Do you consider AV Sex Cheating on your real life Spouse if the flame has gone?

I am in SL as a game, and have NO first life profile, with first life details, other than to say I am NOT looking for a proper relationship in SL, and my country for Time Difference info. However, this is just me. I have met others who ARE in SL For Real. It is now MY responsibilty to make clear that I am playing here. If I have AV sex with them, and they take it for real (not just an expression of Lust between AVs, but personally), then I need to watch that THEY are not cheating, or I will be cheating just as much as they are, regardless of my attitude or that of my partner.

I do have friends here, meaning I have a real affectionate relationship to them as people. AV sex is then out ... Totally. As is any other Cybering, except as a joke... It doesn't work any more for me anyway - again, due to my stable Real Life relationship.

I answered No to the question. But it is not a Yes/No question at all, as others have pointed out...

Whom are you having fun with? The AV? The imagination of the Player? Or the Player themselves via the AV?

I run three AVs here, roughly on equal time, so they are all equally Alts, I guess. Two are female. I also have a Real Life Gender. But that is separate for me. And each of these AVs has a distinct personal life here, with own friends, activities and taste. In one case, the friend of one AV has in fact become a friend of another AV, via an introduction... But it doesn't really work, the AV personalities and interests are really too different.

My Real Life partner thinks Cybering in SL is silly; it is not, always... But they don't think the ACTION is wrong, it is the involvement that makes it tricky. And I agree.

Running these AVs as I do, the morals I have to apply to my activities in SL are very tight, much tighter than if I was just one AV, with my natural gender. But they consist primarily of setting a VERY sharp line between a pure SL relationship, and a real friendship/relationship on the feeling level. The very moment the relationship in SL gets real, all bets are off... And my very puritanical RL Morals kick in. After this it is very much a matter of conscience, and I treat it with the respect it deserves. NOW there are real people, with very real feelings and dreams involved.

As long as it is a purely Role Playing Relationship, hell.. Fun is Fun! And cheating is then only possible within the Role Play Context.


Have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes/no, check applicable... hehehe

Very interesting topic.

My personal feelings are like many other posters, it doesn't have to be a physical relationship to make it an affair, its the emotional connection and once that emotional and mental connection is made it is poison to any RL relationship(s) you have. Fantasy is almost always better than reality.

I think IF you are going to behave in an adulterous fashion online that honesty is absolutely the best policy and it should be mentioned / discussed with your spouse. I tend to flirt quite frequently and my wife understands and accepts that about me, but if I were to cross the line and start cybering I would likely have my eyes scratched out and she has some gorgeous natural long nails to do it with, in short order I might add.

In my opinion, the question is poorly posed, since it really depends on the point of view the participants are playing from at the time.

As a hard-core roleplayer, my characters themselves may have involvements with other characters, all the way to sexual intimacy. There are those who make disparaging remarks about this sort of thing, ranging from inadequacy complex to sexual deviancy.. neither of which I would admit to having (heh heh); I'm pretty comfortable in my relationship, actually. In my mind there is ALWAYS a strict separation between the In Character emotional state and the Out Of Character state. While I OOCly draw upon both the emotional content and (in some ways) thrill of voyeurism, the emotional responses are strictly separated. Thus from that perspective, I -personally- don't consider AV/AV intimacy as "cheating", as long as:

1. Both parties are playing ICly and,
2. the IC/OOC separation is maintained.

It's really not that easy to do, either... I've found a lot of so-called "roleplayers" that break these rules, and the results can be disasterous. It's only through a lot of IC play and OOC interaction that roleplayers trustworthy enough for close relationships can be found... I'm not talking about exchanging RL identities, but OOCly establishing the ground rules and sticking to them. For me, at least, the people able to do this are few in number.

There does seem to be a lot of people in SL that use avatars as simple skins for themselves, rather than compositing a character through-and-through. It's very tempting and easy to lose oneself in such a character, rather than simply putting on the skin.. particularly as SL seems so lacking in accepted theme separate from RL. Those involved in "other lifestyle roleplay", for example, IMO place themselves in a delicate position, since they expose so much of themselves to their colleagues. I personally am having to think really hard about roleplaying with them, since we expose different levels of emotional context. For them, and the others that are just wearing skins over themselves, I think it's quite arguable that intimate relations formed in SL could be considered "cheating", since it's "you", not your "character", participating.

