hope for Hiro becoming a real boy. Too bad. Pinocchio was looking for a playmate to give splinters to.

I've asked Jill Linden to get someone to lock this thread due to personal attacks.

I refuse to respond anymore to insult-hurling trolls.

You asked her to block this thread due to the attacks?

That's the best laugh I have had all day long!

hiro, that is funny since your whole premise is an insult to women who are playing SL in anyway that is unagreable to you. sugar coat it as much as you like it, but you've been talking a lot of trash the last few days.

i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were pulling our legs.

hmmm.. ran to Momma Linden and whined.. "lock the thread.. lock the thread"...

an hour and a half later.... I can still post.. .. hmmm.. wonder what that means?

(no insult intended to any Linden of course)

Jauani, care to actually explain this? I respect your opinion but I ask you to support your argument if you are going to accuse someone of something.

The only trash I have talked is about club owners who abuse escorts, and about trolls. Back this accusation up with some hard evidence - What is my premise that is an insult to women? That some are being exploited?

So pointing out women being exploited is insulting? That's what I'm getting from your post.

Again, AGAIN, I ask - if this is not a legit problem, why have multiple escorts / dancers posted and agreed that this is a problem? If nothing else, answer this question.

It's obvious that will all this trolling crap, people have been skimming these threads, missing things, mis-reading things, and getting the wrong impression. I hold no ill feelings to anyone who keeps it civil, which is the overwhelming majority of people who have posted here. I knew posting the thread that it would be controversial; I had hoped to keep personal judgement of people down to a minimum.

An honest thank you to all the people who, on any side of the issue, have posted and kept things civil, even if strongly expressed. Perhaps next time I'll simply host a discussion event; where at least I can kick out trolls.

It's not a valid question because it's based on what appears to be a lie. Escorts to a large degree have posted saying it's not a problem.

EDIT: I take that back. I can't find an escort that agrees with Hiro at all. One says he's partially right, the rest just argue with him.