Land Sale Mistake !!!!!

In the US they are. Anyone is open to lawsuit in the US... there is no such thing as an ironclad TOS. Why do you think SOE has never gone after IGE for selling what is clearly against their TOS?

You seem pretty sure of yourself. In the US you can sue anyone, while you do have to prove your case in a superior court you do not have to have burden of proof for small claims at all.

The lidens by admiting their tools are faulty and thus incurring real world financial lost could very well and easily be open to a lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, ask one and see.

Care to back that up?

This is the clause about system disputes, they have not offered a resolution to a dispute, or any kind of mediation, even after admitting that the service is confusing.


(d) you hereby release Linden (and Linden's shareholders, partners, affiliates, directors, officers, subsidiaries, employees, agents, suppliers, licensees, distributors) from claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential) of every kind and nature, known and unknown, suspected and unsuspected, disclosed and undisclosed, arising out of or in any way connected with Linden's resolution of disputes relating to the Service.

I sometimes think some people posting in forum are a bit bonkers. Or lose all sense of proportion in trying to support their friends. "SYSTEM ERROR" ?

Why not quote what the Lindens said, instead of some here referring to it in exaggerated terms.
"Thanks for the suggestions! You're right -- the process is confusing and needs updating. It's already in the queue"

Very far from admission of a "software fault" or "system error". Any complex interface like SL is full of little details, many of which can be improved to make it more difficult for the careless or inexperienced to make errors. I agree with LL that this is an area which probably deserves a little tuning when it can be fitted in, but "system error"? How come it never happened to me? Or most of the other people here? I say again - it seemed obvious to me without ever being told - DONT LEAVE LAND FOR SALE WHILE YOU SUBDIVIDE OR JOIN IT. Set it for sale only after double-checking. If it (or what you divided it from) is worth a (to you) significant sum then triple check before re-clicking. Isn't it obvious?

I go one further. I set all my land which is not for sale so that it can only be sold to me personally, and for a large sum. That way I'm doubly protected if I do stupidly click the sell button in the wrong circumstances. We don't need to keep pestering LL to protect us from ourselves when alternate protections are in our hands. and all we need is to take care of our assets sensibly ourselves. Its called individual responsibility.

And can we please stop this naive rubbish about US$2000 land value. I was wrong, there is a stretch of water along one side, but it doesn't influence my valuation much, because it isn't much of the land. The centre of the plot is 813m from a TH. I know lots of otherwise comparable land which is pure waterfront (eg narrow peninsula) which has been unsold for weeks at $8.3/m, and most of this plot is not waterfront, but inland. It is currently set for sale at 9.6/m waterfont and 6.4/m for its interior. It is not being snapped up. I think by the time it is all sold it will have averaged about $7/m, if lucky. So the original 30000m was worth about L$210,000 , or US$840. Absolutely no way over US$1000. What she paid is irrelevant to a current valuation of what she lost.

Even Sasi herself tells us:
" I sectioned off a 1120 sqm and was going to set price at 8,960."
Thats $8/m. Less than half the $17/m she would need to justify her US$2000 claim. Even 8 is too high a figure anyway in the current market. Why do people exaggerate so? Why do others politely refrain from noticing? Isn't it important to get your facts right if you wish to make criticisms and evoke support? What else might be exaggerated ? We can't know.

Sasi made an unfortunate mistake which the huge majority of us are careful to avoid, and deserves sympathy. But I reject all these exaggerated accusations against LL, all these unsubstantiated claims of precedent and preference, and these threats of legal action, which could wipe out the total investment of everyone of us who carefully did not make such mistakes. She wouldn't even need to win to cause some damage to SL.

With regard to precedent, how can we judge without knowing the precise details of all the circumstances, both of those previous incidents, and of this. History of previous interactions between the partys, to name just one relevant factor of many.

Have we heard the other side of the story, even on this one? No. Why are people always so ready to judge others? Simply on the say so of the first people to bend their ear ?

I can theoretically sue someone because it is friday and friday is my sueing day, but that doesn't mean it will even get before a judge. Read the TOS sometime, the L$ currency is not in fact yours, the fact that LL lets you sell it does not mean you have a legal right to it. LL have the right to ban your account, along with all of your money, and it is completely within their rights to do. The system is faulty? Oh well, you agreed to their conditions when signing up for the game. You cannot sue LL for anything that happens in game, and you are silly for thinking you can.