IMO the "when the fire is gone" part is irrelevant and nothing more than an excuse.

--v

I have personal experience in this area. Both as the "victim" and the "cheater".

I consider it cheating from my point of view because it involved mentally and emotionally betraying the vows I made. And really that is what its all about the mental and emotional committment one makes to ones significant other.

When I first joined SL I had no interest in cybersex, I had no clue about avatar sex and quite frankly I was naieve and innocent enough to not care. My husband on the other hand saw the potential right away and whored himself out as a male av and a female av...and yes I know there are a lot of you male avs out there that had no clue you were with a guy as you professed your love and pursued him hotly.

He always said it was just a game, but I know I felt anger, embarrassment, shame and betrayal especially as his SL time and relationships started replacing the real life tenuous relationship he and I had.

Then I met my SL partner - it started out sweet, and romantic and it fulfilled everything emotionally and mentally that I was losing or had lost in real life. The physical was all that was left untouched. I was "cheating" on my husband who was "cheating" on me.

The one thing this did for us is made us both realize that the "cheating" was a symptom of a greater problem. He and I divorced in January. He and I both realized that we no longer believed the "for better or for worse, until death do us part".

Interesting... my wife-to-be and I have recently discussed this (as my last post suggested) and even though she has never played the game it was a big issue. Therefore I do not play SL anymore.

I've read some interesting studies and papers on this topic.

Baker, Andrea. “What Makes an Online Relationship Successful? Clues from Couples who Met in Cyberspace” CyberPsychology & Behavior. 5:4 Aug2002.

Schneider, Jennife. "The impact of compulsive cybersex behaviours on the family."Sexual & Relationship Therapy; 18:3 Aug2003

Whitty, Monica. “Cybercheating.”Counselling & Psychotherapy Journal 15:8 Oct2004

Whitty, Monica. “Pushing the Wrong Buttons: Men's and Women's Attitudes toward Online and Offline Infidelity.” CyberPsychology & Behavior. 6:6 Dec2003


The conclusion was that Cyber sex is *almost* as bad as the real thing. Here they are ranked in order of how hurtful they are. (ranked from 1 -> 5, 5 being the most hurtfule, as interviewed, 1,117 people, of varying age, gender, education and locals.) In the case of compulsive cybersex, it was found to be worse, as it exposed the family.

4.74 Sexual intercourse
4.10 Cybersex regularly with the same person
3.94 Hot chat regularly with the same person
3.89 Cybersex regularly with strangers
3.69 Cybersex with a stranger—just the once
3.61 Hot chat regularly with strangers
3.22 Hot chat with a stranger—just the once
2.34 Sharing deep emotional and/or intimate information offline
2.34 Sharing deep emotional and/or intimate information online
2.23 Strip clubs
1.98 Pornographic pictures on web sites
1.97 Pornographic pictures sent via email
1.96 Pornographic videos and magazines
1.77 Non-sexual relationship online
1.75 Non-sexual relationship offline

taken from "Pushing the Wrong Buttons"

In case anyone was curious in reading some background material related to this topic in NWN, the story is here.

At least (AFAIK) SL doesn't have to worry about Mr. Bungle and his voodoo doll, though a simple permissions bug could easily enable such a thing.

IMO the key to all of this is the bedrock of freeform roleplay: consensuality.

In this case, the consent extends to the partners outside the virtual relationship. Does the partner know what one is doing? Where the boundaries are drawn? Does everyone agree on the rules and boundaries? It's a toughy to resolve, too, and heartrending stories like Nisa's abound. Bartle has some good references on the broad area of the subject in his book Designing Virtual Worlds.

As a hard-core roleplayer I build-in layers of separation between myself and the character. I try to make sure everyone on the other end understands that too. My partner knows exactly what is going on, and when the monitor is turned off, that's where it ends.

