Yay for discrimination in SL! \o/

I have no problem with a sim owner declaring a particular theme, and a particular "dress code", for their given sim. If I go somewhere and a local staffer tells me that my avatar isn't "in theme" or is otherwise "disruptive to the community", then I switch out. No problem.

What I have a problem with is no-warning bans, uncalled-for insults from sim staff, and being singled out for harassment on basis of some piece of disturbing art some staffer saw on Portal of Evil.

The "it isn't discrimination if you're a fantasy character" is moronic. Not ONE avatar on the grid is NOT a "fantasy character". Every single AV is an artistic creation. Even the purely human ones are usually fantasy renditions of their user --- not as fat, or ditching the glasses, or taller, or whatever. Don't for a second try and tell me all those bimbos at the dance clubs ACTUALLY have 15" waistlines in real life, buddy.

I'm white in real life. If I create a black AV, there's not one person in this thread so far who would claim that barring me from a sim on basis of black skin would NOT be discrimination --- but it's STILL FANTASY, because I wasn't BORN BLACK. I also wasn't born a unicorn; telling me I can't enter your public sim because you have a problem with furries is no different.

Like I said, I'll respect it if you have a particular theme going and my presence would be disruptive to it. Just tell me, and I'll fix it. If some guy sporting a wangdoodle enters MY property, I'm going to tell him to sock it away because I find it offensive. But I won't instaban him without comment, I won't insult him, and I won't go on some rant about things I don't like.

And Keishii? I haven't EVER seen someone who's a vampire, goth, mechafan, elf, or so forth been told to leave a public area. ANY public area. Why would someone who ISN'T being banned on sight have cause to complain? Hence the lack of complaints from such people. As a human, I've walked through gorean sites and seen ALL of the above wandering around without a peep from the admins. It's ONLY furries getting hit with this, in my experience.

God who necroposted this thread?

Everything that could be said here has.

Goreans have the right to do whatever they want with their sims as long as it's not "Broadly offensive" even if the fact that they DO do it is an asshole thing to do. Goreans are bad roleplayers, and they're mysogynistic pigs who'd sooner beat a woman to death than respect her.

The summary of it is, they CAN do it though they shouldnt, and they do.

No, I am talking about the brainwashing where girls who became gorean in game started refering to themselves as their masters girl, they hold their "masters" name as more important than their own.

Their is plenty of mind games going on in the gorean culture, and it works like a gradiant... yes people should defend their being, online or not, more carefully, but some people are nieve and fall into it before they even realise there is a pitfall.

Quite a few girls have gone gorean in real life, I'm sorry but loosing your self respect and willpower isn't healthy

You know, if you talked to one of the heaven's gate people moments before they knowingly drank the poisoned koolaid so to join the UFO hiding behind haleys comet, they would have said "I'm here of my own free will!" You think a brainwashed person, or a brainwasher is going to tell you that the people here have been brainwashed or I have been brainwashed? Don't be ridiculous, they're going to say, everyone wants to drink this poison, or mentally enslave themselves of their own free will.

Gor plays a lot in mind games, brainwashing isn't as sci-fi of a concept as one might think. All you really have to do is repeat a big lie over and over and eventually someone will believe it whole-heartedly.

Talk to a gorean slave girl and talk to her "out of character" (no longer roleplaying, for those not in the know) and see if she still refers to herself as "This girl" and her owner as "My Master", but that's even if you can get her to talk out of character, most slaves don't have a concept of roleplay and not roleplay anymore.

Could anyone post some writings about girls who've been a part of the gorean life style and left it?

I think it would be a good thing, in light of the discussion's turn.

Cilis Nephilim




Could anyone post some writings about girls who've been a part of the furry lifestyle and left it? I think it would ALSO be a good thing, in light of the the discussion's turn.

Great now I feel useful two in one go!


I used to be a Gor slave girl doohicky. Tons of brainwashy things. Emphasis on "there is no OOC", such as that. The ""Master" I had, when i was "training" Had a system of fines, and degrading behavious he would want my avatar to do. I went along with it just being RP for awhile, Until the demands started getting excessive. Give all my L to him. Give all my land to him. Delete my inventory but for what he wanted me to have. Give him my account PW so he could check on me. BUY him Lindens on GOM (back then...hey, a SLave is a slave, they aren't supposed to have money). Right around him wanting me to give me his password, I took a step back and said hells no. Told him, Hey man, I'm a guy RL, yaknow, I just play females on SL. He of course flipped out, "disowned" me, tried to start some massive slander. It was fun.



