Yay for discrimination in SL! \o/

Okays, this has been going on for too long. I could speak of many types of discrimination that exist in SL and shouldn't, but I'm going to focus on one (and I would appreciate if you all do the same, we're focusing on one particular area of discrimination in SL here), because frankly, it's blatant, unjust, and it concerns me personally. What I am speaking of, is the fact that every time I enter a "gorean" sim to look about, because honestly, the gorean sims I've had the pleasure of seeing (for all of 10 seconds before a guard bans me from the sim) are very beautiful. I enter a gorean sim, and what's the first thing I hear from the first person I see that belongs to the culture? "Human avies plz."

What? Are you telling me that in order to take a tour of your *PUBLIC* sim, I have to change what I am, my means of self-expression? You're veiling the beauty of gorean sims to appreciative, curious eyes because you want everyone to have the form that we see every day in our (often boring) real lives? What gives?

Let's start from the beginning. Back when I was a young, wide-eyed, curious SL newbie, I was an anthropomorphic lupine furry. One of the many places I liked to visit in my early months were the beautiful, rustic gorean sims. I think there were only 4 back then. The place I visited most often was Port Kar. Granted, furs were a rare sight even back then in gor, but *NOT* unwelcomed. The average owner or slave I ran across viewed me with shock, or sometimes curiosity, which was fine by me.

I remember my first day exploring Kar, I ran across what seemed to be two officials of one of the cities then. I inquired as to why everyone seemed to be so shocked at my presence. They explained that mythical creatures were an uncommon sight in Kar, which is what I expected. I asked if it was a problem. "Do you bite?" One of the two asked. "Not to hurt." I replied. "Then I see no problem." And I went off on my merry way to observe and sometimes socialize in what I thought was an interesting, charming environment. Further inquiries revealed that some of the owners in Kar actually kept furs as pets, which to them, is probably a good thing.

Now, if you enter any gorean sim with so much as a spec of fur on your body (or scales, or whatever), its harrassment -> debate and/or cage gun -> ban... Can I ask, what the heck happened to the intuiging environment I once knew? One of my human friends (who was also often harrased for having white skin) debated with one of their "guards" after I had been banned (being a neko girl, tails, ears and all that jazz) about the justice of that action. Turns out, according to the actual gorean books, there are no rules against non-humans or simply unusual people. This is a new thing that they just decided on at a whim and caught fire like fad.

Now, I expect to hear the argument that if they own the sims, they can do whatever they want in those sims, right? Wrong. We still do have a Terms of Service and Community Standards. Discrimination is not okay in sims you own or otherwise, not by a long shot, in fact, in most of its forms in real life, its illegal. But whatever, I'm sure there's some loophole that makes the above not matter. But the truth is, those sims are *PUBLIC* ("*" for emphasis) sims. If you want to control who and what comes into your sims, you make them *PRIVATE*. That's what that control is for. If you want your sim public, then you can't go tell certain visitors they can look around and others they can't because a few pixels are off on their avatar. Or, apparantly you can, because this has been going on for months. This does not, however, make it right or acceptable.

All this not getting through? Then let me pose a hypothetical: What if I refused to sell all of my OTCR items to goreans? Does that seem fair? Does that seem just? Well apparantly it would be just fine, because I'm not allowed into a whole mess of sims because I'm not completely human, which, I might add, contain vendors by many gorean creators, which, because I am not human completely, I cannot even hope to take a look at. The issue here is, I'm not allowed to go someplace other people of equal status (SL resident) are allowed to go because I don't look like them. And that is wrong, very wrong.

Okay, done ranting.



Mew,
Ani

Unless you were born as an animal, it's not discrimination. It's the owner of the sim deciding who he does and does not want on his property. Whatever the screwed up reason for banning, he's paying roughly $200 a month for the pleasure of having absolute control over the doman, and that includes who's allowed or who's not.

Not a big fan of the Gor mentality or anything, but you can't really complain about the decisions someone makes about stuff that belongs to them.

Whilst I do sympathise with your predicament, at the end of the day land owners can choose to allow or deny access to anyone they desire, for any or no reason, at any time, and it's totally within the rules to do so.

Do I agree with the above? Not particularly... but that's the way it is.

