Something to be Said about Gorean Life

Aye. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that the Gorean RP is abused in a manner that specifically exploits that sort of thing.

People asked how damaging such issues in SL can be. Well, some people make livelihoods of SL, as stated before. You can't necessarily up and alt that. Your name becomes a trademark.

Is it a bad idea to share personal information with a Master? Oh hell yes. Same of just about any other online relationship or friendship. It happens because it's natural for people to do so. However, Gor has something going on in it that steps that up.

Gorean Masters often order their slaves to divulge personal information against their will. Failure to do so often leads to RL threats, in-SL stalking, and punishment by banning from the entire Gorean community just because they were smart and wouldn't give a bad Master an RL home address or phone number. This decision seems to be supported by those who have vested interest in the community itself.

Slip's aside comment that I have never been myself in Gor is untrue. That's the joy of alts. Research before defamation. Having participated alttastically in the Gorean culture rather extensively, I can say that Lorelei's statement that Gor does not seem to police itself of its predators is more than accurate.

Can be. Isn't always.

Hell, vanilla sex games can be abused in that way.

You're digressing. Anything can be abused that way. Gor is just easier to abuse and tends to defend the abuser more than the victim.

uhmm.. you know ppl can log out and just make a new avi if they feel trapped :/

No. I'm attempting to point out the fact that your objections to Gor could be applied to ANY sort of intimate interaction.

This thread highlights some funny things.

Some stats: 10% of people feel rape is wrong in real world, 90% feel it's alright, 47 % feel it's fine to rape anyone RL/SL anytime and believe any rape of any kind is a-ok!

Teh funnies.

/me tp's out of this thread.

My objection is that Gor harbors the activity more than others. SO you're digressing.

Actually my post isnt moot at all. In all likely hood the odd's of an extorshinist type of situation happening in either real life or inside SL are pretty slim if you actually get to know a person before you jump into any kind of relationship with them. Extortion may not be consentual but the rest of the RP is and the girl can just disappear file and abuse report and if needed actually take it to court if needed. Acknowledging a threat online as a real threat and giving out personal info if your not sure about the person which in all likely hood if your having to leave the RP is the case.

There are some bad eggs in Gor but that means jack reallly. There are bad eggs all over the world are we just going to jail everyone up or ban everyone from doing anything on the internet at all? LL basically even state not to give personal info out. But its that person's choice to give out that info and their choice to acknowledge it. There is a saying I quite often use and it really does hold true. People show their true selves within the first 5-10 minutes of talking with them. Your post is moot as well except that Extortion is not consentual well.... for the most part its not.

One needs to acknowledge the threat as real and chooses to do that. But the rest has nothing to do with just Gor. Its baseless its way to broad a situation to attack any group with it. I still dont understand the attacks on any of the RP communities. People just need to get off it. If you dont like it dont partake in it. Dont try to take a few examples of some bad eggs and say that the entire community should be judged in the same manner.

RL threats from someone who is threatening you because you won't give them RL info.... think about that for a second.

SL stalking ... what are they gonna do to you if they can manage to stalk you? So what?

The entire Gorean community? A single gorean sim possibly.. again, so what? There are others.

Supported by others in the community? *looks around at the goreans in my BDSM community* ummm nope uh uh. One of the things we stress in the BDSM Forum is submissive rights, watching out for our friends and SAFETY. The Gorean's among our members have been in agreement with these policies in every discussion we've had. Granted we don't have a lot of gorean members but it does show they aren't all as you would describe.


To Lorelai:
Actually he did have an emotional connection to me, UNTIL he showed his true nature. My sense of self preservation was simply triggered and any attraction I would have had went poof. That is how it should be.

My point was that the tactics mentioned earlier can only be used against a person if they allow it. Contrary to the old popular expression, I do not believe love is blind, I believe we go can choose to go into it with our eyes open.

But anyway, I will agree with a few points mentioned by some of the posters here.
*Some people by their nature and their habits are more prone to being vulnerable to abuse or manipulation.
*Some people with the desire to manipulate and abuse are drawn to anonymous online environments where they can act out these desires.

While others may disagree with me and that's fine, my view is that the Gorean roleplay community and the BDSM community have developed a reputation for having more of these kinds of people simply because these kinds of people are the one's who get noticed first.

A loving D/s or Gor couple will tend to keep to themselves, stay among their own community and simply enjoy their roleplay or their lifestyle. Whereas the abusers and the perpetual victims will find they don't fit in among the rest so they are more likely to not only drift from one community to another, but to be the most noticeable due to the constant drama that whirls around them.