Now, from my furry side....I decided to change avatars one day.

Well, over the past couple of years, I've talked to many Gorean girls, both in character and out of character, and from my personal experience, they are no stranger than any other person wandering around SL. Many of them are witty and delightful to speak with.

Almost all of them understand what they are doing, are doing it because they find it enjoyable, and know the difference between submission and abuse. But just like with anything else, there will always be those that cross the line, or those that are vulnerable.

I've also visited the Gorean sims quite a few times, in my normal human AV with guest title, and have never, ever had a bad experience. I've found most folks to be open and friendly as long as you not being disruptive or rude.

Like all things, there are good people and bad people involved. It's their sims, and they can play by their rules upon them.

Show me where we have any sort of caste system or rulebook that puts down one sex or the other and I might agree that your statement is a fair paralell.

I dont just ask to be vindictive, as I mentioned a friend opening my eyes... I know a few people in gor that have been taught *there is no roleplaying* its real, and they've gone as far as refering to themselves as "suchnsuch's girl" rather than use a real name.

You do realize that the Gorean Free Woman is an honored palce, held high by the men about her, right? How there is an emphasis on ladylike behavoir, no swearing, not walking into bars, etc?

Then there are the female slaves (there are male slaves as well, so its less of a sexist system, more according to your personal bent) who can experience the ultimate freedom of womanhood, and all their sensual urges openly, without fear of society branding them as 'just a whore.'

Cilis, you don't like Gor? Don't go there. Simple enough, and I'm not finding a shortage of nongor sims..

Oh, and if you see me and casey in world, say hi to my pet too.

edit: all gor is roleplay. You can adopt the principles to your real life, tis true, but its all a series of fantasy books (high fantasy to be exact).

Thats more or less what I am talking about, roleplay? fine whatever just dont get my friends involved.... but when you start making my friends wack out in real life well... thats not roleplay any longer, thats what I'd like reading material on.

And they also say that all women secretely desire to be a slave and aren't really fully women till they are. People just say "Freewoman is an honoured place" because it makes Goreans sound less sexist, but the books pretty clearly state that freewomen are cold, deceptive, and unhappy, and all want to be slaves.



It would be less of a sexist system if they didn't outright state in the books that even though there are (rarely) male slaves, that they are still considered to be a step above female slaves.

And that "Slavery is freedom" sounds extremely Orwellian doesn't it? Ever read 1984? They call that doublethink which is the act of holding two contradictory beliefs simultaneously and fervently believing both. It's an important part of 1984's governmental brainwashing regiment.

Wow, it's true!

I wore my NC State wolf av into Port Cos, and it wasn't 2 minutes before someone found me on the radar, flew up to me and gave me a hard time about it.

Would that Linden liaisons enforced their rules with such efficiency and consistency!

Yes well, their sim, their whim.

Look, you are visting thier culture, and therefore the onus is on you to conform to their social standards. When I visit Morocco or a Middle Eastern country, I don't wear shorts, I don't wear short sleeves, and if its a more conservative area, I will cover my hair and head with a scarf.

Do I think it's sexist and repressive that this is the cultural norm in many places in the world? You bet. But tolerating that is a price I choose to pay for the priviledge of being able to observe and to a limited extent participate in a world very different from my own. The other options are to stay home, or go and get deported, or go and get incarcerated.

Similarly, if Fur Nation decided that ONLY furries were allowed on their land, I wouldn't whine that I used to be able to visit as a human. I'd get a freebie furry AV or not visit. That's my choice, just as setting protocols for a particular sim is the choice of the owners of that sim.

Yes their sim their whim (which has been stated 200-300 times in this thread)

But Gor is hardly a culture, as much as Star Trek or Dungeons and Dragon's is a culture.

Actually, they were considered below. Many female slaves would on a drop of a hat take a man to bed, so to speak, but would be shamed and have to be forced to do the same with a male slave.



