Exploitation by Clubs of SL Prostitutes

prostitution is fantasy sex. sex in second life is fantasy.

discourse in second life is fantasy. social relationships in second life are fantasy.

second life is fantasy that you pay for. prostitution is fantasy that you pay for.

all sex in second life is prostitution. all discourse in second life is phone sex. all social relationships in second life is foreplay that you pay for.

I sold my SL virginity for $300L Only problem was the bidder wouldn't cyberz me up after words, I'm so pathetic.

Also a random person walked up to me at a club one time and handed me 2000L, I gave it back then they gave it to me again. I was like you want some hot cyber or something and they flew away WTF!

This is why I play with guns so much nowadays, my av's got blueballs.

see my earlier post, Aces... I'm signin' up for some of this escorting stuff too... Sellin' weed in SL just ain't payin' the bills.

What you say you and I go into the escort business together? I have the perfect name for our endeavor.

We'll go with the poker angle, and call ourselves "Pocket Aces".

I got my come on line all figgered out... "Hey there big fella, I bet I know what you have in YOUR pocket."



- Ace

Where the sex is fantasy (mutual guided masturbation at most) the social discourse is real. We are all real people, after all. It's just there's some changes for the media.

Let's see.. "discuss"? Either you want us to talk about this so as to reach a decision or you want us to simply talk about this topic in detail - at least according to the two most common definitions of the word discuss listed in my copy of the Oxford dictionary.

What I have observed in this thread, discouting the witty reparte you and I have exchanged, is a barely veiled insistence that any disputation of your view is either not on point or just plain wrong - according to Hiro.

Differences of opinion are just that. Seems a lot of people differ with Hiro's opinion on this issue.. that's merely a fact, neither proof that Hiro is right nor that he is wrong.

I happen to think that Hiro's stated reasoning for his apparent opposition to "escorts" is a misconception or misunderstanding of what escort means despite others pointing out the difference between escorting and prostitution. Personally I am both amused and offended by this. I have essentially been labelled a prostitute for walking my Grandmother down the aisle at my sister's wedding. (Yes I was paid for the time it took to mosey down the aisle with her - in an unquantifiable measure of love.) Actually, I think the old broad might get a kick out of the thought that she had hired a gigolo!Heh.

I've reached the point in this thread that I now realize some people cannot be reasoned with. They take all counter-arguments as personal attacks, including those offered in jest.

Hiro.... you obviously have a couple of braincells that still function cooperatively. I wish you well with them though I think you are wasting a lot of time on this thread/this argument.

Well..this whole topic is a bit funny. I'm mean..come on. No one is being forced to do anything. Anyone in SL is free to do what they please as long as it is within the rules. A big, bad club-owning pimp tells his escorts, "You gotta do 50 guys a day or your're gonna get beat!". LOL!! The escort then would have several different options; report club owner to the Lindens, blackmail club owner with the threat of reporting them, tell the club owner to kiss there little hinney, log off and go watch tv, leave the establishment and put the club owner on ignore, laugh in the club owners face and do whatever they feel like doing, or obey the club owner as part of their own ongoing "prostitute" fantasy/roleplay. There is just no way explotation is gonna be involved unless it's the decision of the escort to be exploited for the fun and/or adventure of it. Jeez...

Once again, if you don't like my thread, DONT READ IT!

As for your grandma example, I seriously... like I'm TRYING to phrase this in a non-condescending way.

Words have multiple definitions.

Certainly "escort" can mean "a person who accompanies another person".
Just as "hooker" can mean "a person who uses a hook".
Just as "lady of the night" can mean "a woman who is on the graveyard shift".

However, when referring to people in SL who charge money as "escorts", the definition means, "prostitute".

Once again, you throw sarcastic insults. If you really were interested in proving your point you would answer my points rather than ignoring them. You would be serious instead of insulting.

Of course, the alternative is that you're INTENTIONALLY acting like a complete idiot. Which is very likely, troll.

For the love of god!!!!!

For the third time, exploitation does not require forcing someone to do anything.

Please don't ignore previous posts before you bash the thread.

you still haven't quite grasped the mirror thing from earlier yet, huh?



nono. Korg is a curmugdeon. I'm a troll. You're a pompous ass. See?