Imagine your local pub or bar for a moment. You drive by it every day and never really take notice of it, its' just another building. Except the one day you drive by and some idiot is in the parking lot screaming and yelling in a drunken fit getting himself arrested. You drive by shaking your head and wondering what they were thinking putting a seedy joint like that in the middle of this nice street, well there goes the neighborhood.

The BDSM and Gor communities are like that. Most of the time you'll hardly notice us, we're just there. Until some loudmouthed idiot comes along and gets themselves noticed and well there goes the neighborhood.

Its not harboring the activity really. There are people that are bad eggs. You can object all you want but your not subject to being involved in it nor are your forced to be involved in it in any form. Most people in Gor in general are strong. I think most of the time its some over dramatizing a situation that was quite normal and trying to blow it vastly out of proportion. There are alot of people in SL and RL that thrive on drama and create situations in their heads that really dont exist.

You object to Gor but do you think objecting to something gives anyone the right to say no one should be allowed to practice it because of a few bad people? There are rules within Gor as well that if actually brought to a gaurdian or a sim owners attention in most of the sitatuions that arise to real life threats or threats of harm inside SL will be dealt with accordingly. There are gaurdians of regions and things like that for a reason and in most of these situations the Master would likely be banned from all Gorean sims in general. Here is the contents of how the slaves feel about Gor and the premise by which they live. This was given to me by a Slave and Mistress when i was new to SL and she was a very respectful mistress.

slavery is not about suffering... slavery is about service slavery is not about humiliation... slavery is about humility.

slavery is not about pain... slavery is about being present. slavery is not about being used... slavery is about being of use.

slavery is not about control... slavery is about letting go. slavery is not about what is done to you... slavery is about what you do for others.

slavery is not about abuse... slavery is about acceptance. slavery is not about proving anything... slavery is about being real.

slavery is not about contempt... slavery is about respect. slavery is not about how you look... slavery is about how much you care.

slavery is not about denying your self... slavery is about being open. slavery is not about bondage... slavery is about freeing your spirit.

slavery is not about punishment... slavery is about discipline. slavery is not about being unable to escape... slavery is about being committed.

slavery is not about submission... slavery is about obedience. slavery is not about fear... slavery is about trust.

slavery is not about sex... slavery is about love. slavery is not about pleasure... slavery is about happiness

Most of the point there is true Gor really has nothing to do with alot of the things people associate it with. Sure there are people that abuse it and try to abuse weak people but that would of likely happened in that situation if the two met up in gor or in a normal relationship. Also as Allana pointed out you notice the bad in the community more then the good first. There are a few shady people in Gor and they are likely to be prone to looking for weak people. That doesnt mean by any means the community is bad. If you let a few people's actions make up an opinion of the entire community.

Its just not really there. As i said in a post in another thread or in this threads its basically stereotyping the entire group. Gor is just the flavor of the week to attack. Last week it was age players. Next It'll be furries or D/S as a whole. I'd honestly like to know where people come up with the thought process that it even compares to rape. There isnt emotional rape its called emotional abuse not rape and it can happen anywhere including the real world. Is it right and should it happen though? No its not right and it shouldnt happen.

But to say that gor is bad because something like that can happen is problematic thinking process because it then applies to everything because that situation can arise anywhere. Might as well ban people for just being people if people take that approach to it.

Allana:

I apologize if I misunderstood! From my reading, it sounded as though he was unknown to you and you shot him down very quickly. Sorry 'bout that.

Lina, you list a lot of opposing traits in your description. That's why this one really jarred me:



Can you clarify that a bit?

For anyone, I can share some specific things that really bothered me in Gor. They were:

1. A requirement that a slave deny any private messages
   
2. Requiring a slave to copy all private messages and share them with her master
   
3. Telling a slave who she could and could not talk to - both in SL and in RL
   
4. A master who deleted a slave's account when he decided to leave SL
   
5. A master who tried to guilt and manipulate a slave who wanted to end the relationship
   

It pleases me that this essay has become a staple of the Community. My own slave, toy LaFollette presented it to me when we were still in TSO over three years ago, and she added Many to it forming a Library of excellent teachings that i share where ever possible. toy wore my Collar On Line for over four years, and wears it in her heart still. For her, Enslavement was always a Positive thing, Ordering her Life, assisting her to enhance everything that was Good and helpful about herself, and discarding all that did her no credit. toy is a confident, compassionate, loving, and generous individual and i am proud to say i had a strong part in shaping her. I have her gratitude, and her Love and i am privilaged to have owned her.

