Do you consider AV Sex Cheating on your real life Spouse if the flame has gone?

Honesty isn't always easy. The right road rarely is.

He has made the decision to hide from her that which he wants to get away with. That's pretty much the summary. Do I think that makes him less of a person? In his case, absolutely.

The manner with which he speaks professes volumes about his character. It isn't simply that he is dishonest... but there is a sense of entitlement to the dishonesty which reaks of arrogance and selfishness.

You're making stuff up, now Groucho. Nobody in this entire necro-thread said "tell your partner every thought". There is helpful honesty and there is hurtful honesty, I'm cool with that. But there is also such a thing as "necessary honesty". Mature people know the difference.


More strawmen. I've been very careful to note that I'm no expert, but I do think that 20 years gives me some leverage for my opinion.


I understand that - a lot of my friends agree. I just know that as long as he has a pulse, he will be sexually aware of other women. What he does with that awareness is at question however, not whether he has a pulse. Does one get online and secretly cyberfuck random women, then try to excuse the deception because "they have needs"? Is that the appropriate use of those urges when one is supposedly committed to their spouse?

I vote no, but that's just gonna have to be who I am

I call bullshit on this one. Unless you were just deliberately trying to provoke Derek earlier with your comments about masterbating to cartoons.


Have you also wondered about how she would feel if Derek came clean and admitted his sex life was unfulfilling and that he will in all likelihood she will never fulfill all his wants/needs even if she wanted to (which in itself is highly unlikely)?

Have you really thought this through?

As opposed to never mentioning them? What's the liklihood it can be worked out if it's never even mentioned?



Are you that obtuse naturally or are you just pretending?

It's in the delivery. There's a world of difference between saying it like you said, and saying something like, "You know, honey? There's something I've *always* wanted to try, and it would mean the world to me if you'd just try it out once."

Your false dichotomy doesn't do much to further your argument.




Yes, I do, and no, I'm not. I don't postulate that it will automatically be welcomed. The point is, it will *never* be incorporated into their lives unless he finds the guts to ask. And if he doesn't find that courage, he'll always be turning to somoene else to get that fulfilled. And what a shame that would be, if he could get it at home instead.



Really. How much do you like it when others make a calculated decision on what's best for you?



LOL. Oh my. You do make me laugh. What my husband and I do, what we talk to each other about, what we've explored and experienced might make you blush. Yes, I do believe he tells me what he wants sexually. Why not? I don't believe I've ever not gone for it. And I do the same with him.

It makes me sad that you've apparently not experienced a relationship where that is the case.



Oh, why not? You just made a sweeping generalization in the above paragraph. Don't pretend to be shy now.


eta: this post and the one below are from Lorelei Patel. I was logged on as an alt and forgot. Didn't mean to mislead. Sorry!

You know, I'm starting to think you just don't like women much. Why are you so sure that a woman would reject a request out of hand?

Bingo! We have a winner.

Please tell me how this is "helpful honesty?" Derek has determined (and from scant evidence I agree with him) that telling his wife is in no way helpful. Yet you persist.

Tell me how this ends. How is she better off if he comes clean, given what Derek has told you about her and their relationship. Do you really think she is likely to blossom sexually at this point in her life? Do you think that Derek hasn't tried to nudge her into new and different things?

Really think this through, as I asked Burnman; and don't rely on platitudes such as "honesty is the best policy." Given the current situation of their marriage what are the probabilities on what happens next?

"Necessary honesty," is if it comes to the point where sexual frustration causes Derek to walk out on the marriage, spend the milk money on hookers, or even when his sexual frustration causes him to become irritable to his wife, the kids, the dog, ..., or gets so bad he tries to sleep with the babysitter.

Any thoughts or activities that don't jeopardize the 99% of their relationship that works is not worth mentioning. And if she does happen to catch him in flagrante delicto and that ruins the marriage? Well, if she is that jealous, untrusting, paranoid and irrational then I wouldn't have held high hopes for the "being upfront about it" idea.