Sadly, the way I see it there is no dispute to mediate. The software did what it was told to do. I hate that this happened to anybody but fail to see the logic for the outcry against LL.

This is an unfortunate occurance for sure, there is no debating that.

Its easy to become a lynch mob, but remember, you dont know the whole story. You can assume all sorts of things based on what you know, but just remember, you dont know the whole story. Geez, did I say "you dont know the whole story" twice? No, I said it three times now.

I am trying to stay as nuetral as possible but I do think there is a lot wrong with this story. All I am saying is dont jump to conclusions based on what you think you know.

I'd like to think you are right, Locke, but I think you are confusing "suing" and "winning". Particularly in the lower courts, I think the bringing of a case, and the initiation of a hearing, would be perfectly possible. It might be unusual enough, or tricky enough, to be referred upward. It could attract substantial media attention.

For all we know, Sasi might be an extremely wealthy individual in RL, who could face with equanimity huge court costs which could wipe out SL in some flaunted test case for the industry. This sort of unprincipled belligerence should not be encouraged.

For these reasons, although I believe in the workings of a largely free market, I believe that at this stage LL should put caps on how much SL wealth an individual can accumulate. A person who has too much to lose or gain, so that the cost of litigation would be worthwhile, is a danger to the rest of us.

At least one super-land-baron is in this category, and has already demonstrated significant aggression and defiance towards the Lindens over how land leases are to be described. I predict trouble to come. Only a matter of time.

The software which is now even said to be confusing and needs fixing by linden labs themselves, god help a newbie doing her first land sale then. Obviously with some practice you might get used to it, but its not as if those buttons give off any hover text help.

As far as the price of the land goes again, it was bought in pieces and, well when you buy a place, you pay what you think its worth for a place you like, somethings are worth paying for if you like being there. You really do sink to new lows if you have a go at someone for that, of course they know that market forces will decide the price of the land when they sell. Not everybody is here to make money buying and selling land, some people just like somewhere nice to have a place to hang out and have friends, and im sorry if you feel the need to critisise that.

By allowing me to sell $L for $$ which I do then own is putting real world value on $L. Like I said he/she can take them to small claims court which does not need to be approved or accepted and can easily be done with a small filling fee and some paperwork.

While you can theoretically sue me for being on a friday... a higher court would throw that out. Small claims court would indeed take that but it would be thrown out once the judge read it.

TOS's are not ironclad, specialy when you are trailblazing a new frontier which brings real world currency and finacial responsiblity into the virtual world.

Agreed, Loki.

I was criticizing no one Nathan. Read my post again. I am sad to see this happen to anyone and it has happened time and again in my tenure in this world. To reiterate, the portion of the TOS you quoted does release LL from fault in this specific matter. The software did what it was designed to do. Confusing ? Maybe a bit for a new person I'll admit. Flawed ? No. Please be more thorough in reading a person's reply before accusing one of criticism.

I largely agree with you on this because LL has gone where no other game company has ventured and that is allowing and encouraging real world financial investment into the SL community which in itself is a whole new area where there is no preccendent set by any courts in any country.

I also agree that going after LL legaly is not to be taken. I am hopping LL does the right thing because it is the right thing to do and not because they are pressured to do so.

Robin said needs "updating", not fixing. Big difference.

Edited by Me because after reading it it gave no constructive advice.

I cant personally answer for sasi, but i am her friend on here, she is taking some time on here because of all the stress, I can tell you almost exactly what her land/tier situation was, she had approx 37,000m2 of land in conistan and therefore paying the 195$ a month tier, she was just about to start selling her land and parcelled off a peice etc etc, because of the need to tier down and get the money from selling her land as well as saving money each month, but now she has lost all that money. and linden labs wont even talk to her without the fear of her being accused of harrasment of liasons. So i appologize if im sticking up for a friend. But like many other people on here who dont know her and think this is just plain wrong i would do it for anyone in the same situation.

meh *backs out of thread*

The thing is.... if this was so badly flawed why doesnt ythings like this happen daily? They happen maybe once every 6 months or so. I tend to think the 'flaw' lies elsewhere. As I had siad before, there's faqs for this, there's always a Liason on, there's Live Help. And as Loki said, there's much more to this than most have heard. Until one can hear both sides of a story all thi is pure speculation, nothing more.

