Yay for discrimination in SL! \o/

Jonquille Noir says:

"If you can only buy clothing that your master/mistress will like, ask them, not me, what you should buy. Don't stop for hours on end, in the middle of my store, pondering loudly what your master/mistress would like to see you in, and asking me to help you. I get it.... you'tre turned on by not being allowed an opinion... That's fine, and it's you're deal... but that doesn't make it my deal, my problem, or what my customers want to hear. That's for you to discuss with your master/mistress. Please, please don't go around SL acting as if anyone but you is impressed with you not being able to think for yourself, because most of us simply aren't impressed.

What you do in private is none of my business, which is perfectly fine with me, but don't force it on me and all of my customers and then claim it's only your business.

Really, I beg you, keep it to yourself, and it will remain your business."


Your land....your rules. Good example of the REVERSE side of the equation when venturing Gor AWAY from the sims.

And Artemis, it's not required in ALL Gorean sims for slaves to speak 3rd person. Some slavers train that way...others don't.
At LEAST one actually has it in the Gor 101 notes they hand out, that it is not required, even going so far as to indicate "Tal" is NOT the sole preserve of the Free.

No, Cilis, you weren't. Its not brainwashing, its their own choice. Your concept of self as 'I' can be different from the self conceptions of others. To some 'this girl' is natural. To you 'I' is natural.

To try and say 'I' is natural for all is brainwashing.

edit: Tal can be used by slaves as well, I personally do the lower case holdover for my girls with it however.

Cilis Nephilim



Sorry Cilis... (and tongue firmly in cheek here)..... but in what way is referring to oneself as a wolf/cat/rabbit etc... erm...."natural"?

Sorry...couldn't resist...

I'm not about to ban someone from my land due to their sexual preferences. Not my style. As long as your sexual prefs don't include minors, animals, or unwilling partners... then I absolutely will not intervene. I don't believe BDSM or Gor involve that at all, though.

What I ask, though, is that you don't use my store to masturbate publically with fantasies, or use it as a stimulant for your sexual fantasies, because that's not what it's there for, at all.

very good point...

Bullcrap.

Show me ONE language where people do not refer to themselves in first person. We are BUILT to think of ourselves as ourselves.

There are cases where people are exploited because of their ignorance, this happens quite a bit with sexual predators. The sad thing is some of the most intelligent people are the most malicious. In such cases these people use their smarts to gain a firm grip on the people around them and get what they want out of life, the fact that there is a study, and science of psycology... using a few well placed words people can become great manipulators. I think what the gorean book series showcases, in its dialogue and its rules, is a how to guide on abusing women and not leave bruises, the preverbial bag of oranges that doesnt leave a mark when ya hit someone with it.

Turgar, I understand that is tongue and cheek... but understand me in this, furries do not refer to themselves as "this bunny"

We still say I and myself. The only recognized group that thinks their character has anything to do with their real life would be therianthropes, who have an indian view on it all and most certainly, don't 'yiff' in fact its almost completely spiritual and not a persona for them at all.

This group isn't a part of the furry culture, just akin to it, and has its roots in native american history, the only other thing you could refer to is fursuiters and even they admit that its just a laugh for them.

So no jonas, its not a very good point... because we still arn't refering to ourselves in an outside of self manner.

Sure you are. By saying that the fur av is more than just a costume that can be easily taken off to fit a private sims dress code, you are saying its part of you. And you ar enot a rabbit, dog, cat, but human, so wouldn't the default human av be more you?

Simple question, since you are so good at posing them to make your own points.

Does being furry even PREMOTE thinking of yourself, not to mention speaking of yourself, in a third person?

If your answer is no then guess what? there is no parallel you can make here!

Geez... talk about reading more into a post that what was in it. All I said was I could and would back Dmi up on the 11 year old boy incident in case anyone had any doubts about the truth of it. There was nothing more to be gleaned from my post. I never said all Goreans are bad. I know a few that haven't allowed thier fantasy to take over thier whole lives. Take that however you wish.

I have 10 of the original paperbacks. I have read them even though I found them to be boring and monotonous. I've had plenty of experience with Gor and Goreans in another 3d environment to know it is not for me. That does not mean I am not willing to help those who use the JEVNs, especially if they leave Gor out of thier dealings with me, which, btw, so far everyone has done. If someone needs help I go help them, regardless of where thier servers/vendors are located. If someone wants to give me crap about how I am dressed or tries to "capture" me, etc and wants to refuse another the right to my help, that is their problem, not mine. I certainly will not stay where I am not welcome, nor will I surrender/submit myself to anyone. Even NDN never could figure out a way to ko'lar, much less cage and hold me. Lord knows the man tried. LOL


In short, all I am saying is as long as people don't try to shove the Gorean lifestyle down my throat and what they do doesn't cause any harm, physically, mentally and emotionally, I don't care what they do. Just leave me out of it.