--v

"ehm, are we trying to find one single answer to this issue or do we agree to each find our own?
I mean, if the majority says SL relationships are not cheating, and you innitialy think that it is and then, since majority says it isn't, you go like "oh, well, it's ok then, I'll go cheat right away" (exagerated example ofcourse) then I'd get a little freaked out by the level of independant thought here.
Saying it in simpler ways, why not stick to your own feelings of what you can and cannot, or should and should not do?
Why ask for what others feel you should considder cheating?
I'd say the issue of what is cheating is too dependant on the individual to try and find one single answer to it, make your own and be proud of what you came up with, or change it untill you are."

I forgot who said it (cause I've been reading this thread till my eyes started to bleed) but my thoughts... *Ding, we have a winner*

Maybe winner's not quite the right word, but that's what came out so oh well, haha. And now I'll just shup before I start rambling o.o

Woah, back up a sec, Mr. Bungle? What do they have to do with this? Probably this song:


Mr Bungle - The Girls of Porn (Second Life Version)
slight lyrical parody by Jonny Marlin

(spoken Okay, all you pose-ballin' motherfuckers out there, it's time to win a chance to butt-bang your daughter's tight virgin cyber ass to IP number...
6! 6! 6!

The urge is too much to take
All I can think about is playing with myself
It's time to masturbate
I've got my Second Life and don't need nothin' else
Linden... Linden...

My hand gets tired and my dick gets sore
But the linden girls want more
So I go throught the pose-balls one more time
And I just let the jism fly
Yeah yeah yeah

Doesn't matter where you go
Cause pretty soon you're talking to a naked whore
XXX video
Installin' quicktime I can whack it on the go

Nobody's home, I'm alone
(sex clubs, mature zones)
Nobody's home, I'm alone
(until my wife gets home)

BREAK IT DOWN:
We got gushin' gonads, tingling tushes
Hairy balls and hairy bushes
S & M, whips and chains
Pregnant ladies with menstrual pains
We got hand jobs and nipple tweaks
Finger bangs and slappin' cheeks
We got rape, necro & both ways
And lots of hung studs for all you gays
We got incest & bestiality too
We got Sade & the sweetest taboo
We got girls who'll eat your pee and poo
And guys who'd love to fuck your shoe
There's she-males, lezbos, & shaved beav
And D-cup mamas with so much cleave
Pervert citizens who love to watch
And sniff those skid marks from your crotch - yeah!

Ain't got no woman next to me
I just got this avie-thing
Whats on the computer screen
Well it's okay with me

My hand gets tired and my dick gets sore
But the linden girls want more
So I go throught the pose-balls one more time
And I just let the jism fly--

(oh, mr bungle!)

Yeah yeah yeah!

I'm a script to fuck you baby...

My comments are not necessarily directed at Isis here.

I find it unfortunatly amusing to read the misconceptions of single people regarding what they think marriage could or should be. There are enormous misconeptions among single people thinking that marriage is this wonderful blissful state of being, within which each partner is completely and totally fullfilled by the other. The number of unions that come anywhere close to that are very,very few. In fact I don't know any married people who have a relationship anywhere close to that. If you ever do find your self in a relationship like that, fall down and kiss your partners feet and tell them how incredibly lucky you are to have found each other.

There are single people in SL who think of it as a dating club, where they are looking or a life partner in RL. Those of us who are married (and value that marriage) owe them the kindness of telling them early on and that we are not looking for a RL relationship if that is the case.

Perhaps one of the reasons there is so much divorce in RL, is that to many people expect bliss, and that is just not what they get in reality. All of the most successful marriages I have seen take lots of hard work, compromise and sacrafice. They are not ideal or blissful, at least not most of the time. In the long run, it is the commitment of the other person to make the relationship work that is important, and valued. It is the tried and true reliability of the other person that is really of value, always being there to support the spouse thru troubled times, thru sickness and health, thru child rearing and deaths, thru good times and unemployement. It is about so much more then sex. People can have a wonderful valued marriage with each other in all these respects, but still not be sexually or emotionally fullfilled by each other. One can have a sexualy and emotionally satsifiying relationship with thier marriange partner, and stillcrave something more or something else.

SL offers those of us who find our valued RL relationships to be incomplete an oppourtunity to have other extended relationships without giving up what is valuable in our RL relationships. SL also offers us the oppourtunity to experiment with alternative lifestyles safely, without risking everything we value in RL for a one night fling with a furry, a dragon, and elf or a fairy; or a person of the same sex.