Wrong again. Go back to the library and read some more, will you?

Actually Chip, I am a bit familiar with this "culture" and all such behaviour is just yet another attempt to control others and make them live by the way they see as right for us all. Thing is you say anything about thier attempts to push and anyone gets on them about it they scream descrimination. Let's get real here, a mentality that keeps slaves is far more descriminatory than those of us who don't want our noses rubbed in it and who refuse to bow to thier control. IMHO I have always thought the very concept should be limittied to it's own grid and not even allowed to interface with a general public grid. In another chat I saw them trying to train an 11 year old boy as a sex slave. There I spoke my piece, my own opinion. Let the hate mail and in world threats begin.

Actually Jonas you need to study more before saying someone else was wrong, because in fact they are correct.

I can and will back him up on this. I was there and I saw what happened. In fact I also reported this child being in a place that was rated mature, over 18 only. The people who had him there KNEW his age and yet they encouraged him to stay and be thier slave. Needless to say, that whole situation got shut down fast.


pfffttt.. So much for my promise to myself not to post to this thread. Oh well. It was bound to come out sooner or later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitri Polonsky
In another chat I saw them trying to train an 11 year old boy as a sex slave. There I spoke my piece, my own opinion. Let the hate mail and in world threats begin.



Selene Gregoire
I can and will back him up on this. I was there and I saw what happened. In fact I also reported this child being in a place that was rated mature, over 18 only. The people who had him there KNEW his age and yet they encouraged him to stay and be thier slave. Needless to say, that whole situation got shut down fast.


Terrific....thats GOOD. I applaud you. And equally, had *I* been in the same place, you know what?....I'd have reported it TOO!
You see...the point is, there seems a tendency to paint ALL Goreans with a generalised brush. And it comes from the fact that others viewpoints are widely different.
Fact: The Gorean sims are what they are.......that is NOT going to change.
Fact: The Furry sims are what they are.......also not going to change.
Fact: A lot of people are offended by Gorean "culture". Don't visit. End of.
Fact: A LOT of people who are NOT "gorean" like to throw aribitary quotes from the books at posters. There are one hell of a lot of books in the cannon...and like many things, they are open to interpretation.

Bottom line....simply because you don't always agree with something does not make you right or wrong. As things stand, the sim owner decides.
Now maybe we need to start a NEW thread as this has veered violently off course, and is no longer about the rights of a sim owner to choose what happens on his land. Now it has migrated into a "Gorean culture debate".
I had a furry arrive on my land the other day. His opening quote was "Goreans hate furries don't they!" My response was the same as it is here... no..I don't. On my land, AWAY from Gor, someone swings by in a fur suit, cool, no problem. Chat away, feel free. (And oddly enough, you won't find me degrading women, beating on them, abusing them, or generally being a misogynist).
Live and let live...
As Cilis says in the parallel "Furnation closed down" thread....



I agree with the sentiment broadly speaking Cilis. In that piece, some people take offence at onshow genitalia. One could argue, that furries naturally HAVE such showing and take the attitude shown. Others may say.... a person has the right to be offended by the sight of such.
It's the same in a Gor sim. If you are going to be offended by what is the norm there.. DONT GO.
Not all furries have their bits hanging out.
Not all Goreans hate furries.

and so the thread will no doubt stagger on. Force v object etc.

I never wanted to own a sim until I read this post. I'm going to ban all non-Furs except for gypsies, trekkies, and Christiano. It will be grand.

We seem to have moved from "should Gors be allowed to uphold a dress-code" to "should Gors be allowed to live their lifestyle".

Furries telling Goreans that their lifestyle is intolerable and that they should change. Hmm...

What people choose to do of their own free will is their business, Cilis, and if that includes handing control of their life over to someone else, that's their choice. It's their life and they can do whatever they like with it, including giving it away.

If they ask for your help, freely provide it and you'll be a good person. But try to "help" them without anyone desiring it, and you become, at best, an interfering busybody, and at worse, a bigot.

Cilis, you seem to feel the need to thrust your furriness into everyone's face and purposely offend them, so you can feel like an oppressed victim. Please get it through your head that nobody really cares if you're furry or not. It's your business, and we don't have any need to meddle in it.