No, it really doesn't give you much leverage at all. Info on a single marriage gives you almost no information, in fact it may counter-productive. You "know" how things work because 1 out of 1 times it's worked in the past.

But the part I meant was laughable was when you quoted how long your marriage lasted. As if Derek's 8 year marriage was less valid than your 20 year marriage. At best that is condescending, at worst it is just patently illogical (or maybe the other way around).

I'm not going to answer the same question three times from three different people. I'll pick out what is new and different, and if you're offended and think there is really an original thought that I haven't addressed please resubmit it.


It's a trade-off. You have to balance the potential damage to the individual and to the relationship vs. the chance of acceptance and reward.


You're kidding, right? This is irrelevant and condescending and not worth answering.


If. What a pleasant little world you live in where all sexual needs are fulfilled by just screwing up the courage to ask and maybe just saying "please."

Again, demeaning, condescending and so totally unrealistic that it's laughable.


When it's someone I love, trust and respect, I like it a lot.


Oh, I'm sorry. I'd forgotten that everyone else in the world had such wild and completely satisfying sexual relationships. I guess all the strip clubs, porn, prostitutes, phone chat lines, cybersex, etc. is an illusion.

Were you just boasting, trying to belittle others or did you actually have a point with this?


Is it really that hard to believe that some relationships are not based totally on sex? That it's possible to have a rewarding, fulfilling life with someone who is not exactly matched to your sexual appetite and desires (and continues to be for the next 80 years)?

A woman?

First, you say "request" like Derek will die a happy camper if his wife rolls over and let's him do her doggy-style just this once. The "request" in question is to change her personality and libido, not that he negotiates a birthday blowjob in perpetuity.

Second, it's not a woman. It's his wife that he has known for a lot longer than we have, so why shouldn't I take his opinion of that over yours?

Not worth responding to the point that there are multiple ways to deliver the same message, and that the way you deliver it can have a big effect on the outcome? That's condescending? Really? Amazing.



Not necessarily fulfilled, but addressed. And again, what are the chances they will ever be fulfilled if they are never addressed?



What's laughable is your constant crying of "condescending" given what you followed with. Project much?




No, not everyone does. I'm trying to address why that sometimes is.

I developed my opinions on this after being hit on my countless married men who said some variation of, "I need a woman I can do X with, because my wife would never do X." And when I asked if he ever even approached her about it, 90 percent of the time, the answer was no. Yes, I do find that cowardly. Call it condescending if you will, but I'll call it as I see it, too.



Why, are you jealous? The point is, good things can happen when you screw up the courage to talk about these things. Assuming the worst response really doesn't say much for your beloved (or yourself). You never know until you try. It's a shame so many dont' even try.




Not at all. My relationships with my parents, friends and coworkers are not based on sex. But you better believe sex factors in heavily in my relationship with my husband. And because I love him, I don't want to do something that would hurt him. Derek is playing with fire. Do you really imagine your partners are so stupid that they will never find out about your dalliances? And what happens when they do? Where does that rewarding, fulfilling life with them go then?

I wasn't talking about Derek or his wife. I was talking about you.

What? You were talking about me talking about Derek's situation. You said I don't like women because I thought Derek's wife would not be open to a wild new sex life.

Good analysis, sorry to see you're backing down on it.

This referred to more than one woman, did it not?

There are times when preserving the status quo is not enough. What is in a persons best interest is not always what makes that person happy in the short-term.

In other words, yes, I'm saying it. Lies and deception to preserve a status quo that forces more lies and deception to sustain it are terrible, and anyone living that type of life needs to seriously get wacked upside the head by life a few times and realize that preventing short-term strife through such means is not worth it.

Been there, done that. Got the T-shirt.

Groucho knows everything, he is the forum swami machine. How dare you question him or his inexhaustible supply of "logic"?

Point taken. I'll stop.

So very well said. And I got the lousy T-shirt too

Yes, it's condescending to think that Derek's problems are so easily addressed. He must be either the biggest coward or the greatest moron to never have realized it was so easy.


You boast about how wild and open your sex life is, and presumably that you and your mate are so perfectly suited in every other way. What was the point again? Why can't everyone be just like you, all it takes is a little honesty and a little courage, right?