We can be very happy with our married life in RL and still be incomplete in someway. If SL offers us the oppourtunity to complete that aspect of ourselves, while keeping what we value in our RL marriage, why shouldn't we go for it. Why shouldn't we want to "be all that we can be"?

OK how about an extreme example to make the point...

SL has helped me become more tolerent of diverse lifestyles. If I can accept the idea of sex between consenting dragons, or vampires and furries.... gay and lesbian love pale in comparison. I have learned so much about my self and relationships in SL, and have gotten over the discomfort I felt regarding gay love. I love women and everything about them, and I love making love to them. So I can easily understand lesbian love, but always have had a problem accepting gay love.

A friend in SL helped me realize just a day or so ago that if I were reincarnated as a women, I would be a lesbian, because the idea of making love to a guy just doesn't appeal to me, and I think I will always love women. She explained that she feels the same way about men, and if she were to be reincarnated as a man, she would be a gay, because the idea of making love to a women just doesn't appeal to her. Suddenly it is easy for me to understand and accept gay love.

Yes I believe in reincarnation. And that we have souls or spirits that are independent from our bodies. And that transend single lifetimes. It makes perfect sense to me that as our spirits evolve, we would spend a period of lives in both male and female bodies. It makes sense to me that one could be born into the body of a male, having a preference for making love to males, and vis-versa.

If you were born into a female body in our RL society chances are that I would still end up married to a man. I might have a very satisifying married relationship and family, with that man, but I would still crave female companionship. If I can fullfill that craving in SL why shouldn't I. And why should I tell my spouse about it if I have no intention of leaving him or hurting them.

Ok now for a less extreme example. I am married to a good man, we have a good relationship, are devoted to each other and have children that we love. But my husband has never completely satsified me sexually, and is emotionally cool. I don't want to give up all of the good things we share together, or break up our family. But I meet a man in SL who excite me sexually and emotionally, he fulfills that missing piece in my life. He is also married in a similar situation, but doesn't want to leave his wife either. Why shouldn't we have that relatioship. Why shouldn't we fulfill each other.

Why should we have to hurt our spouses and throw away our RL relatioships in order to experience the additional fulfillment we can share in SL? If we are happy with our relationship in SL its or business and ours alone. We are sharing a fantasy that neither of us intend to bring into RL. A fantasy shared with a real person and with real feelings, a fantasy that is fulfilling both sexually and emotionally. A fantasy that allows us to remain more satisfied with our RL marriage. Why should we deny ourselves that?

Why do some of you insist on labling something that is this good for us as cheating? I think perhaps it is because you lack understanding and compassion. and because you are deluded by your ideas of how perfect a marriage should be.

Well Arch Tx. An interesting and thoughtful post. Clearly you understand your situation, and are comfortable with it. If you are open with your spouse, he may even accept the compromise. Similarly, if your paramour's spouse approves, then you have only done some harmless indulgence of some online fantasies.

By maybe one spouses does not know? Maybe one spouse is told its all a game about shopping and commerce and building? Maybe one spouse wants to cuddle on the couch while the other is buried with their face in the game? Maybe the pain is unspoken and the passion cools because one part of the relatiosnhip is busy dumping their innermost feelings and thoughts on a total stranger?

Maybe the person you marry is the person who should be entitled to your intimate self? the person with whom you share your hopes and dreams with and don't just stay together for the kids.

But really whether or not an online affair is cheating is only something the parties involved would know the answer to. Every relationship is unique and the glue that holds yours togther may be the acid that burns another's apart.

If my spouse was having the kind of conversations I have had with married men online with another woman, I would be hurt. I would feel betrayed that the trust and intimacy I long for was being given to someone else. Like I was second place in his life.

I have been involved with a married man, when I was younger, and the emotional toll it took on me was horrendous. I knew I was the other woman, knew he would leave my bed and go home to dinner with his wife. Yes he gave me the passion he said he lacked for her, but really in the end I was a fuck doll showered with gifts and attention. His wife was the one who carried his hopes, the one he protected, his partner.

I cheated her out of his passion, and he cheated me out of my need to feel protected. Even if they did have an open realtionship, an "understanding." I can't condemn anyone, but i hope I offer insight into why I feel its cheating.

