ALL ALTS listed in your profile

Actually Tcoz I made an observation based on information gleaned from the context of your initial posting and subsequent postings. Therefore again as an observation I did not attack you I merely stated the context of your initial posting based on my understanding of it.

If you felt that I attacked you personally I sincerely apologize for that.

However, in retort to your statment about self governance. You noted that I did not read your revised edition of your statment.

I actually did and I do understand what your saying. However, based on your reply you are not taking into consideration several of the other factors involved. Again this based on my observation of your text.



I understand you found my comments insulting then again many do when I simply state facts of observation. Now to continue in direct observation of the aforequoted text. Primarly because it was in direct response to a post I made and relates to other incidents that I am fully familure with.

1) Understandable your not being griefed then that only leads to one other thought.
Is someone you know is being griefed or have they been continually griefed, if so, for that I am sincerely sorry.

2) We are all just as tired of it as you are Tcoz but to force listing all alts in a primary account is a violation of privacy Period.
I am not calling you any names or telling you to shut up.
I am merely asking you to reevaluate things as your sentiment in this ,based again on the replys that you have made thus far, is you are not wanting to give up your position on this be it right or wrong.
This is a direct observation.
I even gave a alternate proposal that could possibly benifit everyone and give people benifit of the doubt. I did not respond without an alternative to what you are advocating. Unfortunately you insulted me as well by summarly dismissing it and my view points on self governance as being, to qoute you, "Bullshit". I could have resorted to childish rhetoric a name calling but that is beneath me now as is griefers.

3 Unfortunately, the tools you provided people, have been used as a griefing tool more so than they have been used as tools to fight back.

I have had more friends that have been "Assaulted" with a Tcoz scripted bannisher by a griefer than I can count in the past two years.

I defended you on many occasion stating that you merely wrote the script and were not responsible for its implimentation.

Yes, as you said I do not know you in world and I have had a great respect for you initially. But looking back on it and you refreshing my memory on the bannisher scripts has made me look at things in a new light especially in relation to the topic of this thread.

Stooping to the Level of the griefers is not the way to combat them. Creating bannishing scripts, listng alts even in a "Chronic" griefers account only serves one thing and that is to give Griefers more ammunition to assualt the innocent. Imagine if you will a griefer using the tools IE reporting a person repeatedly to get thier alts listed in thier account. Then this Griefer summarly gets 2 more credit cards and opens 10 more accounts and summarly griefs the innocent and their alts till that individual quits. This is the door your opening Tcoz and there are many other doors in relation to this that will create the same effect.

So in closing this Tcoz I fully understand what your proposing. I feel your pain of the griefing aspect. Yet I will not submit nor sucumb to being oppressed through a yes "Selfish" whim of change to combat someone that is merely going to use this as a badge of honor, or courage, or even a tool for that matter, to continue their crusade.

If I have insulted you through direct observation and disection of your text for my understanding I will not apologize for that. I will however, apologize for making generalizations based on the context of your initial posting.

At this point we can agree to disagree yet remember I have not said "no that sucks and so do you".
I have merely said "No! that sucks" step back out of the box and look at the big picture. Take the apparent<<apparent being noted from the sentiment of your postings>> blinders off and see that your proposal will do more damage than it will good.

I wish you the best in your endeavors but I will fight this proposal tooth and nail just like I will fight self governance as both go hand in hand with future oppression of the masses and that is where my intolerance begins.

Sincerely, Shadow

I like Shadow's proposal the best. It's very fair and definitely makes a lot of sense to me!

Arti
(edited for spelling errrrrors)

I don't have any alts, I never have, either.

However, I still have a right to my own opinion. I think alts are fine. If someone is say, a key major roleplayer in SL, and wants to escape their busy hectic second life to enjoy some peaceful build time, or what have you, then let them be.

If someone is harassing yuo for some reason, abuse report them. if you know they're the same person in an alt, and they're abusing you? Abuse report them too! This has worked well for me against those that would abuse.

ok, this is nuts. The *only* way I can concentrate on getting things built, is if I do it as an alt. Otherwise, i'm paged, pinged, questioned, bothered, every minute.

Sometimes, I just don't want to be badgered about avatars. Why shouldn't I have a right to that?

how do people who use alts to build make that work? doesn't the alt own the objects and have all the permissions plus their name on it?

Careful Michi, you might get accused of not reading through all 16 pages of posts.

The alt just gives the object to their main account with full permissions. The main account makes a copy of the object, the copy now shows the main account as the creator.

In the case of builders (ie shops/houses/places), most I know use their main account to build and do PR while using their alts to get away from it all and relax or even do R&D.

huh?? i just tried that with two different objects people gave me with full permissions and they are still listed as the creators of the copies. you can't change the creator of an object. no one would sell things with copy permissions if you could.

I've seen this happen.... it's not really as straight forward as that, I don't think. But if you aren't -really- careful with your permissions, things can get out of hand on you.

For the record, I don't believe there are bugs with permissions, just careless use. I think the system could be a little easier to use.

I DO NOT think alts should be listed in profiles, but do wish LL would quit dicking us around and get rid of the trouble makers. All this legal talk is silly. Expulsion is the answer. Why don't we see more of this?