Yes, our comunity Does have some persons who are Less than a credit to us (As does any Group of persons with shared goals), but not all of is should be Judged by their example.
The Stalker type Master that was Characterized above,, I have seen or heard of this Happening A few times, (In Four years of Involvement) and i can tell you, the Warning Buzz goes out Very quickly with regards to these disfunctional persons. Their slave is Offered the protection not only of One Master or Mistress, but that of MANY (I Know, i have Been one of those assisting) and word goes out among the slaves to warn and protect any New slaves from falling into this persons control. The end result is theStalker vanishing fairly quickly from a community that offers them No shelter.

If you want to Judge only by the negative aspects of our community, remember, YOU can also be Judged by those same standards.
No person is an Island so Guilt by association isn't Only something applicable to Goreans.

Angel.

Actually that was a note given to me i was just putting it out there for how alot of slaves feel because i was curious. Actually if the master takes the rules seriously he will work out an agreement with a slave before hand but again if he takes the rules seriously =/. Most of this should be apparent to the slave before getting involved and if they know about gor before getting involved they are likely to know that some things are required. If the slave doesnt like this they can leave and if a master or mistress ever asks for the password of your account report them.

As stated by LL earlier this week do not give your password out to anyone or anything. Most of these things are also made apparent to the slave before hand. One of them is preventable totally and would still be a choice if you gave your password out to whomever it could happen if the relation ship turned sour. Same with the last thing listed. People quite play off emotions in relationships to try and manipulate people. Some people are like that. There are a few bad eggs inside the culture but alot of them arnt bad people. And the slaves do choose to go along with that lifestyle.

People being manipulative are bad and those comments in that list arnt ones i made. They were given to me. In fact i received from 2 diff pairs of slaves and stuff. For the most part slave's love their masters or mistresses some on the other hand dont and they are likely the ones who got involved in it without knowing anything about it beforehand. I saw it happen to a friend of mine and i tried to tell her she didnt know enough but sure enough....

Very, very well written and more or less my opinion

I only would like to add: there are two forms of "rape" which are perfectly ok:
First, a rape scene played between a Dom / Domme (yes, lesbian D/s couples and FemDom Tops with male subs can play rough too), as long as either both partners gave their consent before or the Dom / Domme knows his / her submissive well enough to know that she'd like such a surprise and can trust her to use the safe word if it gets too much. A consentual rape scenario like this can even be played in RL without being harmful in any way (except perhaps, as Ceera pointed out, to persons with a damaged self-esteem or traumatic issues).
And second - something I learned in Sociolotron and had a hard time understanding first - a semi-consentual rape scenario where the "victim" just gives her consent to be raped in general, without knowing either time, place or the name of the "attacker", and without any safe word. The latter should, of course, only be played in an online role playing environment - no one would possibly want to realize something similar in RL.

The ape called Homo Sapiens needs the thrill, the danger. We live for it. People do all sorts of things to feel extreme emotions and / or an adrenaline rush. Some watch scary movies and thrillers, others ride a roller coaster, hunt big game, drive too fast, go bungee jumping or freestyle climbing... we need such things to feel alive. Now mix this adrenaline kick with the endorphines produced during sex and look at the resulting body-own drug cocktail, and you may get an idea why people like this extremer forms of sex better than cuddly, gentle vanilla sex.
While we have to hold back and take care in RL, we search extremer kicks in online worlds. Look at all those other MMORPGs which are mainly about killing and being killed (in PvP games). I never heard anyone complain that killing people would be a totally wrong thing to do in such an online game, while we all agree that it is completely unacceptable in RL. So, what's the problem with consentual or even only semi-consentual rape scenes?

One more word on the overall treatment of submissive women, which may look appalling and wrong to non-lifestylers, because "one just doesn't treat a woman like that". What could possibly be wrong with giving a beloved person all she or he needs and desires? A good Dom or Domme will treat each submissive or slave differently and adjust his/her role play to match the sub's needs. I've met women who claimed that men would always hold back too much, restrict themselves, be too gentle and caring even when dominating - so they rather trusted other women to recognize their needs and play rough enough. I've met submissives who were into extreme humiliation and worked on myself to overcome my own restrictions, to be able to please them the right way, unhindered by "one doesn't treat a person like this". Much of the dominant's pleasure results from fulfilling a submissive partner's desires, to press the right buttons, to make the partner happy. No (or very, very few) dominants could possibly enjoy watching a person suffer and knowing she (completely and utterly) dislikes it. Even punishment is adjusted to be within the range of the submissive's needs and limits. Most Doms and Dommes serve just as much as their servant.