1. I responded to that. Apparently another thing you ignored.

2. Roger, reporting you. Thanks come again.

By all means, and like I doubted you wouldn't for a second. More hypocrisy on your part. You DON'T get personal?!

From my rl experience, Adult Entertainment Unions rarely work. This is mostly due to the transient nature of the employees. Most entertainers/escorts like the proffesion because they dislike rules, schedules and any sort of regulation. They like being able to drift from club to club without contracts and the only strings they want are on the sides of thier t-bar. How do I know this, because I danced irl and then managed a club for 4 years. Women came and went...always under assumed names. They did not want paychecks because they did not pay taxes.

Many people dance because they enjoyed the money, annonimity and freedom. Very few do so because of the art involved...they become features. They work hard on costuming, body sculpting, music and choreography. If you want to be a great sl dancer put together a burlesque style show. Have showgirls and fireworks in your clubs. It can be a beautiful and amazing art. Cirque de la nudité if you will.

But don't try to say that "house dancers" are exploited just because they are not feature entertainers. And don't say that hookers are exploited just because they are not call girls. People are what they are because that is who they are. If someone does not want to take on the challenge of becoming a true entertainer...if they want to wear skimpy clothes and high heels, drink beer, curse and do the same old lap dance night after night...they are only exploited because they are unwilling to take it to the next level.

The same holds true for someone who makes clothing in sl...one person may grind out 100 outfits a day..all recolors and appearance mode cropping of the same shirt and pants...should they be angry that the person who works weeks on one outfit makes more for the work they put into it...Anyone can be exploited if they allow themselves to be. It would be different if this were a dictatorship where these people were required by LL to work in sweatshops without anyother choice. But the options are out there.

If you want more...elevate the art without degrading the minions who choose to work the lower positions.

LOL..so exploitation in SL means???? Umm..they got sold bad prims? They got lied to about what a glorious and pure life an escort leads (ya right)? They are underpaid and over worked? They don't get clean sheets?? I've read the thread and still can't figure out how they are being exploited...

They know what they are doing, they chose to do it, and they can stop doing it at any time. So you are saying everyone in SL is being exploited? Cause we all have the same choices and options...

I bow to the wisdom of the victim's cry for the pain is so obvious - as obvious as the need for attention, however negative that attention might be.

I must not read anything that Hiro posts for fear that he may say something I disagree with and have the temerity to respond to.

I must be interested in "proving my point" for two reasons - Hiro says so.... .and ... ummm... Hiro makes the rules.

I must only have two paths in life to choose from... play by Hiro's rules.... or.. umm.. play by Hiro's rules (one of which is to be called an idiot if Hiro doesn't "win" an unwinnable argument ----- oh and let's not forget who was going to report whom for abuse due to insults)>

/me lowering my estimate of Hiro's number of copperatively functioning braincells... damn.. seems to be approaching zero dude. Better be careful. Don't drink any alcohol or take any alcohol-based cough medicine. You might not be able to afford the result.

Good thread and thanks for opening it Hiro. It's interesting on lots of levels, not least of which are age old questions such as (i) whether Linden dollars are real money and (ii) whether there are forms of cohersion and exploitation that do not involve physical threat but rather social structures that have the same effect. I just hope everyone can keep their cool while discussing these issues and refrain from simple pronouncements. Obviously both these issues are in dispute and mere pronouncement (e.g. "Linden dollars are play money, end of story" are not apt to carry us far. OK, enought moralistic meta-commentary from me...

Damn!! I spend about 15 hours and a couple maybe $100 on uploads making an outfit.. which sells for $300, and I have sold about 10 of......

Wow.. I need to check out working as a whore. Better pay. Get to meet people instead of spending all my time in Corel. Ratings, Exercise. AND.. I get to use my degree in English!!

Hiro. I don't know what your agenda actually is. It has been obvious from your last several threads that you have a serious issue with people & cybersex. I'm not sure why. It has always baffled me why anyone cares what other people are doing sexually, unless they are doing it with you.

The parallels you are drawing from real life simply do not apply. And frankly, as a woman who did a lot of radical activist political work on women's issues, I am deeply offended that you dilute and trivialize seroius real life issues which are ongoing. If you feel this desire to save people, then look around in your community and do some constructive work there instead of lecturing the rest of us.