I am sorry this happened but I try to take responsibility for my actions and not blame others.
It seems to me this i like trying to sue GM because you sold your Chevy to cheap.

I apologize for that lecktor, from my understanding of part 4.2(d) it states that lindens are released from possible lawsuits on the conclusion of disputes connected with Linden's resolution of disputes relating to the Service?

There is an earlier section about lawsuits but that is for player vs player which this does not involve, as this is about a service that needs to be "fixed" and notice the post links to this post.

/invalid_link.html

Even Anshe, who arguably deals with land sales far more than any of us, says that she would like some sort of warning system put into effect that would alert you when you've made a mistake.

/130/38/47263/1.html



So...mistakes happen, even to the most experienced user.

I don't want to take specific sides on this exact issue - as has been said, we only have one side of the story - but I know it has happened before and will continue to happen as long as us error-prone humans use lag-prone software And I'm CERTAINLY not getting involved in the sue/don't sue discussion. But some well thought out changes to the UI - made optional to those that don't wish to be bothered - can greatly reduce these occurances from happening.

If the Lindens are unwilling to do right by her, I still offer to donate either $L or $$. I am sure it will not be even a dent in what she lost, but maybe it will at least give her hope that there are those that can clearly see a wrong was done.

Well I don't want to argue this much further as it is obviously painful to the people involved. However, as I understood it, the wrong parcel was sold at the lesser price no? So how is it the software's fault i.e. LL? That was my point. Again I hate that this happened but I also hate worse the lighting of the litigation torch to a world I so love that would surely destroy it. I still don't see the Linden's responsibility to mediate here. Sorry.

Actually they do happen daily, it happened to me. Fortunately I was with Finn Jensen and he caught it and let me know about it. I have been working with computers since 84' and I would never have thought that the land tool would update your options till you either closed the box or hit an "apply" button.

So yes, it does happen, it is not the correct way for it to act. Lindens seem to agree on that.

Your GM arguement is mute... if I was "thinking" of selling my car and "thinking" of a price and someone came around and read my "thoughts" they could not buy it. When using the land tool, I see that as "thinking" of what I want to do and who I want to sell it to.. I have not commited to it till the box is closed or I hit "apply". This is extremely well documented as the starndard and accepted way an input box works in modern software. Both Windows and Mac uses this, even Linux GUI's use this method.

Btw, I edited out that post but you must of seen it before I could. I knew it would only antagonize the situation further.. sorry I was unable to get to it before you saw it.

Nathan

Most of the rest of us are trying to post here, and look at these questions, impartially, unbiassed by friendship with and personal loyalty towards any of the parties.

Perhaps people should know that you are neighbor of Sasi's, and presumably of the alleged perpetrator (with whom for all we know you may both have a history). That you are obviously personally involved. That you have supplied the numerous erect penises, and the copulating animals, with which Sasi appears to be trying to annoy someone (LL? perp? No-one - this is how her plots always are?).

So why not declare an interest and leave the discussion to those who are more able to look at things impartially ? You seem to have put Sasi's case very strongly and repeatedly here, but we aren't learning about anything more from you now, except your loyalty to a friend, admirable though it is.

I don't appreciate your attempts to whip up antagonism against LL, and your repeated suggestions of litigation. Everyone here knows the score, and agreed to the TOS. Everyone intelligent knows they can lose all their SL assets any time, on a Linden whim. LL simply cannot carry out full, fair, and impartial investigation of every factor in the huge number of disputes that must occur every day. The rest of us don't want to bear the cost of the extra staff that would consume. So we all have to accept that sometimes things go wrong for us.

If LL did reverse such sales in the past, I think that was probably a mistake, and they have realised they should not have done it. We cannot pay for a court system with paid RL staff. We have to accept the software tools as they are, and if we slip up with them, make sensible suggestions for improvement (as you have done) and leave it there.

Don't stake more than you are willing to lose. Take responsibility for protecting your assets yourself, by using an appropriate level of caution and care. Don't threaten SL (and through them the rest of us). If you don't like the terms, leave.