I think ultimately "cheating" is based on intent and awareness. If you intend to hide your motivations from the person you're partnered with then you're "cheating" them out of trust, and trust and love is really the integral part of a committed relationship.

I think the person that posted before me on this said something about a married man she was involved with cheated her out of feeling protected and cheated his wife out of passion - I don't know if I would call that cheating if both she and the wife were aware of his nature and still continued to accept what he had to offer.

For myself and I'm only speaking for myself, my intentions were to remain faithful emotionally, physically and mentally to my husband - working to keep a happy home (and it is work, you must always be aware of your partner and you must always strive to maintain a balance. To assume anything without going back and re-examining the relationship periodically is like never checking the oil in the car and assuming that it will run forever). When it came down to the wire though, I broke those vows when I realized that I wasn't receiving the same committment that I was giving. I can't say exactly what his intentions were, but I know my spouse intended to lie to me and intended to keep hurting me when I asked him to stop what he was doing or at least cut it back (I did try to be accepting if he were willing to meet me halfway as far as the attention I needed in real life)and he chose not to.

I guess in the long run - and this is so over simplifying - SL did me a favor. Sunday May 22, I'll meet my SL Partner of 6 months in person and I hope as does he that real life will prove as fulfilling and loved filled as second life has been.

cheatinbg on your real life spouse no I don't think so. But then again consider this. if you do have a partner in SL in your profile, why does everyone things you are cheating one her/him if you bed with another avie? is there a different standart because now there are only pixels involved? We forget about the Real person behing the keyboard?

Omg Why Bring This Post Up Again!!!!!!!!!!!! Gesh!!!!!!!!!!

This thread makes me want to play SL with my pants off =)

Why have cyber sex? It is just weird and stupid.

Did you just answer your own question?

Considering the proliferation of cybersex "paraphernalia", I get the feeling it's not "weird" anymore.

Im married in RL and soon to be married in SL. I believe the question in the Poll askes "Do YOU believe its cheating?" not your RL spouse SL spouse or anyone else heheh

Me and my RL have a deal. The deal is she doesnt thing or mind or get jealous of any online relationship of mine so long as it stays sole online in a "game" "grid" "software" "etc etc etc whateever not debateing whether SL is a game or not" as long as I stop asking her to play games online with me. Othes may think thats crazy or whatever. Even if my RL thought it was cheating, I wouldnt consider it cheating. Now if she did think it was cheating and I did it anyways, whether or not I thought it was cheating is beside the point. She would consider it cheating and Id be out the door. Luckily for me she doesnt hehe.

well herm, how is partnered life

HAHAH heya Usagi you were there last night last night when i asked Linda to marry me, at least I think you were. Silver Dollar Saloon. Just asked her last night. Its great btw.

Any Type of sex is cheating .. weather it is in real life ... Cheating /Adultery can be in many forms ... It can be Pyshical /Emtional / or even having the dreams of having sex with another person ... its all the same .... According to the bible .... lookit it up .... And Yes im a cheater ..

But every ones different ... in there rl life relationships some are more open than others ...

And for some our rl Realationship[s were/are in trouble even before we got in sl ....


And have been told by some that it turns the men on whatching what thier Wife is doing in sl ... And makes there love lives even better ...

And i pass no judgement on no one ... as in real and second life ..... Every one had there owns thoughts on this ....

Some ppl are players and some take this more seriously ,,,, just depends on the person ... who is in sl ....

I just wish like the players would be honest with the ones who are more serouis and visa versa ,,,,, So there are not any hurt feeling down the road.....

Zeph

i wish every one happiness

Agreed with you there Zephria. Some of it anyways. Im allways honest about the fact that im married in RL my SL partner knows and i know that she is married in RL. To me Id rather it be that way. Cause its more reassureing that it will stay in SL for sure. There are surely horror stories out there. But I would never do anything that would go against what my wife and I have.

And again we all have our opinons just like we all have ass holes (hehehehe) and thats ok, like you i pass no judgement on anyone that is/isnt/disagrees. We are all entitled and to each his/her own.

It's about intent more than action.

If the fire is gone... has all communication ceased as well or do you hide in SL from your spouse? I can't imagine such a union.