Yay for discrimination in SL! \o/

"I'm saying that telling that group of people to "change if they want to come shop here" is discrimination."

Then so is "black tie only" and "no trainers or t-shirts in this club". Or, for that matter, banning underage kids from bars.

Avatars in SL are like clothes, NOT like bodies. You can't change the colour of your skin, so to discriminate based on it is unfair. But you CAN change your avatar, and discriminating based on it is JUST enforcing dress code.

And why do you think you have the right to tell them how to run their sim? If they feel that their course of action is the best way for them to achieve their goals, then that's their business, NOT YOURS.

"Agreed, but there are ways to preserve their purity without abusing other players. It's quite simple really, and its been mentioned here already. Lock the sim."

Again, why should they? They have an open sim, but ask visitors to either follow certain simple rules, or not visit. Should cinemas have to lock their doors because you don't happen to feel like turning your cell phone off when they ask you?

"they aught to be accepting of those outsiders."

No, they shouldn't. The only obligation they have is to let you get on with your life whilst you let them get on with theirs. They have no obligation whatsoever to allow you into their life on your terms.

Want me to put it into terms you can understand?

If you want Goreans to allow you to wear what you like in their home, you have to in turn let them wear giant signs that say "Furries are sick twisted faggots" in your home.

Willing to agree to that? Because I can knock up a sign and do it for them. I mean, after all, what right would you have to tell me I can't wear it in your home? You would be discriminating against my giant-offensive-sign appearance.

Musuko.

So you know the books like a bible hmm? I dont know any form mars, or whats spoisible, but maybe you should be a bit less anal about something that isn't even covered.

You might be shocked to learn that yes! furs can roleplay too, and sometimes better than your average "acceptable" gor community member.

We've all got bad apples, but at least we don't defend those jerks or close off our sims. I probably put 100 a month into the game in pure spending money, your gor sim probably has a bill of 100 or more, likely 200.

If you want to stay open and the person running it isn't rich your going to have to open up at some point. We know we're not welcome unless we bastardize ourselves, that we stop being who we are, so we'll keep our money, thanks!

"If you want Goreans to allow you to wear what you like in their home, you have to in turn let them wear giant signs that say "Furries are sick twisted faggots" in your home."

Well for one thing, that'd be ANOTHER reflection on the gorean culture about their willingness to beleave silly things. There is a large group of furries that *gasp* are straight! There is another large group that *gasp* is PG only! Stop me from having a heart attack here oh my lord!

Sure, have the sign, look stupid. So long as you keep up your end and let us walk around as who we want to be.

Thats what it comes down to, we're not shattering your roleplay simply because we're around, you let it bother you, thats your problem. You are making it MY problem when you are making me change who MY character is, that is the MOST personal thing you have in this game, the absolute MOST personal thing. I would never dream of telling you not to wear your outfit, your skin, your clothing.

Its their sim. They can have a dresscode that says 'no orange clothes' and you don't have a choice.

Most of the sl goreans Ive spoken to actually go to fur sims once in a while. And -gasp- they put on furry avs while there.

At least one side has respect for the sims of others.

Quit whining. Shut up. Stay off their sim. Noones forcing you to go, and last I checked there wasn't a shortage of nongor sims.

"Well for one thing, that'd be ANOTHER reflection on the gorean culture about their willingness to beleave silly things."

I'm a fur, not a Gor, you twit.

http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Musuko_Massiel

Seems to me that this thread isn't about whether or not Gor's should be allowed to set rules on their own private land...no...this seems to be one group of marginalised people (furs) attacking another group of marginalised people (Gors).

Now that seems daft to me.

"You are making it MY problem when you are making me change who MY character is, that is the MOST personal thing you have in this game, the absolute MOST personal thing. I would never dream of telling you not to wear your outfit, your skin, your clothing."

NOW I SEE! You've got a bad case of "hey, I'm different, and I want EVERYONE to know it...and I WANT them to take offence at who I am, so I have something to bitch about". Stop trying to see oppression where it is none! God...some people aren't happy unless they can feel persecuted.

How are you STILL not grasping the concept that if you are in somebody's house, you follow their rules? Did your parents not teach you simple manners?

This begs the question...if you hate Gors so much, why do you even WANT to be in their sims?

Cilis, take a good look at your venom-filled posts and see if you can work out why furs get the bad press they do.

Musuko.

Don't even try to be condescending to me.



So you are saying that someone arriving in a gorean sim with a furry avatar is the same as someone arriving in a furry sim wearing an offensive sign? I fail to see the comparison. The former is an innocent person coming to shop or explore, the latter is a griefer trying to be offensive to the group they are visiting.



