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Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden |
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Mariana McBride
Open sim abuser
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 26
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11-06-2008 13:12
i just said, openspace rental HOMES are illegal. i didnt say renting out openspace was illegal. If i read in my convenant residential and low commercial i think i can do "low commercial" by renting residences. I think if you sell a product and after that you charge more but you do not improve but you downgrade that product must be illegal if it isn't. |
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Paracelsus Schonberg
Registered User
Join date: 11 May 2008
Posts: 375
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Just a moment of your time, please: Let us buy SL
11-06-2008 13:16
What I propose is that LL sells SL to its residents. This is one case where the customer would benefit.
In SL, there is incredible talent: Scripters/programmers, visionaries, marketers, scientists, educators, artists, successful RL business owners, on and on. There are numerous examples of successful RL cooperatives. Doesn't mean people can't earn a living, but it would mean that the participants would have an active voice in the affairs of the virtual world. People would come first, and the coop could respond to their needs. No company is a true democracy, but a company based on mutual respect between management and customer can succeed. This may not make millionaires of the owners, but it would be a world in which the residents have opportunities to make a RL living and still maintain the community spirit that SL has become. Bottom line about LL: LL provides little to no substantial content to SL - a point they seem to have forgotten. LL provides servers, but it appears they do not know how to run them. LL provides customer service. Open for debate. LL interest is in earning money, that's cool - but not at the expense of destroying what others have built for free. |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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11-06-2008 13:18
here's something for you to read http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/other-grids-virtual-worlds/17148-legal-action-against-frank-corsi-2.html For those who don't have personal liability coverage for Internet content, this may be something to keep in mind here, too, quite above and beyond any moderation in this forum. |
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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11-06-2008 13:20
After reading 90+ pages of these comments, I'm feeling a lot better about my fellow residents. When I originally posted about my admiration for the marketing job Linden Lab had pulled off, it looked like the majority of people had accepted M. Linden's new Openspace plan as some sort of compromise, or even improvement on the original proposal. That perception was based on the early posts to this thread.
I'm glad my cynicism was misplaced. Though some people still seem to have accepted the new plan as an improvement, it seems that most posters here read and understand the fine print. I think the first blush of approval for the new plan (that I was reacting to) was based on a combination of residual goodwill towards Linden Lab, and the fact that M. Linden's post did not include the deal-breaking fine print linked to in the knowledge base article. I tender my apologies to my fellow Second Life residents. I'm afraid I tend to expect the worst of my fellow human beings. I'm delighted to have been wrong in this case. _____________________
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Cage Conacher
Registered User
Join date: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 4
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Wrong Again Katt
11-06-2008 13:21
Katt Linden's Post:
"Advertisements do not belong in this thread. Please keep your discussions on topic and refrain from accusations and naming names. Thanks! -- Katt" 1.) I believe it is perfectly apropriate for residents to advise other residents that there are alternatives out there and I am pleased to have some links to those alternatives. 2.) I referred to Linden Labs as greedy, dishonest, and arrogant. Those so-called labeled names by you have clear dictionary definitions and the actions taken by Linden Labs are facts supported by ample evidence to place Linden Labs directly within the definition of those words. On a side note, I find it quite interesting that hundres of posts appear over several hours passing and the first Linden to respond is concerned about residents advising other residents of alternatives to Second Life versus a Linden bellying up to the bar and stating something simple like, "Yep, we tried to pull a fast one, underestimated the intelligence and common sense of our residents, got caught with our messy pants down, and we're sorry." -Cage Co-owner of whispering Pines Estates |
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Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
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11-06-2008 13:24
I tender my apologies to my fellow Second Life residents. I'm afraid I tend to expect the worst of my fellow human beings. I'm delighted to have been wrong in this case. You mean... it's even worse than you first thought?? _____________________
~ This space has been abandoned as I can no longer afford it.
