Land Sale Mistake !!!!!

Havent seen that thread until now. But the discussion was centered around another thread where Robin stated "confusing and needs updating". Then when it was mentioned "confusing and needs fixing" to me that was misleading.

Also this thread you point out talks about more than one issue. Not only does it talk about land sales but it mentions how bad the "Release land" button/option is. Was Robin referring to the "release land" button when she said needs fixing? Fixing, as in adding a warning.

No wonder LL doesnt try to say much because people will pick a word out and ramble on about things like lawsuits and such.

I would guess that either most people mark it up as experience in a small plot, like a friend who released her first land thinking it was being released for sale, or they tick the box and have time to move across and enter the correct price and then check the details. Also the percentage of either first time sellers could be low so all in all the figure could be low.

As far as your link to what happend then it would be nice if it was as simple as that, we wouldnt be here now if it was a simple it was sold too cheap, Lindens have already said the software needs "fixed" What it does is put your car on the market before you set the price, all their other dialogue boxes work when you close the main window and other boxes in windows that require data entry and a tickbox on the left require the box to be ticked first to enter data, so most newbie people who dont know better who use software like this will think i gotta tick this box to enter my price and expect it to be put on sale when you close the land window if that makes sense?

Step One: LL reads the chat log of the individuals involved during the mistaken sale time.

Step Two: LL contacts the parties involved.

Step Three: If it was malicious and truly a mistake, and knowing that for the last three years end-users have been calling for an easier and better-defined land-sale window -- they reset the land back to the original owner.

Step Four: LL adds to the TOS (since land is of value that "acquired land through invalid and/or mistaken land sales will be returned to the original owner" so the next time this happens, the end-users have some sort of recourse to fall back upon until the land acquisition window has been reformatted, programmed correctly and has the appropriate bells and whistles.

Step Five: LL posts for additional ideas/changes/improvements in the land sale window.

Step Six: LL implements the changes to the land sale window within three months, with an additional post of the changes in the TOS above and how any "irregular land sales" will be handled until implemented.

Now your liasons know what to do, your prorammers know what to do, your end-users know what to do, and the land scammers will have no recourse if land is taken inappropriately.

Then again, we could all sit and wait another three years for something to be done, watch people get upset over their USD investment in LL, and watch more drama unfold because no one stepped up to the plate.

I won't get into the charachter of the person who chose not to be honorable, from what I have read. Others have done that already.

I will, though, recommend that you give the Lindens time. They have to sort through a lot of information in order to make sure ANY assistance they provide you is correct, just and fair.

Now, I suggest others do what I did and vote for Prop 348. It is a very logical feature to have and it might save us all some heartache in the future.

I like everything you suggested.

How I read it, he never closed the land edit box.. therefore he was still checking all the facts to make sure he had the right land. It was bought while still in the edit box... and right there is where I begin to fault the software.

I quite strongly object to being asked to my past history and even though you have have absolutely no right to know, i have nothing to hide, there is absolutely no past history between me ans sasi other than being friends here and in our previous chat program, if you check her profile you'll see she has bought her husband from the previous chat here too and is her sl partner, i also have no dealings and contact with any of the parties involved in the purchases of the land whatsoever. You want to know my interest, its for LL to get up off their chairs and DO SOMETHING, for philip to read his email from sasi, for someone from head office to call her, ANYTHING.

Im not sure if your keeping upto date on the land, she got that depressed we knocked something up funny for an hour or so yesterday, quite a few people added something here and there, thanks to all the people who came by in support for the street protest. Just some trailers party lights and a few other things at another spot at the moment, no animals sorry

I really dont appreciate the questions about my personal involvements when im just trying to help a friend get her assets recovered from a company who have addmitted that it was sold through an interface that needs "fixing" as its "confusing"

I will also donate to this fund should it become necessary.

If you are referring to my case, the difference is that the other party was willing to make things right. Lindens merely refunded the other persons money, and the land reverted back to me.

I will donate as well.

We gotta stick together.

Of course, some might spin this into a "why we need player-government" thread.

Not me.

And with the L$ falling every day as I've shown here /130/00/47361/1.html it will be easy to come up with the money to donate

The worst thing i have no idea what is going to happen, before this i had confidence in them, I before you think im taking sides listen, im a preview tester i goto the preview grid and bug test all the builds before the get sent out to all you folks, yes i know we dont get them all, im also in the group to test 1.7, look in groups and search for preview. I've chatted to many lindens they are very friendly, i've not got involved directly with this case by asking personal favours because i was sure they treat everybody exactly the same, not only do i test, my application is in for international liason, as well as mentor. So you can probably understand why i feel so bad when you can see that something i thought was good and works seems to be failing someone honest.