That being said: the poll reflects a very simplified view on such matters. A BDSM lifestyler wouldn't know what to answer, because the real answers are missing.

No worries, I wasn't clear.

I will admit that my perceptions are most likely skewed, just as everyone's is. We all see the world from a different view. We often forget that. A person who has suffered real abuse will have a different perspective when watching an interaction between a Dominant and a submissive. I would suggest to people that when you (collective "you" here, this bit isn't addressed to Lorelei) see what you think is an abusive relationship between a D/s couple, that you stop for a moment and remember that you are viewing that relationship from the outside. You are not in their heads, you don't know the true dynamic that is going on.

As to these things:
This for many is part of the roleplay, part of the relationship dynamic. The slave or submissive is choosing this, he or she is consenting to this level of control because he or she wants it. If they didn't want it, they would seek out the kind of relationship where this isn't done as I have. I don't want to be controled to this level so I am attracted to a man who isn't interested in this level of control. Another submissive may love being controlled to this degree and so will seek a partner who wants it as well.
These however are simply signs of stalker behavior. This is someone who is not a Dominant but is an abuser and unfortunately they exist everywhere. Fortunately in a close knit community they are also discovered fairly quickly most of the time.

See thats one of the things that is a real positive I've found in SL. People involved in D/s relationships and I've observed in Gorean relationships as well, tend to congregate together, the healthy ones that is. They form communities which support each other and live under expected guidelines. So when someone is noticeably not following those expected guidelines, is noticeably engaging in unhealthy situations, those people are noticed and dealt with by the community.

In my opinion Corvus is simply wrong in his statement that the community tends to support the abuser. In the situations I have witnessed it is the other way around. The abuser is outted as such and removed from the community the majority of the time.

EDIT: Hmmm and now after reading the rest of the page I realize I just pretty much repeated everything Angelique said and she said it more clearly. Oh well. heh.

Is this the Second Falling of Rome ????


Rome feel Beacuse of the indencet acts .. The Domination( of any kind).. mass Ories ... Unlawful acts

And the blood Thirsty ppl ... As i have seen a relvance to the Goth role in the Roman empire days....

With all the human Deborury ..... and the slavery that was involded ..... Are we due to repeat History .. Real life .. Or Secondlife !!! Real life or a Fanasy role play that carrys over ...

Why cant we learn from our mistakes and learn from them .... Why dose History alway repeat it self ?

Actually, Rome fell because of decadent spending combined with military overextension.

Learn some history.

it may have but it started here

The Fall of Rome


Is the next second falling of rome !

With the Mass Orgies to loose morals.. it all started there ... then proceeded the fall ...

Do you History !


Why did Rome fall? Was it because Christianity weakened the bonds that had held it together? Was it because people became corrupt? Was it because it just got too big? Was it because of the barbarian attacks? Was it because they had started using lead pots and got lead poisoning? (Yes, even this argument had been advanced) Or was it simply that empires always fall and somebody decided this was as good a time as any?



There were many reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire. Each one intertwined with the next. Many even blame the introduction of Christianity for the decline. Christianity made many Roman citizens into pacifists, making it more difficult to defend against the barbarian attackers. Also money used to build churches could have been used to maintain the empire. Although some argue that Christianity may have provided some morals and values for a declining civilization and therefore may have actually prolonged the imperial era.

Decline in Morals and Values

Those morals and values that kept together the Roman legions and thus the empire could not be maintained towards the end of the empire. Crimes of violence made the streets of the larger cities unsafe. Even during PaxRomana there were 32,000 prostitutes in Rome. Emperors like Nero and Caligula became infamous for wasting money on lavish parties where guests ate and drank until they became ill. The most popular amusement was watching the gladiatorial combats in the Colosseum. These were attended by the poor, the rich, and frequently the emperor himself. As gladiators fought, vicious cries and curses were heard from the audience. One contest after another was staged in the course of a single day. Should the ground become too soaked with blood, it was covered over with a fresh layer of sand and the performance went on.


Generally, these theories argue that the Roman Empire might have survived indefinitely if not for some combination of circumstances which led to its premature fall. Some historians in this camp believe that Rome "brought it on themselves," i.e., ensured their own collapse by either misguided policies or degradation of character.



Vice
Lust (undesired love)
Gluttony (overindulgence)
Greed (avarice)
Sloth (laziness)
Wrath (anger)
Envy (desire)
Pride (vanity)

That describes me pretty well, I'd say

This is worse than LindenSpeak... you know - "Dialogue is silence"?

