GOR as visitor

Oh shush!

Mandy C

I'm Glad you agree the Lifestyle does require some study, and YES i agree with you 100% that one must learn by the Bad examples as well as the Good. I USE those bad examples in Teaching my slaves, and in answering the questions of those Interested in the Lifestyle. I beleive in REASONED Dissent because it Clarifies our position, and makes it Easier for people to See inside the Lifestyle.

I'm going to talk a Bit about Slaves, and their relationship to their owners.
A couple of Years ago, I was at one of the Independant Taverns dotted about the Main Map, enjoying an evening of chat with friends when this Girl entered. She was quiet, and nervous, she had been sent to the tavern by a friend, and told to Meet a specific Domme there. The Domme never showed up, and didn't answer IMs. Things were starting to get a little spooky for the Girl as several of the Gorean Masters began Circling like sharks smelling Blood in the water. I knew many of them, and their reputations for Collecting the Uninitiated. I stepped in, and swept the Girl away to a quiet corner where i could give her the answers she sought free from Pressure. I told her a Lot of things. Plainly Put, i Scared the hell out of her, But i scared her by telling her the truth about us. I told her what it could be like if she chose well, and what it would be like if she chose Badly. During the course of our Chat it was necesary for me to growl at a Master who was getting Too inquisitive, I Scared him off (So much for Gor Mistress's being Powerless). At the end of it i Offered her a simple choice, Train with me, No Collar, no strings, she would be Free to go any time, but as long as she Stayed, she would learn along side my Girls and be subject to My Rule.
She said "I'm not sure if i trust you."
I said "Good, I've not asked you to. I've only asked you to learn from me, trust comes later."
After a couple of months, she Asked for My collar, and she had learned enough, i thought she was Good enough to have it.

I've said before, I'm not a Role Player, I'm a Lifestyler. I have trained People On Line, So well that they have chosen to Go RL in thier own Cities. The Reports i got back were that they did So Wellat their First RL acitvities, that their RL Trainers found it hard to believe that their Only Training had been On Line. Personally, i don't think that makes a difference because being a Good slave, OR a Good Dom/me is NOT found in the Physical. it's Not the clothing you Wear, or the language you Speak, it isn't in the Poses and Positions. It's NOT the form, It's the Content. It's in your Heart, and In your Mind.

A Slave isn't a disfunctional Person, They are Not Weak, and they are Not Broken. A slave who Fits that description has no real value as a slave because they are high maintenance, and must be Micromanaged every second. What is the Point of having a slave that is Incapable of Independant Action.have you EVER really thought how much strength, and courage it takes to Entrust yourself to someone as completely as the slave does to her owner? Probably Not.
A GOOD slave has Fire. A strong will, an ability to Think for herself, and ability to ACT on her owners best Interests Without needing to check First. A Slave KNOWS her value, and is Proud of it. She has a Sense of pride in REAL accomplishments and that comes from knowing the Phrase "Good Enough" doesn't apply to anything she does. Each time she acheives something, her bar is set a Little higher, and she wants to keep Reaching. She wants to because she Has someone who Tells her, despite herself "You Can".

Now Not every person IS suited to this sort of life. Most who come looking are Similar in Intent to the Multitude of Role Play Masters and Mistress's they are just after a Little Kinky Sex. As soon as it starts looking like work, they bail. Some are simply too Self Absorbed, and they never make good slaves They can't properly serve another if All they Concern themselves with IS Themselves. Some who look DO have Issues, and they are Easy prey for "collectors" Dom/mes who measure their success by the quantity of toys they have aquired rather than by the acheivements they make with a Single girl. If you are skilled You can spot the ones with emotional issues fairly early on, and i tend to Dissuade them Most strongly from Taking part in the Lifestyle. I'll assist them as a Friend, but i won't train them.

My slaves Serve Me, But, as any Tiger Trainer could tell you, Just because I Pet them, That doesn't mean it's safe for You. Talk down to my Girls, Treat them with Disrespect. As fast as Any free Woman (And maybe faster because their Mistress expects it) They would Tear your head Clean Off. They have Self Respect, They Know their Value as a person because I've taken the Time to Show them. Is it Strictly according to Gor Books? No, but then I live in the Real World and it's THIS World I'm preparing my babies to Meet head on. I have Taught them to Evaluate Everything, Even Me, because I'm not afraid of what they will see when they look at me. I keep my slaves for Years when others Measure their relationships in Weeks, or months, so i Think i'm doing something Right.