Ellie is probably right i should probably leave it here, just wanted people to know i dont hate LL i loved it i volunteer for them hell i wanted to work for them and help others.

Sorry if i've upset anybody, hope you understand why if i did.

I am sometimes bad with names. The situation I was refering to was the poster that accidently sold his land for $L10. The lindens stepped in and got the land back.

removing this.... Im not getting in the middle of something that I dont have all the details of.

yes it would toy and while editing options in a box that IS what your doing until you tell the box to do other wise. Unless you are running some weird OS I have not seen... and I doubt that as this is my field now.

If they did it for others, they should do it for Sasi.

And continue doing it for people until they get the thing fixed.

coco

Well i've asked philip who posts in hotline or another senior member of staff ot comment on whats going on here and why sasi doesnt seem to be helped like others have

/invalid_link.html

It's simple -- really, it is.

For three years we have asked for changes in the land-sales window.

For three years we have made suggestions on what should be changed.

For three years these types of "mistake sales" and "grabbed land" has occurred.

It's time to fix the source of the problem with a confirmation statement, a redesign of the land-sales window, and other suggestions for improvements that have been made.

Until then, Mommy and Daddy Linden have to do this manually.

For all the articles about how "wonderful the virtual land sale market" is in SL, not one article has mentioned how easily newbies have been scammed and mistakenly sold their land.

It's time to fix the problem so that these types of occurrences no longer occur. Until then, every few months, another scenario such as this will raise it's ugly head. Maybe it's time that some of the bad publicity that goes along with the good publicity happens within these articles for someone to step up and fix this problem.

Although a redesign, with irritating "are you really, really sure" windows, would doubtless reduce the incidence somewhat, I bet you there will still be a significant number of mistakes and complaints. Its not always newbies. Sometimes sheer familiarity, and the habit of clicking annoyances out of the way automatically, will bring the same result.

A warning kicking in below (say) $2/m might be the most effective, but this threshold would need periodic review and updating. Or individual setting - one more confusing and complicating factor which could lead to new misunderstandings and errors.

In the end there is no substitute for an individual exercising his individual responsibility to use appropriate care and caution to keep his own assets safe. I take care of my wallet and credit cards in RL, don't you ? I adjust the level of care depending on the value of what I'm protecting.

All very well and good, but if you were to accidentally drop your wallet, and someone ran up and grabbed it before you could do so, that is still theft on their part, just as much as clumsiness on your part.

Dropping something is entirely different from accidentally advertising it for sale at too low a price.

If someone in RL put the wrong object into an automatic vending machine, they could not run after the purchaser and demand it back.

In this particular case there was the intention to sell land. There was offer. There was acceptance. We still dont know, for instance, how much time elapsed exactly between the land being subdivided, and the click to purchase. The purchaser has no way of knowing what the seller is doing in her client window. It goes yellow, its for sale. People do sometimes set silly prices, they may need cash or tier instantly, or be raving mad with LL and be leaving in anger. I once needed tier very urgently, and released 192m to public. To my amazement someone was standing beside me almost instantly, and took it almost the moment I clicked. I wished him luck. If it had been a mistake I would'nt have dreamed of asking for it back.

We are high on complaint, and low on detail. We know the purchase was" legal". Before we could decide on its morality we would need to know much, much more.

I have been amazed to see so many people here willing to act as judge, jury, and executioner on the word of one party only. Particularly since no-one has made any real effort to prevent us all easily finding the name of the accused. I don't even know whether anyone has IM'd the person to see if they know they are being so maligned in this thread. Who knows, perhaps the incident might sound quite different seen from the other side? LL's reluctance to act suggests it is possible there may indeed be other aspects.

The truth is NO interface is foolproof. Errors may reduce a little, but will continue to occur.

Um... Lets say I move into a new whiz-bang, high tech comunity and am given an electric sign to use cause I want to sell my car...

I've never used this type of sign before, but the rules of the new community say that it's the only way I can sell my car.

I put the sign on my car and start typing in the price. Before I have time to finish what I'm doing, someone throws money at my feet and races off with the car before I can finish editing the price on this whiz-bang sign.

The WHOLE incident is caught on film... (every trasaction in SL is logged as far as I understand it).

Just curious... Who is at fault here?