Oh, not all of them. :>

Oh, but referring to yourself in an outside of human manner is just peachy. Yeah. OK. You say we're brought up to think of ourselves as individuals, and you're right. We're also brought up to think of ourselves as human beings. >shrug<

thinking of self as 'this girl' = unnatural in your eyes

thinking of yourself as a wolf = unnatural in my eyes

a BIG parallel

Well, people have had totem spirits and pegan religion for years... more human than this crap.

Tell me, when did I ever say I personally beleave I was half animal? I didn't.

So where is your argument again?

Oh because we each see something unnatural... well at least no one is brain washing me into what you see as unnatural. Not a single damn doctor out there would ever agree that refering to yourself in third person is a sign of a healthy and functional mind... while furry might make a mind unhealthy, in your view, at least our brains still function and we still feel that we can have an opinion of our own without looking to "master" for a nod.

Edit: the reason this isn't locked yet is it would validate both sides of the argument, and would probably lead to both groups beleaving they have a protected status by the terms of service. this'll drag on as long as we do... barring personal attacks I think its just time to stop.

Cilis



I'm in total agreement with you Cilis.....the thread is now so far off it's original course as to become a mini saga in it's own right!



Fair enough. Now how many times have I told you to keep OFF the couch! GET DOWN!

I have to say.....it's probably providing all kinds of merriment to the majority of SL'ers, who are undoubtedly thinking "hmmm.....so the guys and girls who like to dress all medievel, wave swords and play Master and slave, are being dragged over the coals by the guys and girls who like to put on furry animal suits and play at being .....erm...animals. And vice versa. Geez...... logic outta da window!....
Signing out.

I don't think a single doctor would say that putting on a fursuit to go around and socialize was a sign of a healthy and functional mind either (be it in real time or virtual time), whereas the psychological societies in america recognize dominance/submission as a NATURAL personality trait of a HEALTHY AND FUNCTIONAL mind.

We don't have to stop.. we are in the right here, you are the one that is attacking the gorean players over your own trivial opinions and a few others baseless accusations.

The original point of the thread has been lost though..and Im going to try to rectify that.

Furries are welcome in gor sims as long as they can adhere to the dress code. If I didn't wear a suit and tie to a black tie event..I'd be asked to leave too.

edit: a wiki on submissive as it relates to BDSM and Gor here

a connected second with longer detailing on D/s as a whole here

and a good quote..

A functional and healthy person can go around in public and interact normally.

"Full furries" who go to cons, put on suits, who spend most of their time with other furs be it playing mario cart or having wild sex(*eyeroll*) can STILL go out into the public sector and behave normally and without being skitish.

"Gorean lifestyler's" Can't function normally because the slave girl feels skitish in the presence of her master, Fearing punishment for fitting in too well for his liking, feeling skitish without her master, because she normally doesnt think for herself, isn't suppost to go anywhere without her master, isn't suppost to handle money. A tendancy to be weak and submissive to EVERYONE allows for abuse from coworkers, too much of a work load, feeling uncomfortable in clothing or on furnature.

I think one far more interferes with a persons life outside the home than the other. I understand not everyone is as strict, but if we want to compair extremes I think this is more than fair.

Jonas, show me this report... I think there are limits on how long (edit: well, let me clarifty, how deep into it is considered healthy?) it is considered healthy, and actually being a furry is considered healthy too because it can ward off depression. Now I know light BDSM 24/7 can be helpful to a person with stress disorders, but I think that is about it.

Jonas, as far as baseless accusations... I beleave most of what I've said isn't made up concern the robes of concealment, third person referance to self being recognized brainwashing, things such as being nadu and naked in the home.

Its nice that I start making good points and you just ignore those, I've conceeded a few times already which kinda shows who is more accepting of others here, Also saying that I am attacking all gorean players when I am obviously not (see comments about people able to KEEP it purely online and out of their real life) so don't put words in my mouth okay pal? or wait, was saying "all" an attempt to get some support and rally a few lurkers out to post? you tell me.