I have years of Experience doing what i do, I can discuss this for hours and not even scratch the surface of what I've learned, and am STILL learning. I hope Some of you Find this useful. Some won't, because it's simply too involved for them but as long as it helps even One, I'm Content.

Angel.

Oh, One more thing,
The Veil is Optional on about 85% of the Gorean Sims.

A.

Giannia - that was fantastic. Great disection of plot and intent. Thank you. Unfortunatley, it may very well fall on deaf ears.

You're Correct, it's a Common Practice for people to Only read, and retain that which reenforces thier own prejudices, Context and Content are Irrelivant as long as it Appears to support them.

Someone previously mentioned That the Novels of John Norman were hardly Literature in it's Highest form. I Agree, and i think you would be Hard Pressed to Find Any Gorean who Really thinks Normans Purple Prose is worthy of a Place alongside Longfellow, or Shakespeare. In short, It's Pulp. (The B.C. Science Fiction Association actually gave him an award in the Mid 80's for the Greatest disservice to the genre of sci-Fi Literature That Year). That doesn't really Matter much as it's the SETTING that has caught peoples Imagination, Not the Various Passages Norman has chosen to Plagerize from his own previous Books.

It doesn't do any Good really to point out "Well, the Books aren't even that well written" The Average Gorean response to that would be "There is no need to state the Incredibly Obvious, the Merely Obvious will do". None of us has ever claimed the Books are anything more than they are.
Again, people are Obsessing on Form, when it's the Content that Matters. Norman, despite his Literary failings had created a Unique World. It's a pretty rich backdrop, even if he didn't have the skills to Really do it Justice. It's That World that the Goreans Explore. The fact that the Books aren't well written is Really a Matter of the Purest Irrelevance.

Angel.

Angel, so long as you're having fun and not hurting anyone, fine and dandy!! But could you possibly explain the curiously random sprinklings of capital letters in your posts? Are you suffering maybe from 'sticky keyboard syndrome'?

As an aside to my original objection to Norman's books, you argue that he has 'set a trap', and that the big ol' meanie who raised up those girls to be rape and killed gets deposed anyhow. This sadly in no way detracts from the fact that a lot of people do get their jollies from reading such stuff. That the perp cops it later is irrelevant to them. The books, and the philosophies they contain, are muck, and there's only one fitting place for that stuff.

After reading the earlier parts of this thread, and knowing nothing about Gor, I thought I'd take a look round. So I duly typed Gor into the search box and off I went.

A couple of places handed out copious notes on what you should and shouldn't do, which I duly read, but offered no obvious place to get the Visitor Tag. A couple of other places allowed you to TP straight in, which I was a bit nervous about, so duly left.

The last place I came to (sorry, don't recall the name) offered a simple notecard with instructions, and duly presented me with a beautiful lavender long ladies dress with long gloves, which I put on, which I believe is a Free Woman's outfit, although please correct me if I am wrong. It is so nice I will probably wear it again. I also saw some really nice silks, which I think are for slaves? Anyway, it offered the option to TP to an observer platform, which was kind of like looking down through the clouds. Unfortunately, there wasn't much happening, well, nothing in fact!

At this point I ran out of time, but will definitely go back for another look.

Most of the observer tags are embedded in the notecards. If not if you have a titler, just make your own. I've been looking around a few myself, but not much was happening. There are some really beautiful sims, and I bought some lovely dresses at one of the shops. As far as the whole debate goes, I remember trying to read the books in the day, but found them to be pretty mediocre, I didn't even finish the first one. As far as RPing it in SL, like everything else, if that's your bag, jump into it. As for living the lifestyle in RL, it could be harmful in the extreme, but so can just about anything. In either case I'm not one to judge people.

Sadly, Norman's attitude it seems, and that of the books, changed pretty clearly around the ninth book, Marauders of Gor, along with the ultimate rejection of Tarl's soft, weak earth concepts of mercy- that hardening and embrace of gorean ideals miraculously curing him of the poison that crippled him. Things look ok for a bit, because it's mostly a lot of fighting (vikings! rawr!) and being manly, with the next book (Tribesmen) being a rip-roaring adventure of Spartan tenacity- both books improved by the lack of much dealing with kajirae.

