Yay for discrimination in SL! \o/

Considering its your private sim, you can do whatever you like with it. Especially if you put the time, energy, and forethought into creating a real RP sim based on Britain's bronze-age. Of course, you'd also have to mention that furries, Sith Lords, cyberpunks, glowing balls of gaseous neon fumes, and walking foodstuffs would also have to put on some default avatar.

I think you're purposefully using the terms black and caucasian (not to mention Nazi) to try and make a connection to real-life discrimination that simply doesn't exist.

Agreed. I was mostly just stirring it up, but it's a valid comparison to make. One persons fantasy theme is another persons offensive culture in some cases. If we are trying to be tolerant and fair we should likely allow anything that is consensual.

I mean we have to take the Goreans word for the fact that they are not trying to offend but merely follow their fantasy "theme" (and I generally believe that), so all it would take is one jerk who insists that he wants to model the old south and *not* because he wants to be offensive and you more or less have to take him at his word also if you want to be fair.

I think you hit the nail on the head by saying that if someone tried this they would likely not be believed though. It's a matter of credibility as well.

The point I was making is, if it were blacks or orientals being discriminated against, there would be uproar. It would be hypocritical uproar, but it would be there. You know it, I know it, Bueller knows it. Then facts would come out, and everyone would settle down.

Of course, an accurate rp-sim based on bronze-age Britain would be bloody boring, so it probably wouldn't come up.

Anisa, thank you for this wonderful thread that I think raises many important questions about Second Life and how we relate to each other.

Although the thread stems mostly from your personal hurt over how you felt treated, the overall discussion has wandered (I think) into a mostly philosophical discussion over abstract principles of right and wrong.

As far as those things go, I don’t think what happened to you is quite the same as minorities being repressed or mistreated in First Life. Although Second Life is very “real” to some people (and please don’t throw rotten fruit at me for saying this!) but it is still just a virtual reality where portions have been purchased by people who wish to create what amounts to their own little “pocket worlds.”

Rather than segregation or prejudice in First Life, it is more like someone choosing who is invited into their home – or who is invited to participate in a novel they are writing or a picture they are painting.

By any standard I can imagine, an artist is not obligated to allow just anyone who “wants in” to be part of her creative canvas. It’s a nice gesture and an honor to be allowed to participate in someone’s creative work, but it’s not prejudice for the artist to say, “This is the general tone of my piece; and if you don’t want to take it in that direction, then maybe you’d best not participate – no harm or offense meant at all.”

While Second Life might model many aspects of First Life and can even be mistaken for it, I think it is still really just an unfolding, interactive creative work. Prejudice is only involved when people are not given fair opportunity to create their own work in SL.

(As far as I can see, you have been allowed to create your own vision and the Goreans have been allowed to create theirs, and so all is still well within SL…)

What I feel is that you feel very hurt by how the Goreans seem to have “changed the rules” on everybody, for no apparent good reason except maybe because they’ve felt unfairly treated themselves.

I really do sympathize with you, Anisa. That’s not a great reason for changing who gets in and who doesn’t, and I know it bothers me when people do the “right” things for the wrong reasons. I wish we wouldn’t feel tempted to build walls to keep others away when we feel rejected ourselves.

Still, I would try very hard to not view it as a personal rejection, but simply as being an honored guest in someone else’s reality. You still have the wonderful privilege to change your appearance not out of resentment because they make you change but as a gift to people who have invited you into their world.

Maybe if they felt like we understood and valued what they are trying to do, they would ease up on their restrictions a bit or handle things differently. That would be my hope.

Staying in character seems to be easier when you're doing it in RL, and it's easier when there's a lot of people from the same background. I've seen some Trek role-play, but the Trek universe really doesn't have enough background on the everyday lived of ordinary Federation citizens (or if it does, I've missed it... though I'm not much of a "Trek Completist"... I've missed a lot of the shows and movies and only read one book... because I'd heard the author described the scene where Kirk dies as the most satisfying she'd ever written).

There doesn't seem to be a lot of literary genre fandom in SL as fandom. The population's small: if it was a city it'd probably be a good spot for a Relaxacon. Most of the genre fandoms are media fandoms, like Trek. And there's a pretty limited selection of media... you've got the Stargate stuff all over the place, various videogame and anime references... I don't know about western/detective/gothic/and other less fannish fandoms. Maybe someone into them could pipe up.