I don't particularly have a problem with Goreans or furries (I know several from both communities) but I guess that many Goreans do take their roleplay very seriously in game, and I expect that a human avatar wearing a Star Trek uniform, or jeans and a t-shirt would be just as frowned upon as a furry, as neither particularly 'fit in'. Humans dressed in non-themed outfits are usually safe because many Gorean areas have freebie clothing you can wear, so you don't look too out of place even if you don't really have a clue what you are doing (there's far more to it than drinking paga and counting tospit seeds).


Lewis

They areb't public, they're private but allow visitors.

Sorry to say but it is THEIR land that THEY own, for example: if they don't want people who are left handed irl on THEIR land they don't have to because they PAY for it. It may seem like 'racism' to you but they can do what they want just as you can if you own land.


Their land is their world and if people don't fit in to what they want on their land then you could dress appropriately as they deem necessary. You wouldn't go to a formal ball in ripped shorts and a holey stained tank top and expect it to be ok, same thing here.

I agree. This presumably isn't a sim where the owner has banned furries just because he or she doesn't like them. (Which would also be his or her right, even if I wouldn't approve.) It's an RP sim, with a theme, and steps need to be taken to preserve that theme. And that includes, yes, keeping out things that are wildly out of theme.

99% of the time I walk around SL with an AV similar to my forum icon.

If I took an opportunity to visit the Gorean sims as a 'tourist'... I'd probably revert back to my newbie human AV for the duration of the journey out of respect for their roleplay culture. I've often thought doing so out of pure curiosity.

Likewise, while anyone from the Gorean lands is most welcome at the Shelter, I'd expect any visitors to respect our PG & non-sexual atmosphere, even though we're in a Mature sim. Like most residents, the folks from Gor have been very respectful of our environment when they've visited.

Thank you Enabran, well said

Its a PRIVATE sim, guest are allowed to enter if they agree with OUR rules. and the Private land Owner sets them.

Ani <3

Discrimination by any stripe remains discrimination; justifying banning someone from your land because... you don't like the color of their hair, for instance, when all they were there for in the first place was to explore serves to further nothing. What really strikes me as an oddity is that in these roleplay-centric sims is where they are the most uptight about av appearance. I'm a longtime roleplayer myself and while I respect the fact that they *are* just trying to preserve a strict setting, one thing I learned - "Expect the unexpected" - is never applied here. Now, be it that people slowly sank into this forced-roleplay rut or were forced to adapt to some internal need some something I'll never figure out, since I'm never welcome there.

It seems people were accepting, receptive and open to others a while back (and what does that do other than offer a rich, diversified and fun environment?), and then after a short time... someone decided their way was better? I dunno. What I do know is that the simple fact I don't look like most people is enough to ban me from some of the best builds in SL, and I don't like it. Nor do I appreciate being called a "griefer" because I will not remold myself in someone else's image.

And while I'm here, it seems that each one of these sims you go to has a market of some type, which must help support their operating costs in some way. Me - I like weapons. I like lowtech gear. See an interlock? Apparently some people don't, but at this point I'm sure I'll find somewhere else to spend my L$.

"Unless you were born as an animal..." I assume you meant that as a negative. Lets not resort to name-calling, please. And yes, it is up to the owner to decide who and what goes on his land. That doesn't make it okay for them to tell us that its okay for person A to be here, but not person B, because person A happens to look like a human. They can make what decisions they want with what they own, but they do not own SL residents, despite gorean philosophy being centered around slavery.

Also: "Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners." Is the answers.com definition of "discrimination". How this does not appear to be discrimination, I do not know.

"They areb't public, they're private but allow visitors." Actually, they are public. Private sims only allow entry by invitation to a group, and do not appear on the world map. I do still stand by the thought that if they don't want just anyone visiting the sim, then the sims should be private.

I see there aren't any that share the feelings I have about this. Let's say that at the very least, I'm upset that I'm no longer welcome at a place where I once was, even though nothing has changed about me. It's unfortunate that the nature of SL makes this such a "gray area". I'll never hold to it being okay for someone to ban someone else from an area when they were decent, did no wrong, and did not break any rules, aside from not being human.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. They're simply trying to maintain an immersive roleplay experience so it stands to reason that they'd request that their visitors respect that and not disrupt the immersion of others. Just switch to a human av when you explore there. It takes all of two seconds to do and it's not a lot to ask.

I didn't take that comment in the negative myself. I took it like this:

There's a big difference between discrimination based upon RL factors (Such as being Jewish, or African American) and discrimination based upon Fantasy factors (Such as being a Furry or a Vampire).

Since its impossible for you to have been born an animal or a vampire, your 'furry-self' is fantasy, as much as my white-dog avatar is.