Then you get to Slave Girl of Gor, and really, anything referencing the proud, harsh nobility of the early books, looks like a huge bait and switch.

I'm not convinced it's trust. I think a lot of it stems from fear of responsibility, fear one's own sexuality, the need to feel "wanted" at all costs. Strength and courage are what's needed to make us accept our own freedom. Far easier to hide in relationships enforced by philosophy than to treat everyone as worthy of respect.

Point of curiosity: is your first language one that capitalises nouns? German?




Good good, that thing has a history of oppression attached to it. Much like slavery, really.




Every oppressing group in history has seen itself as noble, so it could be supported I suppose that Gor thinks of itself as noble and golden even when it's just a faux-historical RPG with some overlap into rape or slavery fantasy. The arrogance of the SL Gorean does fit what such people would be like if they existed. So kudos to anyone who's made their character act like that even though it makes them less likeable. But only if it's deliberate.

I don't think there is any question that Norman's view changed over the 40 years during which he was writing the Gor books. Duh.

I personally roleplay in a Gor that didn't evolve beyond the end of Marauders. In my view, we are still rebuilding Koroba.

One of the greatest things I enjoy about Second Life is the diversity of sub and counter cultural environments people have crafted for themselves, and others, to enjoy. If I wander into some new territory, I'm just as wary and careful as I would be in RL...only safe in the knowledge that whatever happens, I'll be able to tp out in an eyeblink - with only my boots up my *ss at the other end to pay for it.
I don't like vampires. I think they're boring, filled with self-absorbed angst, and generally a bit tiresome in their soap-operish drama. But I still like to occasionally visit vamp sims because the gothic architecture is kinda cool...and hey, what's there NOT to like about rivers and fountains of blood? *laugh* I even have *gasp* friends who are mostly-immortal, bloodsucking, black-clad figures who pose meaningfully in the shadows with their glittering red eyes.
I could go on for DAYS about what I think about the psychological componentry that drives someone to imagine such a Second Life experience...but why? They ENJOY themselves. They have fun. The bite...and get bitten...and people burst into flames...and others are turned into thrall-like vessels to do another's ebil bidding...yadda yadda yadda.
Vamps, Goreans, Werewolves, Furries, Dragons...and yes everyone on SL is living in a consensual fantasy. If you don't like theirs...don't GO there...but when someone asks for a bit of advice on how to enter such a place...respectfully, and curiously, feel free to warn them...but if you want to spout your half-baked freudian analysis of their kink...perhaps you can start another thread?
Passing judgement on someone else's predilections only indicates that anything that doesn't make sense to you, is somehow worthless to everyone. Which is, most obviously, not the case.

Chav, and Pixel:
I know, my Tendancy to Cap in Places sometimes Confuses people, If, in Reading you add Emphasis to the Capped words, some of my Emotional Meaning comes through. I am of French Extraction Not German If That makes any Difference, It's just, this seems a Little more Natural to me.

Chav, you have My Posts Mixed with someone Elses, though i see your point with regard to That Novel in Particular. Most Tales in Literature contain some elements that can be considered Distasteful, Immoral, what-Have-You, and Yes, there will be people who Fixate on those Aspects. The Overall Message of that Book was the Actions of the Antagonist Were Wrong, even by Gorean Standards.
I've been to an Art Gallery where a series of Painted Nudes were being Displayed. Tasteful, Rubenesque Styled, Nothing particularly erotic, However when i was coming into the Display Security was Ejecting a Man who had been aparently,, (How to put this delicately?),, Manually Stimulating Himself at the sight of them.
Some People who Read Novels in the Horror genre can generally recount the Various scenes within of Death, Mayhem, and Torture, but have difficulty recounting the background and Motivations of the Protagonists. The More Vivid the scene, the More likely it is to Stick in their minds. The Message behind it, If any is Lost on them. Unfortunately the Artist can Only present the Material, what You choose to take away from it is Purely your Own Responsibility, and I always thought it was a Very Telling thing about the Psyche of the Person Viewing the Art.
My Auntie always said "People Judge the World By thier Own Example" Meaning they ascribe their Own Motivations and Moral, and ethical failings to Others.
I've read All the Gorean Novels and Been in the D/s Lifestyle for my entire adult life, and Come away with a Solid method of Doing Good for Other people One Person at a time. I've Discarded the other aspects as irrelevant, because to My life, they ARE.