I think it would be entirely reasonable if the OP were to RP this opposition to the Goreans in-game, since it's one that's only relevant at the RP level.

Maybe that'd help with the shortage of RP in-game.

Actually.. there is. I've read 24 of the 26 books and the are the following types: spider people, kur, priest kings, and humans. The only furs people can play outside of kurii are animals, true animals with no more intelligence than a trained wolf.

The OP is VERY wrong in this aspect. and thsoe who would keep furs as pet wouldn't be seen as 'true gor' unless that furry adopted a normal human persona for rp. No nekos, no lupines..human.

Wow, you assumed way wrong. Way to be hypersensitive, though. My point was that unless you were born with a given condition, such as gender, skin color or sexual orientation, you're in complete control over it and you'll get no sympathy from me if your choice in self-presentation doesn't jive with the preferences of others. You weren't born as an animal -- you wear an animal costume by choice. I'm not discriminating (under the law) if I don't hire someone full of piercings in their face. I'm simply choosing to hire someone who chooses a more professional appearance. That's my right.



Uh huh. That's nice and all, but doesn't really apply here if you want to make some sort of argument compelling the Gors to let furries in. You can slip off your animal costume any time you like and be welcomed in their sim, as long as you abide by their other rules, I'm sure.



That's nice. I stand by the thought that everyone should give me free sandwiches and bottled water everywhere I go. Whether or not they do so is up to them, as the resources in question are theirs to share with me, or not. When you are paying $200 a month for a sim, you can run it any way you like.

Just because Target allows visitors to come and shop doesn't make the store public property. Same applies here.



k.



This is very simple: Their money, their rules. If you don't like it, there's nothing anyone can do for you, because they're allowed to do as they please with their private property.

I really enjoy when an OP tries to own a thread well after starting it.

Just a hint for all of you playing along at home: When you start a thread, you get to shape initial topic and the initial tone of discussion. Everything else is up to the community at large. You're still a precious and special little snowflake -- you just lose control after you make the first post.

I agree with Cory here, there is no need to make it a race issue as it is not about that at all and it's pretty pathetic and trolling to even raise that as an issue.

The OP needs to understand that if Goreans want things a certain way in their own sims then it should be respected if one chooses to visit. I really don't see why this is so hard for the OP to understand as respecting others and their traditions etc should have been taught to them when they were young.

I don't just walk into someones house I've never met and sit on their couch and put my feet up on their coffee table as I might at home. You are in their home, do as they would wish or leave...simple.

There's a significant entitlement mentality afflicting SL (and western culture) these days. It's annoying the hell out of me, I'm afraid.

I agree, I don't know much about Gor, but I do know they take it very seriously and I respect them for that and will not sit quietly by while someone who can't seem to respect others' rules/traditions spouts off about them being racist.

I wouldn't want to be anywhere on the grid where I was told what to wear or how to act (with the exception of following the TOS) regardless of who's footing the bill. My immediate reaction would be "bite me". It's just annoying. Put a big disclaimer somewhere telling people they're not welcome. Or make if for group only or whatever. Otherwise you're wasting my precious recreational time by allowing me to tp there in the first place and you'll have to live with that guilt.

LOL!!!

That does it!

It has been building up now for a few weeks now... but this little tidbit cinches it right up! I am now officially addicted to these forums.

It might be the meds I am on today, but I think I am in love!

Ingrid, I'm sorry I haven't been in SL as much lately. I'll try to log in a bit this evening and waste some of your precious recreational time.

If you don't have enough to share with everyone, please refrain from taunting us.

I'm going to crash some gor land tonight as an, um, "experiment"....just not the Panther Girls place, they skeer the bejeebies outta me.

EDIT: I just wanted to let Anisa know that this "\o/" makes me laugh. And now I'm laughing even more since the quotes look like little pom pons.

Have you never heard "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"? As others have posted, it is their land and they pay the fees to be there. In real life there are countless examples where self expression don't mean a thing. Resturants that require jacket and tie to get in. Your form of self expression may be t-shirt and jeans. You won't get a seat and crying discrimination wil get you no where. Wear a star trek unifom to a civil war reenactment event. I have a feeling they will ask you change or to leave. Once again crying discrimination will get you no where. They are trying to create a atmosphere and your form of self expression dosn't fit. As the old saying goes "reality bites"

In a nut shell get a clue. The right to swing your arm ends at their nose. The same goes for self expression. If you are at their party, the have the right to say what goes and what dosn't. If want to buy a piece of ground and declare it fur only that is in your right as well. As far as trying to dictate what other people do on thier land is pretty low.