Among ancient civilizations, slavery was involuntary economic and political bondage. Your side lost, or you couldn't pay your debts, or you had daughters to sell - and BANG! you were booty. The modern world added racial and ethnic ideologies to that ancient mix, largely because psychological control and sociological justification became important tools for modern states.

Find another word to describe what you're trying do. "Slavery" is no less offensive because you're trying to twist the definition around. The word, and the concept, is already taken.

Actually, Rome fell because as an empire it over extended it's self both Militarily, and economicly, and had a system of Government while austensibly Semi democratic, Was in fact a Dictatorship without any effective means of Selecting the Best people to rule, Rather, relying on the whims of genetics to toss them another Julius Ceasar when they needed one and more often than not ending up with a Caligula. when a number of Smaller but more determined military powers from the north countries, Most notably the Vandals (Not the Goths) Managed to Push to the very gates of Rome, the Imperial Powers their Funds exhausted, and their Vassal states in rebellion, had no resources left to Fight.

What we in the Modern world View as debauchery (Communal sexual Gatherings, Over Eating Etc.) Was part of Roman society since it's Inception. Romans Prided themselves on their strength, and their Utter disdain for death (That of Others OR their own) and Slavery was part of almost ALL cultures of the Era Including the Cultures that brought Rome to it's Knees.

I Understand the Coorelation you are Attempting to make However your View of the situation that led to the Fall of Rome is simplistic, and Not Historicly accurate and has no application here.

Angel.

Well, this more or less went without saying.
It's called ia loaded Question. Clearer examples are asking someone you don't Know. "When did you Start using Cocaine?" or the more Classic "When did you stop Beating your wife?"
The questions Illicit innaccurate responses because the Questions themselves Assume facts Not in Evidence.
Nowhere in the Survey did the Questioner offer the Options.
-there is no rape in SL because everything here is consensual (sp)
or
-Rape is an Impossibility On Line

The fourth option is as close as they come but still isn't as clear.

It is assuming at all times that people ARE being raped in SL and so far the Factual responses do not back up that premis. and asks us If we approve of rape or Not.
The survey is Valueless because the questions are obviously Biased in favor of one specific conclusion.

Angel.

You make the mistake of actually tying it to real slavery. This is what roleplay slavery is not what real slavery is. Before you get into this again look at the post and realize i stated this was given to me. And you proved your thinking ancient/real life slavery which is not what roleplay slavery is about. In Gor its called slavery or a girl is known as a Kajira. It has no ties to real life slavery. You get heated sheerly that word and yet you fail to realize this is in research inside SL that is readily available for anyone looking for Gorean things.

They have a library where one can research Gor in world and this is how it was written. I did not write this the gorean community did and it was presented to me by both slaves and masters/mistresses alike. Please actually read the post instead of Skimming it it would be more apparent to you that this is what slaves and the gorean community feel it is not what i do. As stated in the post below now as well Slavery can also be considered a form of bondage. And bondage is part of the BDSM community.

This is the real meaning of Slavery not the made up justifaible Tems that others put to it to make things right in the heads ..

slav‧er‧y 

1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3 severe toil; drudgery.

—Synonyms 1. thralldom, enthrallment. Slavery, bondage, servitude refer to involuntary subjection to another or others. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master: to be sold into slavery. Bondage indicates a state of subjugation or captivity often involving burdensome and degrading labor: in bondage to a cruel master. Servitude is compulsory service, often such as is required by a legal penalty: penal servitude. 4. moil, labor.

slavery

n 1: the state of being under the control of another person [syn: bondage, thrall, thralldom, thraldom] 2: the practice of owning slaves


thrall  [thrawl]

–noun
1. a person who is in bondage; slave.
2. a person who is morally or mentally enslaved by some power, influence, or the like: He was the thrall of morbid fantasies.
3. slavery; thralldom.
–verb (used with object)
4. Archaic. to put or hold in thralldom; enslave.
–adjective
5. Archaic. subjected to bondage; enslaved.

One, such as a slave or serf, who is held in bondage.
One who is intellectually or morally enslaved.
Servitude; bondage:


moil
intr.v. moiled, moil·ing, moils
To toil; slave.
To churn about continuously.

Toil; drudgery.
Confusion; turmoil.

so funny they bring up the Term Moil .... To Confuse and cuz turmiol ... Hummm

So people end up not know which end is up and the false thoughts there are