It's a Pity only the Most Negative Possible connotation is the One that seems Most Likely to you.
FEAR of Responsibility?? I don't know where you get that from, Slaves have a Very Great Responsibility, It's paramount in their Lives, Their responsibility is to Please their owner. Their owner is their First thought Upon Waking, and their Final comforting thought as they Pass into Sleep. Responsibility To, and For thier owner Effects their Every decision. "Master/Mistress Comes First" "Would Master/Mistress Approve?/ Be Proud?"
Not many people Have what it Takes to be that Selfless, and generous of spirit.

The Effects I've had on my Girls RL, Because they have Trusted me; Two are Attending School again. One has Ceased her Pattern of destructive Drinking (She is also One who is Back in school) One with an Eating Disorder, i have provided Light Nutritious recipe's that she can Stomach Easier making her recovery that much Easier.
They AND their Families have been Grateful for the help I've provided in their Lives (I've been in direct contact with Parents and Partners of My Girls at times). They COULD have walked away from me at any time, But i've Shown them That i have Fairly Sound Judgement. These people Have Familial Relationships, and Most are Very Close. Not the disaffected Loners that you seem to believe Most slaves are. The process is Delicate, it Cannot be Pushed or Forced, but Trust is By Far the Strongest Factor that Binds my Girls to me. I've Seen the other Methods, and in my Less experienced days Used and Discarded them. The Kind of Loyalty i Get from my babies simply Cannot be obtained at the Heel of a Boot. It's a velvet Wrapped Steel Glove. The strength is there IF Needed, But it's Cushioned. It isn't Strength for Strengths sake, it Has a Point, and a Purpose. I May get what i want at the Moment By Force, But in the Long Term i WILL lose control, They will Rebel, and they will Run and i will Ultimately have Failed THEM, and Accomplished Nothing. I have no such Concerns with My Methods because Once i have their Trust their Loyalty is assured and i can take them Anywhere they have the Potential to go.
My Dominance of my Girls Lives has Benifit For Them, as well as Myself. It Has to, or it is, In my Opinion a Waste of Time.

You want to believe it Takes Strength to be Free, In Many Cases, Yes, When someone is Trying to Take your Freedom From you By Force, when Someone is Being Unjust. But How much strength and Bravery does it Take to Follow the Herd? When Everyone around you is Screaming "No responsibilities" "No Obligations to Any but Yourself" How much strength does it take to Go along? How much Bravery to Agree with Everyone around you? On the Other Hand, In the Face of All that Peer Pressure, How strong do you Have to be to Place yourself completely in the care of another? To Place anothers Interests Far above your Own? It Takes a Lot of Guts to do that. Do you think It was Easy for My girl to Introduce me to her Mother? Her Mother had No exposure to this Lifestyle At All, and suddenly Discovers her daughter Has given herself as slave to another. There was All the expected trepidation on her Mothers Part, there Was the Inevitable Discussion between them. But she Faced it.
My Girl had the Fortitude to Tell Her Mother, "This is what i am, and it's a Good Thing". I'm Pleased to say, that after a relatively short time, Seeing the results I've had with her Daughter, and the Obvious care with which i Obtained those results, Her Mother has Agreed this Is a Good thing.
My Girl is Proud, of the things she has Acheived with my guidance, and Rightfully So, But We are not Done Yet. I'm Not going to Let her sit Back and say "Good enough" If i had let her do that already, She wouldn't have had so much to be Proud of.

Now, All i have to reallly say is, If this doesn't Seem to Fit your Conception of that a D/s relationship Is, You Might Consider that you, and Not I have the wrong Idea, as I and my Girls are the Ones Living it, and you are Merely Observing from Outside. I Welcome your Questions, and your Challenges because it Gives me a Chance to Put things to you Openly, To show you we Rally have Nothing to Hide. But i Hope in raising these questions You are Just as prepared to accept what i Tell you with an Open Mind. I'm Ready for your Questions, But you have to be Just as ready to Hear My Answers.

Angel.

I think it's good to be clear about things like that- whether you base your roleplay on nine Gor novels that John Norman wrote, or whether you base them on the other 16 Gor novels that John Norman wrote. I could argue that the whole moral perspective of the first eight or so books was more a reflection of the protagonist's earth-centric perspective as a literary device, than through any intention to decry those practices as unacceptable. Let's not forget that these stories, within the fiction, are written accounts by Tarl, left for another to publish. But you know, I'm not big on literary theory, and John Norman isn't really worth it.