Surreal

And another point to be made regarding the adult entertainment "industry". When I worked as a dancer, I payed between 30 and 100 dollars per night for "tip out" not including costuming, tipping the dj's, bartenders, mc's, housemoms, make up artists and floor men. There were nights when I walked with 2 grand and there were nights when I left with just enough to grab some hashbrowns and coffee at the waffle house. We didn't feel like we were being exploited...the rent on the facilities are high and the staffing is expensive. The owners also take great risks both financially and legally. Some of that is true here as well.
But many of my best memories are the nights when we were slow...all the girls would get on stage and show off the latest pole trick. We would drink and laugh...break out the Grease Cd and put on goofy skits for each other.
It is hard to understand a world you havn't lived in and been a part of. Most of the women I see dancers in SL are much like those I know irl...they love to have fun, listen to music and dance. Maybe some of the women in sl were not able to be dancers irl...maybe it was a fantasy of theirs...I don't know. But to say they are exploited is to assume they are dumb enough to be exploited.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Reread my comments. Also read the comments of people validating that this abuse does take place. I have nothing against cyber, or cyber for money, but there is a problem with people taking advantage of what amounts to mostly noobs. I don't see addressing one problem in game trivializes a RL problem. I'm not lecturing anyone about what they should and should not do other than (a) Not to hijack (b) Not to abuse SL escorts

I'm hurt that you, having dealt with me in game, would make such bold assumptions of my reasons for starting this thread, which, I may reiterate, was civil and intelligent before trolls came along.

Is it now taboo to bring up perceived problems with player abuse in SL just because I said clubs were doing it? (Not even naming which ones.)

Once again to say someone is being abused in an environment that promotes freedom of expression and boundless opportunities to elevate yourself in ways only your imagination can restrict, is saying that the assumed abused are ignorant or unable to do otherwise and it is up to us to protect them...I find this to be not only insulting but equal to the degradation and exploitation that you assume is happening within the industry. You seem to be exploiting this for your own reasons as well...whether you are looking for attention or feel the need to be a savior, I don't really know...

I will reiterate my point...to say that in a free society such as this, one lacking the shackles present even in a real world democracy, that a person would subject themselves to any sort of exploitation or that the person is without choice or requires "saving" is basically saying the person is too ignorant to save themselves, realize the level of exploitation or make another choice.

That's why I don't find a point in the escorting. You could be paying for the escort and having them around for a while. But you never actually know if its another male on the other side of the AV. To me that's just creepy. And a waste of money.

If you need someone to talk to, that's what friends are for.

Isis,

If this is so, how come multiple escorts and a dancer have come and posted to acknowledge that abuse goes on?

Okay, I've said what I needed to. I brought up what I see as a problem. Not with all or possibly most clubs but many. People have spoken on both sides. The issue has been discussed. People have questioned my motives, I have explained them. Others have come forward and agreed that there is a problem.

I am retiring from this thread.

Korg,

Your response: <<Second, brainwahsing? Again. You gotta be kidding. Mindgames? Fine. But brainwashing?>>

My original comment: <<While 'brainwashing' might be too strong a term to describe what seems to be happening, there appears to be no doubt that a certain amount of emotional manipulation is going on.>>

I read one from a previous dancer/escort. I am not saying that the clubs are run in an efficient or correct manner. Most of them could use some reorganization and maybe a bit of experience working in clubs irl to see that it takes a ton of work to run a class act club. But this world is still in it's infancy...I have tremendous faith that there will be well run clubs in the future...the first person to open an actual club with some forethought other than an ad on the events calander saying "strippers, money, music" will make a fortune...but it will take a group of folks working together and most people who get into this particular industry do not like work...Dancers/escorts and owners alike. I have only seen one club...a long time ago when I first came to sl...that required dancers to audition, costume, and rehearse. And who is to say that these "exploited" few are not biding their time to do something great. Maybe they need a few hundred bucks to download the next great clothing line.
Your arguments assume too much and have too few facts.

ohh and the rule with multiplicity means 3 or more...not one and Selador saying that there is a well known horrid club owner out there...we all know that. But being an idiot doesn't mean you are exploiting people. The people who go there seek it out and if they don't read the forums, they sorta get their just desserts. But it is obvious that they are smart enough to move on...realize the follies of thier decision...c'est la vie.