Are you really not able to see the difference? If that's so, I'm sorry for you.

-Ghoti

"Don't even try to be condescending to me."

Well done! You spelt a big word! I'm verrrry proud of you.

"I fail to see the comparison. The former is an innocent person coming to shop or explore, the latter is a griefer trying to be offensive to the group they are visiting."

The former is someone knowingly breaking the dress-code of a private establishment, and the latter is someone knowingly breaking the dress-code of a private establishment. You know, I'm looking really hard, but I'm not finding any cause for confusion there. Maybe spelling that big word taxed your brain too hard. You might need to lie down.

Let me break it down into nice easy-to-swallow bitesize chunks.

1: I buy a sim.
2: I put up a sign that says "please don't wear big signs that say "furries are sick twisted faggots" here. It is against the dress code."
3: You wear a sign that says "furries are sick twisted faggots" on my sim.
4: I ask you to remove said sign or leave my sim.
5: You get upset.
6: You spell a big word.

1: Gors buy a sim.
2: Gors put up a sign that says "please don't wear furry avatars here. It is against the dress code."
3: You wear a furry avatar on their sim.
4: They ask you to remove said avatar or leave their sim.
5: You get upset.
6: You spell a big word.

Let's make this EVEN MORE SIMPLE!

1 + 1 = 2.
2 + 2 = 4.
Owners of private sims have every right to govern what occurs within their private sim, as private property rights and laws apply.

See me after class.

Musuko.

Erm, we dont force gors to put on furry AVs.

They force us to put on human AVs, or be punished.

This clearly shows who is in the wrong. I think that not every gor sim is against furries, thank god. I'll come by later to go into detail. I've talked with a few gor sim leaders about it.

Also, as for being a twit you're reading to far into things.

I didn't say you, I said that if the gorean culture adopted that stance it would show their maturity, basically. Whats that have to do with you being one of them or not? its a statement for god sakes.

Your choice.

Their choice.

Nothing requires you to be in the sim. It is not a punishment to be required to leave if you feel you cannot be without your avatar.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too

I see from your diatribe that you truely do not understand where I'm coming from with my posts.

Thank you for showing all of us your true nature.

-Ghoti

Someone intentionally violating the sim's dress code because they feel a sense of entitlement could arguably be a griefer.

Well basically the golden rule is treat others how you want to be treated. I don't ever want to hear any of you telling furs to stop being upset about this issue as long as goreans still feel mistreated when they're warned/banned about their relationships and excersizing them in public (not just sex, but I mean on the whole)

We try to accept everyone and let them "run with what you brung" and it works, generally the biggest complaint people have about us would either be based on a selected few, a bad bit of spooge art featuring a cartoon character they used to like, or something equally silly that 90% of us are not responsible for, just like, as humans in real life, kill each other, we are not all murdering slime.

Thats what irks me, the total flaunting of that simple rule that helps everyone get along. We don't make gorean people wear fur avatars and we could care less if you did, the golden rule isn't act as you want to be treated, its act against others how you want to be acted upon.

Most of the sim leaders I have had the pleasure of speaking to so far have told me that their general problem with furry avatars would be their clothing and attachments make them stand out, not their "race"

For example, most of the gorean sims are no fly... a good amount of furries have wings, this sticks out.

A good amount of furries have high tech guns, armor, or gadgets on themselves, or have their own theme such as japanese era clothing and weapons.

Basically, the problem I'm hearing is that we're using things TOTALLY out of place in the world, not that we're totally out of place in the world because of our avatars.

So simply I ask, why not just ask us to wear some clothing from the free dock vendors, and use only weapons sold in the sim?

Basically the answer I got was "because its easier"

Now come on, we're not all fifty foot, half robotic monsters with laser guns and jet wings... heck the last time I even saw that was in a sandbox.

Anyway, I admire the gorean roleplay skill and I shudder at some of the horrible roleplayers we do get stuck with as furs at times... so in light of this I am contacting sim leaders to speak with them as I have been.

I'll make a list of the furry friendly gorean sims, the "ears and tails" furry friendly sims (think neko girls) and those that are completely aggressive to anything but humans.

Come on though, lets all get along a little better eh? maybe Goreans would encounter less flak is they weren't giving visitors such a large amount themselves.

Lorelei, come on... be real.

The sign is outright attacking furries, calling them gay even if they are not, as well as sick and twisted. Its a clear statement of hate.

Wearing a furry avatar basically says "I'm me, this is who I want to be in second life. Hello, how are you? ^^;;"

Its not so much the dress code violation here that makes the differance in his statement, its the fact that one is meant to hurt and insult, the other is just as bad a behaviour is breathing... because we can all hold our breath right?