It *is* discrimination. The difference being, this is discrimination in a fantasy setting, and I think that's okay. If discrimination wasn't allowed in a 'pretend' context, we wouldn't have fictional movies about sensitive subjects. What is the difference between an actor on a stage set, and a participant in a complex roleplay environment? I see very little difference.



I think you're streching the definitions of public and private a bit. They are indeed private sims in that they, by definition, hold a greater degree of autonomy from the rest of the mainland. They are indeed 'public' in the sense that anyone (who hasn't been banned) can go visit. But I'd say the public distinction ends there.



Your feelings are 100% accurate, and no one can tell you that those statements are wrong, as they're your feelings. I happen to disagree with you, but I respect your feelings on this subject as your own.

This is not discrimination. As was pointed out, you are not an animal. The pixelated representation of you in a virtual world is decked out to look like, well, whatever you want. You are perfectly able to change on a whim to take a tour of the gorean sims, unlike, for instance, an african american person, who can't change in order to better fit in with whatever joint is excluding them for their skin color.

Your need to disrupt a private venue's role play scenario based on some false sense that you are entitled to behave however you wish on THEIR land is a little hard to understand. If you abide by their customs while in their land, they will treat you with due consideration (most even have visitor titles that allow you to avoid having to RP with them while visiting).

Must we create things to be incensed about every time something doesn't go our way? When you go to the 7-11 and the sign says "No Shirt, No Shoes, Nooooo Dice" and you get kicked out for having no shoes, it isn't discrimination. It's a dress code. You should abide by the gorean dress code on their private land or don't go.

It's a shame that goreans tend to be the "best act in town" as it goes for role-play, I would love to see somewhere where I could assume everyone is "in character" and feel free to make up my character's back story, and have fun as everyone makes their story together, wether it be mideval, fantasy, steampunk, even Western!

Its not alot to ask of someone who isn't concerned about portraying themselves in a certain way with their avatars, sure. Unfortunately, avatars are not so transient for all people.

Having a fantasy avatar is considered 'not real' and so being discriminated against for having the avatar is acceptable to most because its not a real life nationality. But being banned from an area is real. Being denied access to an area of Second Life, I shouldn't have to note, for having something that is 'not real' seems a bit extreme to me. But, again, that seems of little consequence.

And this is not about dress code, disrupting the peace, ruining others roleplay experiences, etc etc etc. All of the above reasons are acceptable reasons for banishment. And, again, for the third time, it was not always this way. I *used* to be perfectly welcome in these sims, honestly, I'd like to know when and why that changed, but that's not what this thread is about.

Actually, I think I'm about done in this thread, 'tis goin' nowheres. In the end its a lose-lose situation. If a person from one culture is not allowed in a sim of another culture simply because they look different, so be it. But it is a shame, I really do miss exploring the gorean sims.

So it's OK for you to maintain that you absolutely can't change from being the avatar you are (which IS fake, no mistaking it, even if you are actually a cat using a computer right now) because it is so important to you to be so, but the goreans can't maintain that it is so important to their RP that they not have to see non-gorean fantasy imposed on their PRIVATE land and destroying the world they have created for themselves?

EDIT: and it doesn't really matter how it used to be, that has nothing to do with their current policies.

I agree with the response the OP has been getting on this thread.

The Goreans totally have the right to exclude whomever they want based on theme. I think Ani made a good point however (that was lost in the shuffle), about how the previous Gorean tolerance has lapsed into a situation where they are apparently being aggresively exclusive even to the point of being out of step with their own source material.

Makes me wonder what has happened in that culture to drive that change.

Just to be wicked though:

What if instead of Gor, the owner wanted to model a "Confederate South" sim? This sim would have the same inherenet sexism and slave economy of Gor, would also dis-allow non-humans, but by "theme" would also have to exclude any characters whose avatar appeared "black." "Black" avatars or any non-white avatars (which covers most of SL), would have to dress in a white skin at the hub or risk being enslaved or abused while travellling about.

It would be essentially the same situation, except instead of a minority (furries), those excluded would be the majority (the mostly not pure white population of SL). It would also be much "closer to home" in terms of a simulation of a culture.

Do you think it would go over the same way? Do you think it would be allowed? I'm guessing not.

Is it within the TOS/CS? Sadly yes.

Is it discriminatory? I'd have to say it is.

Is it welcoming, and community spirited or even 'nice'? I'd have to go with no.