Rox

While I do agree that they have the right to disallow anyone in the sim by a group they belong to aslong as it doesn't fit into a RL category (i.e.: No black people allowed).

I however, do think that it's more than just "perserving the roleplay" that makes them do it, it would seem it's a general hate for furries that a lot of goreans have.

You see, here's the thing. Pretty much every gorean sim has a countermeasure for perserving the roleplay, and that's in the form of "titlers" that say that you are an "observer of the city" and won't interfere with the roleplay. Therefore, these titlers were made so people can come into the city and run around without bothering the roleplayers or vice versa, they wouldn't even have to change clothes or appearance.

Here's where the problem starts when it comes to discrimination. Even when a furry or a cat-girl wears one of these titlers, they're still harrassed for being as they are. At that point, it's not about perserving the roleplay, it's just about a common dislike of furries and non-humans in Gor.

Granted, that doesn't mean that the Gors are anywhere in the wrong, because like I said they can ban any fantasy group they want cause it's their sim. But it does mean that this isn't all about perserving the roleplay, it's about goreans not liking a particular group of people in Second Life.

Not all goreans dislike furs, and not all furs dislike goreans

and now a quote:



I would feel no guilt about kicking you in a furry av from a gorean sim and banning. that guilt is superimposed by you and to put it bluntly..done blindly. No guilt here.

Artemis Fate



Hi Artemis, I strongly disagree. I rp in SL Gor almost exclusively. And contrary to your belief, it really IS about the rp.
Your post which Ive quoted from, is right in saying that there is a dislike of furries and non-humans in Gor. But wrong in saying that it's about goreans not liking a particular group of people in Second Life

It's a subtle...but important difference.

In Port Cos, the Law regarding ONLY human avatars, takes precedence over that requring a titler for non Goreans. When a city is working well, and the rp is flying, it's a buzz. When suddenly one is confronted by a 10 foot cat with a walking stick and top hat, then it goes out of the window. The main idea, is that we hope that visitors who observe, will perhaps enjoy it to the extent that they may think about applying for citizenship. There is a very clear, and RESPECTFUL card advising the Laws of the sim on entry, and the VAST majority of people who visit, happily comply.
Now PERSONALLY, an ideal Gorean sim for ME, would be one where there is a visitor area, with information on Gor Laws, and traditions....."staffed" by knowledgeable sim citizens, and where visitors would be allowed in whatever shape or form they chose.....the MAJORITY of the sim however, would be members only.
That's in MY ideal sim......However, I don't pay the monthly tier, and as has been pointed out in numerous posts, it is up to the owner to set his rules....we merely apply them.
In all the dealings I've had with people, I can safely say that it has remained polite and courteous...... and only twice has it gotten ugly. On both occasions, the person being asked to comply with the laws deciding to grief the sim. Sad...but easily dealt with.

I'm having trouble working out what the complaint on this thread is.

It appears to be "I got thrown out of an avowedly RP sim for wearing an inconsistent av, but I say that they let me in before". Well, any inconsistency in decisions is something to discuss with the sim owners, I would have thought, but one can't complain about being thrown out any more than I would complain about being thrown out for wearing a Stormtrooper av.

Incidentally, where would I get a good set of clothes that would be appropriate for visiting a Gorean sim? I'm curious.

I haven't read this whole thread, I got bleary-eyed somewhere around page three, but I have to ask something...

Without going in to my personal views on Gor, what on earth ever made you think that a group that RPs a society of which the most noteable feature is slavery wasn't going to be discriminatory in some way?

I could sell you some

Or, you could pick up a free set. I believe Tyros has a free garb, as does Ar. They're not exactly fancy, but they'll let you get a feel for it. There may be others, but those two sprung to mind.

Yes...most if not all Gor sims have a free clothing box alongside the welcome board. Basic garb, but allowing a far more immersive feel. Or drop me an im in game, and I can let you have the free garb by transfer.
(You mention wanting GOOD outfits.....in which case a good starting point would be Fey Brightwillows clothing)