Ghoti says


Perfect solution. All sides are happy. Succinct too.

If you want to get all Hillel about it, it's "what is hateful unto you, don't do unto others." And I propose that Goreans do not see what they are doing as hateful. They see it as respectful. And in a similar vein, I bet most (there's idiots everywhere, you know) would try to fit into whatever other sim they visited.

I've spent a lot of time in Gorean sims, and I know that when it was time to leave for "vanilla" SL, people changed outfits. They generally understood that there was a time and a place for what they do. And a place where it is not welcomed.

No... you have the wrong person. I didn't say anything about a sign.

Well. Furry is a lifestyle and a culture, every bit as much as gorean is.

So if you don't want to be told off for having slave and master relationships outside of a gorean sim, then stop telling other people off for their avatar's race. Our avatar is a part of our lifestyle, just as your relationships with each other are a part of your lifestyle. We're not ruining your slave and master relationships just by being in the same sim you are in.

I think that is fair, otherwise I don't want to see a single gorean community member wax sadly about how mistreated and misunderstood they are, because guess what? you did the same thing to your "brothers and sisters"

Didnt you qoute the sign bit and expand upon it, I'm arguing the point you made in relation to that.

To be honest, I don't know that I have ever heard a Gorean roleplayer wax sadly about that.

As for the other, I was responding to someone who responded about the sign, but the sign itself was irrelevant

I'd argue that but you know I would *laugh*

I don't think our avatars are rude attacks on the gorean culture or setting, you might see it differantly, There has to be a better reason than "I didn't read about it, so it must not exsist"

I mean surely, the books don't detail dirt, the physics of fire, gravity and subparticals... do those not exsist either in the gorean sim's roleplay setting? Do they breath nothing when they pant during sex?

Really, we did NOTHING wrong to the goreans as a whole, maybe a select few did, good for them... dont hate the rest of us for it... the fact that we used to be welcome, and now are not, shows that it did have something to do with a personal grudge or experiance.

Eh, actually, the books do talk about gravity. But that's a quibble.

When I look at the whole thing, I see it as a clash between two strongly opposing world views.

One says, "My house, my rules, my right. If you don't like it, you don't have to be here."

The other says, "I should be accepted for who I am, anywhere, at all times."

I'd argue that Goreans *do* accept Furs for who they are. They just don't want them in their sim in that costume.

Let's turn that on its ear 180 degrees.

You don't want to be told how to look in order to be acceptable. On the other hand, aren't you doing just that? Trying to dictate to another group what they can and cannot do?

Its more of a "let me be me" Vs "let me be me, but you be who I say while I can see you"

Thats why we feel acosted.

Correct me if Im wrong but wasnt Gor supposed to be on the other side of the sun and 'invisible' from earth? I would think if you really werer worried about RP immersion the Gor sims would not be visible.

Sure, and you wouldn't be using computers, either

Eh, I just see it differently. I see you saying that your way has to be accomodated, even if it means trampling over someone else's vision of how their home should be. I don't think you and I will ever see it the same, though.

Cilis, guy who can spell big words...simple answer to shut you both up:

When you pay for the property, you make the rules within said property. They don't have to be fair, as anyone who doesn't like them doesn't have to be on the property.

So complain all you like. It doesn't get you anywhere. If they want to maintain a theme with everybody "in character", and looking the part, then that's their business.

Try it in the real world you two. Try fursuiting at a Civil War recreationist meet. See what happens.

Musuko.

Wow, you're pretty hostile there man.

So tell me, why should I respect comments like "Shut up" and "Big words guy"

Its pretty clear to me that you've grown up hating the "big words" and think they are just attempts to show off, shut up tells me that you've done a lot of pointless arguing (hey welcome to the net! we all have to be fair heh) and insulting.

You know, a lot of land in real life is held by people who think the same way you do max, and on it they gas kurds, or shoot children, or build weapons to kill innocent people... just because it is your land doesnt make your actions right, or you the highest power. Hopefully lindon labs still maintains some control over allowing hateful actions.

What, in terms of this topic, has been hateful?

Distasteful? OK, I'd grant you that. But not everything you dislike is hateful, is it?

There are health clubs around here that are single-sex. Are they hateful?

A Southern Baptist-affiliated church might not allow a Muslim group to hold prayers their sanctuary. Is that hateful? And Muslims don't let non-Muslims into Mecca. Is that hateful?

The Free and Accepted Masons won't let you into their lodge meetings if you're not a member. Are they hateful?