That said, even though they have the right and can act however they wish to on their own little leased bit of LL server space, it isn't right for them to ban one set of visitors based on outer appearances and allow others visitors if all visitors are wearing the visitor tag they require visitors to wear when visiting those sims.

If a visitor pass allows one to just visit and admire the builds and soak in the 'culture' and delineates a visitor as such (i.e. exempt from that RP environment, just passing through, supposed to be ignored anyway), then that should apply equally to _all_ visitors regardless of their AV choice. I thought that was the whole idea behind their 'visitor pass' system in the first place, to show whom was not playing their RP and just visiting and whom was safe to 'club and drag back to the cave'.

But hey, if they want to ban folk on sight, for as little as choice of hair colour or the like so be it, their right, doesn't make the action right, just that they've the ability to do it and get by with it. Just makes me personally just that less interested in what they've to offer.

Maybe they'd be better off making their sims truly private and limiting access to only those residents whom belong to their groups.

Yes, the avatar is 'fake', just as the world the goreans have created is. Just like every prim and texture used to create a gorean building is fake, just like every prim and texture on my avatar is fake. The tenacity that the goreans defend their roleplay environment with is the same tenacity that I defend my means of self-expression with. Which, by the way, would fit very nicely into the dress of a gorean panther girl, aside from the ears and tail, apparantly.

Oh dear. You obviously don't know much about Gor.

Changing rules is one of the top-five activities in Gorean sims. The others being holding meetings, changing organizational charts, holding more meetings, and drama.

I think it would go over like a lead balloon, which would be hypocritical if the idea behind the sim was accurate historical recreation. I'd have to question the motives of anyone who'd want to roleplay that, though. People do need to be sensitive of other people's perceptions so given the obvious likelihood of most people finding it incredibly offensive it probably wouldn't be worth it. I wouldn't want to restrict their right to do it but I'd have no interest in visiting. I think the whole PC thing goes too far, like the outright ban on nazi iconography. WWII roleplay would be an obvious and benign reason for allowing it. I personally believe that's people's right of self-expression should outweight any perceived right not to be offended people seem to believe they should have.

That is exactly what I am saying. Both you and the gorean sim are making the same stand, however you are invading their private area.

As far the Confederate sim question, this is getting close to the inflamatory nature of Nazi iconography, but is it truly over the line....well that is would be for LL to decide.

What would people think if the visitor title came with a mandaroy base gorean male or female av and the request that you wear it or not enter the theme sim?

How do you feel about the swank dance club that doesn't allow people in based on sight in RL? Is this discrimination on the level of a whites-only drinking fountain? Would we really compare the two? Do you think the club is morally wrong for making these decisions based solely on how people look?

I choose to look the way I do because it is what I want to be, and never will I attempt to force someone else to change their image to suit my mindset. I consider my avatar a representation of my online persona, and in that frame, an extension of myself, and I will not change myself on someone else's whim, especially when I'm threatened into doing so.

One would naturally assume there would be many valid reasons for my removal, yes, but none of these reasons arose. Nothing did I interrupt, nowhere private did I go. Never did I resort to attacks, namecalling, or the like. I wore my guest titler, even requested it since I didn't receive one.

Apparently these activities, and the fact that I was there merely to explore what I considered a nice, environment-rich build was enough to get me banned. Oh, and that I have a tail.

At one point it was perfectly acceptable to inject yourself into the gorean atmosphere regardless of whether ye were gorean or not; those days are obviously gone. What force caused this transition is one I'll never really find out, seeing as I'm no longer welcome there to see.

And no, I don't find the concept of a Confederate South sim discriminating against black avatars any different from what I find gorean sims to be doing here. I find them both equally dissappointing.

Look, I'm not here to bash gorean culture or policy. What I'm here for is to express the fact I'm a little upset that they will ban me on sight for being just what I am. I understand the viewpoints of those that are "outside" the situation, but for those that are in the middle of it, all these things that you consider "not real" carry much more weight than you might realize. I keep hearing over and over statements to the effect of "... to maintain a gorean RP environment." A "gorean RP environment" used to include everyone... in fact, from what I understand of their own guidlines, it still is, it's just been changed at whim.

So, yeah. It's their sims, they can do what they want with it. Never did I say anything to the opposite of that. But what I am saying, is there is discrimination going on, it didn't used to be that way, and its wrong. Take it as you will. I know its not going to change anything, but I'm tired of being kicked out of places I used to be welcome for something about me that's always been the same, my simple appearance.