Anna probably meant that the other way around. If the main hands over 'a' object and the alt works from that, then it will still show the main as the creator. When yer done, you just hand the finished product back over to your main.

Mike, Yes there are bugs with the permissions system as I just turned in a big one to Dan and Jill Linden recently. They are trying to resolve it and all I can say is it does circumvent every permission you apply through usage of the Linden Tools. Its not a simple fix one either. So, sorry not being rude nor dismissive just corrective in your understanding.

Back to the topic at hand.

The -multiple switch added to the Shortcut Target command line allows two instances of Second Life to run different accounts at the same time.

Example: "C:\Program Files\SecondLife\SecondLife.exe" -multiple

Yes, it would be compromised. When I'm trying to build new stuff, and I have to do that on an alt (which I do) to avoid literally 3-5 hours worth of "OMG CAN YOU SHOW ME HOW TO CHANGE MY HAIR COLOR" messages, I'd never get anything done.

I've never done anything but personal, private things with my alts (backup of objects, getting some quiet time to build or work on something) and don't think I should be punished just because some people misuse it.

Even though my Give a Damn is busted Tcoz I find this rather humorous that you in one stance you post this about alts yet in another thread you post for the protection of peoples privacy. So tell me which side of the Fence are you on?

Well, I've jumped the gun and decided to list all my alts pro-actively... check my profile in world if you don't believe me!

Roger that! I believe its the only way to go, sorry, I have to go and do some work for SL Boutique now! The wicked never rest!

Regards

Willow

Phew, I'm glad that new code is working okay on SLB.

-Willow <3

I doubt the Lindens will go for this since many have Alts that allow them to freely travel around their creation with-out being mobbed everywhere they go.

Welcome to the real world.

I've been on the Internet since before it was called that, and no online community has been able to avoid the problems of the real world... but public anonymity (not anonymity from LL, but not leaving a trail so wide people with less savory intent can easily track you down) is critical.

I've known, personally, people who lost their jobs, and one who committed suicide over it... because someone "outed" them after tracking them down online.

You'd lose that bet. But I'm not going to go into details because it's not my place to out anyone. And it's not Linden Labs' place to do it either.

I'm not sure how you can resolve the conflict in these two sentences. Either the Lindens aren't going to do anything about it, in which case they're not going to list the alts of chronic griefers either, or they are, in which case they have much better tools at their disposal than one which can be so easily abused. You want to find out who someone's alts are? File a bunch of abuse reports on them! Maybe you'll get lucky and you can tie one of the alts to a real person and you can start harassing them in real life...
Me.

It's not your place to decide what's a "legitimate" alt and what isn't.

The only proposal that makes sense is for LL to silently apply the same sanctions against all characters on the same account... whether those are bans applied by LL or bans applied by landowners. There would be no leak of personal information, but griefers would no longer be able to hide behind alts. I find it hard to see how any kind of public pillory could even be considered worth proposing until this possibility has been eliminated.

I have no alts in SL at this time. So far, performance here with my current hardware hasn't encouraged me to spend even a one-time fee to create an alt. But that is another issue entirely.

However, in other RP forums, I have had as many as ten logins. In some cases I would have two or three of them on-line at once, sometimes interacting with the same group, sometimes off doing their own things.

Why?

Some were created because, for some types of roleplay, I'd rather be seen and accepted as a male instead of a female. In those cases, I don't want to be known as "That guy that's run by a girl". So I would create an alt who always refers to their Player as being male, and who does their level best to act like a real male. (Incidentally, I NEVER date people in RL that I interact with in on-line RP's, no matter what sort of 'relationship' our characters may develop.)

Some are because I want to play a "Furry" character, while at other times I want to be a 'normal Human'. Some people don't like furries. So if there was an anti-furry griefer hanging around, and I wanted to do something where they were, I might log off and come back a bit later as a normal Human.

In some cases, it's just because I wanted to be part of a different social circle. A character who was presented as a technologically savvy male human from an advanced civilization would gravitate to different friends than a shy female vixen who only used bronze-age and earlier technologies.

None of my alts were ever created to harm anyone. They were, by and large, created to enhance the illusion that I wished to present for each role that I was playing. I would be extremely upset if someone 'outed' all my alts. It would be like having someone stand by the edge of a stage while a professional Magician is performing, shouting out 'spoilers' about how everything works, and running on stage to turn props around and reveal how an illusion works. It destroys the 'magic' that the performer is attempting to create.

I fully agree that people who engage in griefer activities should be banned. And not just for a little while, either. If the Lindens want this to be a fun world to play in, then people who persist in engaging in griefer actions should be banned for life. We don't need people like that. Period. Give them a few increasingly long bans as warnings, and on the third try, eject them forever. Other RP forums do that. Why should SL be so tolerant of people who destroy the game for others.

Even if I had alts I doubt I would list them my profile. This thread certainly hasn't given me any reason to do so.

There is no point arguing this back and forth.

Why ? Because it simply is not possible for LL to reliably identify alts.

Any attempt will suffer from both types of error. Non-alts will be erroneously identified as such. Alts will evade detection.

This is the reason LL do nothing. They are intelligent enough to realise they are powerless against all but a very feeble opponent, and would accuse many innocents even to achieve very little.