There's that X factor, again. Did you further your research by checking why they didn't ask?

Let's say for sake of argument that "X" is anal sex. Do you just assume that those 90% of guys are just clueless? Maybe half of them have observed that their wives are not that into sex, and only grudgingly give a blowjob once a month. Maybe they've watched porn and their wives grimaced and made disparaging comments at the anal scenes. Maybe they've tried playing with her ass and had her turn away.

So if those guys had indeed asked, what percentage of the women would just turn over and say "thank god, I was waiting for this glorious day?" Best case for many of these guys is that she would grudgingly "allow" them to, which is oh so great a turn on.

Oh, I know you're going to say that it's so sad and pathetic that my friends and neighbors aren't married to the anal whores (and I do mean that in a nice way) that you and all your friends are, but I think my world is more based in reality than yours.


Thanks, Mom. I really will ask the head cheerleader to the prom today.


It is playing with fire either way. He's taken the choice that maximizes his happiness and his wife's happiness, and has the least chance of damaging his marriage, in his opinion.


Your husband is not Derek's wife. What works for you may not work for him.

That was not the post you quoted. This was:

And you persist in not grasping the whole picture here. I'm sure millions of married couples go through their entire lives living lies and making it work - does that make them happy? Does it make them good people? What Derek has chosen is to deceive and keep secrets. I don't know of any ethical systems that place that in the category of "admirable".


Before you and I (and Derek) presume to predict his wife's reactions, why is there only a binary solution here? Marital counselors make their living out of helping couples rebuild from the wreckage of lies & deceit. If the couple is willing and determined, they might actually realize that (using Derek as an example again, sorry Derek, but you did volunteer ) the reasons for the deceit and secrets could have been addressed another way, if the partner had been more willing to change too. In real terms, then, Derek's wife would realize what her sexual preferences (or lack thereof) had done to the marriage and endeavor to be more open and accomodating as long as Derek was willing to be more attentive to her.

There's a lot of risk and a lot of work in that process, but it can be worth it -- once in a while, a discovered infidelity can actually serve to reawaken a marriage, but only if both people are ready to do the work and make changes.


THe probabilities are that she will discover his secrets. I don't care how "smart" he thinks he is, it will come out. Secrets always do.


My whole point is that the part that seems to "work" is really just an illusion. It's not working if one of them has to lie.


If she's unwilling to attend counselling with him and listen to his side of it, maybe it's best if it ended anyway.


Those 20 years include a hundred issues, a thousand daily struggles, but always the knowledge that we were both pulling in the same direction. It's not a voice of authority at all -- but it is the voice of experience.


Yet I did not say it was more valid. Only more experienced --- and more honest.

Nolan, did you have a point to make on this topic or do you just have a previous issue with me and like stirring up shit?

You're not the forum director, nor are you the end-all-be-all authority on any topic you choose to comment on. Deal with your control issues, alt troll.

My mother lived lies for some 23 odd years. What did it get her? Depression, ulcers, children who couldn't wait to get the hell out of the place, and ultimately a divorce.

So by all means, let's all keep on living lies, it's obviously good for health, children, and marriage.

I'm sorry to see that you feel the need to follow me around and attempt to sabotage any hope I have of carrying on an intelligent, open discussion with your ad hominem attacks.

What's the old adage about being able to deal it but not take it? How many threads prior to this did you come unhinged at me when I hadn't even addressed you? But now you're getting all crybaby on me for returning the favor once, eh?

You're good at irony - hold onto that, because as a debater, you fall well short of the mark. That's probably because you like to rescript everyone's arguments you "debate" with, tell them what they are thinking, and talk to them as if they were children. How many arguments in how many threads do you have to be simultaneously a part of, dealing your pompous and condescending claptrap, before you realize that you are the one consistency in all of it?

(Conjuring my predecessors) it's admirable to see the productive discussion that took place here... this is quite an old thread.

However, that time has unfortunately past and respectable debates have degraded into personal disputes. So I'm closing it.
Per the forum Guidelines.