Was I just robbed? Or should the transaction be considered """"LEGAL"""" just because the """"buyer"""" did happen pay the amount listed on the sign at the split second of the transaction in question (WHILE I WAS STILL EDITING IT!!!!)?

Hypothetical case mearly to demonstrate what I believe (after reading every single post in this thread) went on here... But stil, I think, food for thought.

Racer P.

Standing aside from the hypothetical "Well let's say THIS happened..." - because its just arguing around the point of who was right and who was wrong, and that's an arguement no one will ever win -

Its been well established that the current interface is confusing and easy to make a mistake with, even for very established and experienced land sellers.

The Lindens have agreed, and they've stated there will be changes made.

Will there still be mistakes? Sure.

Will there be nearly as many instances of scenarios like the one that started the thread? No, probably not by half, at least. I believe errors will reduce a LOT. People will know exactly what settings they've applied. They can correct a mistake BEFORE someone else takes advantage of it - which can happen in a matter of seconds.

And even if they do continue through the confirmation message without reading it, and then get taken advantage of - well, seriously, at that point they lose my sympathy as well. The way things stand, its very very easy to make a mistake due to user error OR software/lag error, as Anshe pointed out. But if you click merrily through a confirmation message without reading it, well, that IS your own damn fault.

Is saving that amount of money, time and hassle worth the implementation of an optional warning message or confirmation message - something you can turn off if you don't like it? I think so.

But what say the setting of the sign is done from inside the house? And lets say the sidewalk, and the car, are out of sight of the house ? How can the purchaser know about all the silly mistakes being perpetrated out of sight ? And lets say the purchaser has already committed to a financing deal before the irate seller turns up?

This was a big plot. Maybe you are standing at the far end, and it suddenly goes yellow. You don't see the owner faffing about, she's over the other end. You click, its an amazing price, you buy it. You are now instantly committed to a big tier up, to at least one payment of US$125 which you can never retrieve. Then the owner turns up, complaining that you are in effect stealing from her.

As I understand it the buyer offered to sell Sasi 2/3 of the land back at $1/m. Anybody notice that? So he would have recovered L$20,000 from Sasi, and say L$70,000 from selling on the other 10,000m. Total recovered L$90,000. Less roughly $10,000 purchase price means a gain of $80,000 or US$320. But the tier-up "in error" was US$125. So his profit from Sasi's error if she had accepted his offer would have been 320-125 = US190.

Very, very different from the US$2000 "theft" some are so readily laying at his door.

Even if he had been the most fair, honest and generous person imaginable, and been willing to sell it back for what he paid, she would have owed him the irrecoverable US125 tier fee (or most of it, depending where his tier started at ). Thats about L$31000. Or about 4500 m at $7/m.

If she didn't have US$125 immediately available, she could have suggested he keep some land instead of taking cash, and sell it quickly to recover his US$125. For a quick sale he could not bank on better than $4/m, if that, (I'm aware of land prices, are you?), so he would have needed to keep 7750m. And go to a lot of trouble to get back to where he started before someone else messed him about.

I see no evidence in the thread of her making any offer to compensate him in this way, or to cough up the minimum US$125 on the spot.

Now lets further imagine that these people were not friends, but had a history of annoying each other. Lets imagine all he had from her were shrill accusations and demands for immediate return? No recognition of what her error had already cost him. Maybe he doesn't like big erect penises and copulating animal statues, and felt prior antagonism? Can you be surprised at the outcome ? But why didn't she accept his offer to cut his profit back to US$190 ? Perhaps she was so upset she lost rational thought?

It's not even impossible that Sasi was chatting to her friend while working, and that several minutes may have elapsed between the land going yellow and him making the purchase, so that he felt her accusation of an instant "snatch" to be unjust. Or maybe he didn't see it go yellow, but arrived, by coincidence, to find it so, and had no idea how long it had been set ? Maybe he knew how quickly a baron will arrive in these circimstances, if you hesitate (see another thread on new land-scanners).

All of this, except the calculations, is pure speculation. I'm just trying to show those of you who so love to hang a man without hearing his side of the story that there are all sorts of possible scenarios which might be very relevant to assessing the morality of his behaviour.

I find this eagerness to convict without proper evidence hysterical and bizarre. Thank goodness LL decline to go in for it.

You have 48 hours before you are required to tier up.. its a grace period. I would never be in such a fantasy mind to think anyone would put up ~30k of land for only $L9k.... I can not speak for others, but that was clearly a mistake.

But you also prove the point that the land tool itself was at fault also... it does not matter where he was "making the sign" it is the fact that the sign should not of been posted until he was doing "making" it.