What they DO care about is dicks like you openly defying very reasonable and clearly posted rules on somebody else's property, and acting like you're entitled to do so through some misguided concept of "freedom".

Musuko.

Dmitri, she is wrong. Read 'Marauders of Gor' especially in regards to a thrall and a bondmaid....heres a few other related quotes:



Why would it be a punishement to be thrown to male slaves if they are held higher than female slaves?

From: someone

"Male slaves, on Gor, are not particularly valuable, and do not command high prices. Most labor is performed by free men. Most commonly, male slaves are utilized on the cargo galleys, and in the mines, and on the great farms. They also serve, frequently, as porters at the wharves. Still, perhaps they are fortunate to have their lives, even at such a price. Males captured in war, or in the seizure of cylinders or villages, or in the pillaging of caravans, are commonly slain. The female is the prize commodity in the Gorean slave markets. A high price for a male is a silver tarsk, but even a plain wench, of low caste, provided she moves well to the touch of the auctioneer's coiled whip, will bring as much, or more. An exception to the low prices for males generally is that paid for a certified woman's slave, a handsome male, silken clad, who has been trained to tend a woman's compartments. Some of such bring a price comparable to that brought by a girl, of average loveliness. Prices, of course, tend to fluctuate with given markets and seasons. If there are few such on the market in a given time, their prices will tend to be proportionately higher. Such men tend to be sold in the women's auctions, closed to free men, with the exception, of course, of the auctioneer and such personnel. Some of such bring a price comparable to that brought by a girl, of average loveliness."
Book 8, Hunters of Gor, page 32

If a male slave is so much higher than a female slave, why can even the uggliest slave girl command a price greater than almost any male slave?

So, yes, the female slave is held higher than a male slave. It is also usefultto note that they wer ein such numbers in some cities that if they were to have worn collars, the Free worried about a rebellion.

Definately not few and far between.

The "Freewomen" and "Freecompanion" are generally considered to be upset and unhappy, gorean teachings say that all the girls want to be slaves and thats all they need to give in to if they want happyness. "Freewomen" have to wear "robes of conealment" which is basically a parallel to a burka, it hides just as much and has more layers in some cases.

"Freewomen" have to be escorted.

They don't seem that free to me, they seem like they live in a muslim extremist's backyard. They might as well add singing and happyness to the list and be a perfect parallel. (Oh, goreans have "honor" killings of family members, slaves and children, just like extremist muslims... thank god no one is SO stupid to take everything the book preaches)

Gorean male slaves are worth less than the female slaves simply because pack animals can sometimes fetch less money than a finely bred pet cat... doesn't mean much though because a gorean is suppost to value a mans opinion over that of a female, so the metal worth of a male slave is considered higher.

A punishment is to throw the female slaves to the male slaves because it puts them on a pecking order when they thought they were safe and just had to fear being "taken" (raped) at any time their master wished, or get punished. Its another example of a mind game. (I say raped, dispite the possible willingness at times, because there is punishments for not laying back and taking it, thats mental, and in the case of real life which I am mostly talking about here, physical wife beating to me)

MOST of the time, the female slave had more value than the male slave because she was considered a collectable like art, or like a pedagree pet... lovely how its based on something so stupid as appearance huh?

I guess my point is what seems like it is treated with more worth as a person? a sex slave or a slave made to work?

Gorean slaves are not allowed on the couch, or pretty much anything with legs... this is very unhealthy. We built things up off the ground to keep ourselves away from mites, fleas, stuff that our pets bring in... and you expect a girl to walk around... no excuse me, crawl around naked, sitting nadu and bumping her crotch into a dirty floor?

I can't bite my tongue on the "true" gorean roleplayers who take it into real life because it is so unhealthy for the girls, or has the possibility to be given the general rules of the life style... no one can stay on their knees all day, its a nadu-wide lie to say it doesn't happen.

Also, if mind games are not a part of it why teach the slaves to speak in third person, even if the rule is bent to only be required when they had a pressing need to attend to?

I can show you articles that prove the statement "All gor is roleplay" is completely wrong

Oh, and why we went into the gor lifestyle?

Because people went into the furry lifestyle and started saying how bad their encounters were... fair is fair.