Now that I've responded to your *trivial* (nice word that, thanks for using it) crap, I guess it is time to let this die. Hopefully though, those of us posting against the real life cross over of gorean play will get through to a few people sitting on the edge of the knife and keep their butts in online is online and not RL. You can say the same about wishing to do that for furs but really, "furries" arn't dangerous to anyone outside the culture or inside... goreans on the other hand can be dangerous to their women. (Yeah, women, I wont call em females because they're humans behind the screen)

And response to the edit, Bondage and gorean culture share a lot but please don't imply they're the same...

The military fosters a lot of people who turn into snipers (The DC sniper, JFK's murderer, a few examples) that got nuts later, many types that shoot their brothers or toss frags into their tents (again, true)

They also have mental evaluations... you can be rejected for having the wrong type of mind, one that doesnt respond to their type of training...

So you know what? I dont give a damn if the army uses it, it is still wrong and still dehumanizing, the military breaks you and then builds you back up in what they need, a soilder, not a person, as I see real life gor turning women into slaves, not people.

In fact my father is ex-airforce, ever hear of people suffering from "sloppy civilian"?

Yeah, its a mental state some people have when they get out involving how dirty and unorganized the average person is and it can drive a military man into fits of rage, he didnt have it but some of his buddies did and I've met them.

O M F G!!!


ROFLMFAO!!!!

If you say so Mr. Flintstone......


Sorry for laughing but I have to wonder just how many of those societies have members that are into BDSM, Gor etc. Of course they would conclude it's natural. I have a healthy and functional mind tyvm, and it is most decidely NOT natural for me to believe dominance/submission is a heathly state of mind. It's a control issue. I don't need to control nor do I have a need to be controlled. Those that do are not in a heathly state of mind. If they were in a healthy state of mind they would not need to control or be controlled. If this bothers you... well... all I can say is the truth hurts. Deal with it.

I am soooo outta this thread.

Oh just let me add.

Even if a personal attack is made, I am truely done with this thread. Anyone that wants to can plunk "gorean" into google and get plenty of information about how they treat women, in their own words, they don't even make it flowery or anything.

The truth is, The gorean lifestyle has a lot of parallels to muslim extremists which most americans dispise, most people in general despise, because of what they do to women.

The furry lifestyle has drama sure, but so do people and I really don't see much more happening with the average furry than the average normal person... trying to compare the two is assnine.

Wow. Having been a student-teacher (not, however, a psychologist) for a Human Sexuality college class for a number of years during college, the latter part of this thread leaves me with one sad conclusion... very few of you posting to it know anything real about Human Sexuality.

You're extremely judgemental to those who don't share your views. You're judgemental, and repressive, and a good example of the reason why some people are sexually repressed in the first place.

Congrats!

Because, of course, your vast knowledge of Gor and Gorean social workings means you know all Goreans and what goes on in their heads and in their personal lives.

Cynical as I tend to be, it still amuses me when people decry the use of "because of Example X, I can tell that all of Group Y are icky", but when it's Example A and Group B, they're more than happy to go along with it.

Who's your Doctor? Capt Kangaroo? ROFLMMFAO...it is NOT a natural state, and anyone who has ever seen an alpha male wolf try breeding the female out of season can tell you, he is not very alpha when she gets through tearing his nose apart.LOL It IS a conditionned behaviour in humans as no one is more dom or sub from birth. They are what they are conditionned to be.



Some of us know the society quite well as being the most bigotted that there is. You find one good reason to tell me saying someone is beneath you as slave is NOT descriminatory.



Read your OWN words....asked but not orderred to. That's the difference. Goreans firmly believe in themselves having the right to tell everyone else what is proper for them.

What are you my mother that you can tell me how to dress myself? LMMFAO As usual in the Gor mentality arrogance breeds yet more arrogance. Anyone with any kind of TRUE mastery of themselves finds masterring others totally distastful. I guess that makes the masters the subs and the subs thier masters huh? even more so since the masters are weak and in total fear of not being in control.

Actually, given what you know, I'd be really interested in hearing your take on both communities. But if you don't want to touch that with a 10-foot pole, I'd understand that, too.

Their land. Their rules. Don't like it, don't go. I have the same right to enforce any similar rules upon my own land should I chose. I may not like their rules (I think them quite silly in fact), but it's not really up to me now is it.

Also, the fact this all became a lifestyle debate is silly. Let it die people. Go back to your corners with your respective kinks and don't worry about how the other half lives. It's not your business unless they attempt to make it your business. (such as public displays outside their own little area)

*bursts into applause* Please, just.. burn the undead horse now.. please?

And many cultures in history had slaves, for just about as long.

Next.