I will say this- on Gor, an earth woman must expect to be raped, beaten, and humiliated into unquestioning obedience. No gentle matriarch will take them aside and explain to them the beauty of submission, or the responsibilities of domination. That is something for people who roleplay intense subjects to discuss out of character. Men will simply use them, and use them hard. Free Women will despise them. Native Gorean kajirae will scorn them as stupid, clumsy and plain. They adapt, or they die. Either of misery, or because they failed to obey well enough.

That is the fictional setting which frames roleplay. And roleplaying intense, even horrific scenarios can be rewarding. I remember the developer of White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade roleplaying game stating- *firmly* that he intended for the act of feeding (non lethally) on a human to be a crime analogous to rape- part of the horror of that existence. The problem with Gor, though, is a lot of overlap and line-blurring around the Gor fiction as a device for D/s play and expression, and a philosophy for practicing that.

Whilst I acknowledge a person's right to live as they choose within the law of their country, I have to say that I find the idea of any kind of slavery deeply abhorent.
Angel you raise a number of points, and I would address a couple. You have stated that two of your 'girls' were school dropouts, one with a serious drink problem, and that another had an eating disorder. Now I applaud that you have encouraged them back into education and away from self-harm, but are we to believe that these girls were in any way fit to make a decision to become a 'slave'? I am very aware that these girls were presenting with symptoms of very low self esteem. Becoming a 'slave' for whatever purposes will not help them. A better course of action would have been to befriend them without the slavery motif, if your intentions are purely philanthropic.

Also you say that another of your girls has disclosed her 'slave status' to her mother? Very worrying indeed that you say that her mother has accepted this and condones it. As a mother myself I would never condone such behaviour (no, I'm not saying that my kids as adults might not enjoy a bit of saucy sex play!! - but I will not need to know about it!)
But slavery? No way, and I'd have the cult deprogrammers in like Flynn to sort it out. Anyone who has children and disagrees, try imagining your child telling you, 'Mummy, I'm his/her slave, and I'm so happy about it. It's really fulfilled me'. My daughter's 14 and I'd move Heaven and Earth never to hear that.

We commemorated 200 years since the abolition of the slave trade recently. Let's keep in mind what slavery really is; not a sex game, not a 'lifestyle choice'; a destruction of the autonomy of the soul.

RL slavery does exist , no question, in many forms. But in the context used here for the most part, are these people truly without choice and the freedom to leave? I guess in some cases there can be mental manipulation , but doesn't the slave ultimately still have the option to leave? Again I'm referring to the instances displayed here.

The wish of an submissive to be someone slave has nothing to do with the "destruction of the autonomy of the soul". The choice (referring to the examples named here) is made in free will and it can be broken in free will. Any connection to slavery of people in history, where you point to, is not relevant.
As a Domme was told me "A collar is given and accepted in free will, but only can be taken off once." There is difference.
To that, a good relation between a Domme/submissive is a great display of trust and protection.

So I dare to disagree with you, and state it is a lifestyle...

And no, I am not a Domme or a submissive. But I have a RL submissive friend who learned me a lot.

Morwen.

That's not slavery, that's sex-play. Calling this sort of behaviour slavery is an insult to those who have died, and those who still live, in enslavement.
Like I said, one's sex life is one thing, but to hand over one's autonomy, especially where one may be suffering a psychological illness, is a very bad thing indeed.

It is a lifestyle.... but I guess you are not open for this view. So there is nothing to discus.

And please, don't go telling what is an insult and what not. Thank you.

Morwen.

The Slavery of 200 years ago was an industry; the capitalist business of using what was considered at the time, a lower life form. The 'slavery' of SL is a relationship, a sharing, a respect.
Comparing them is like apples to Yorskhire Terriers.

The use of the word slave often causes this confusion. To be honest, it does invite criticism as such.

Sorry to butt in, but I just have to add that it is not sex play at all. A lot of people can be forgiven for thinking its all about the "rough sex" but it really isn't about that. It's a lifestyle.

Speaking as a REAL person whose ancestor WAS a slave, this is discussion is interesting but ... it is getting close to an argument.
And many are NOT qualified to make judgements of the real slavery.

Please provide links to reputable news agencies' websites regarding these stories - or they didn't happen.

Reputable News Agencies. That may take a little hunting.