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Jini Hammerer
The green chick
Join date: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 196
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11-06-2008 13:24
Katt Linden's Post: "Advertisements do not belong in this thread. Please keep your discussions on topic and refrain from accusations and naming names. Thanks! -- Katt" 1.) I believe it is perfectly apropriate for residents to advise other residents that there are alternatives out there and I am pleased to have some links to those alternatives. 2.) I referred to Linden Labs as greedy, dishonest, and arrogant. Those so-called labeled names by you have clear dictionary definitions and the actions taken by Linden Labs are facts supported by ample evidence to place Linden Labs directly within the definition of those words. On a side note, I find it quite interesting that hundres of posts appear over several hours passing and the first Linden to respond is concerned about residents advising other residents of alternatives to Second Life versus a Linden bellying up to the bar and stating something simple like, "Yep, we tried to pull a fast one, underestimated the intelligence and common sense of our residents, got caught with our messy pants down, and we're sorry." -Cage Co-owner of whispering Pines Estates Katt is a peace keeper, don't aim your guns at her. She is not responsable for any of this mess. |
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Amilie Anatine
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 38
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Chaos, yours was a good post, i think everyone should visit this
11-06-2008 13:25
After a post I made earlier today which quoted a Linden telling someone that it was certainly ok to rent out OS regions as residences........... --cut out for brevity--AA Jack Linden: (name removed), if you;re referring to the chatlog that was from 7 months ago, that was a question about a different product. in fact even then the KB was clear on that point it's just unfortunate that the advice given wasn't spot on --cut for brevity--AA Jack Linden: (name removed), , to my knowledge we have never marketed openspaces as being for rentals, malls, clubs or any of the many uses other than our original statement that they were for light use scenery <cut out for brevity--AA Jack Linden: (name removed), , i understand what you're saying and I can't speak for all bits of advice that our 100+ customer service staff may have given, but nevertheless, they were clearly described in the kb, linked to from the landstore, as ocen/parkland i believe <cut for brevity--but the above is a juicy one /me covers eyes at the car-wreck--AA Now then explain to me how that back in 2006 in response to a forum post about the then 1875 prim Open Space sims, Jack Linden posted this himself here: /130/cb/107206/2.html#post1042460/130/cb/107206/2.html#post1042460 .....<cut for brevity--another juicer AA So now we have not only Linden reps quoted from when the first 3750 prim OS regions were released telling people it was ok to use them as residences for rentals, in fact almost encouraging the usage as such, the KB articles that state the OS regions CAN be used for other things, and now a quote from Jack himself that basically states that such usage while not recommended is certainly allowed - this is hard documenation that such usage has always been allowed (at least for the past 2 years concerning OS regions) and NEVER is there something saying that such usage was NOT allowed, just not recommended (there is a HUGE difference) . his post is found here: /356/24/291220/58.html#post2211426 very good points chaos, and so now i retract my original definitions of what is illegal and what is not illegal because right now im completely confused as neither Jack nor M knows how to clearly define what is legal and illegal with the openspace - its so vague and allows them to change the rules of the game (and unfortunatelybreeds mistrust in the players) BAIT and SWITCH i was wrong to say that when something is "not recommended" its illegal. that is bad logic on my part sorry. but if people are going against recommendations, they are risking alot, and these are the people i am critical of. why would you try to push the limits of something that is not recommended? then you wont have a leg to stand on when it gets taken away, and this is why you are so frustrated. thankfully i didnt buy an openspace and so therefore i am not affected directly by this, but i am affected by the general mood and the disappointment of this PR disaster. M im glad that you created a situation where prices dont go up, but youve taken away 75% of the prims to do that. BAD.. i wish i understood more about how prims actually cost money, i simply dont get it. all i think about are people standing in front of servers, same amount of work same amount of people regardless of how much prims are running through them, at least after the servers have already been paid for, and i imagine they have cause of the setup fees right? |
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KevinM Vollmar
Registered User
Join date: 2 May 2007
Posts: 8
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96 pages, 1440 responses, nothings changed
11-06-2008 13:28
So after reading 95 pages of dissent, and at least one of LL Fanboys doing the Rah rah go LL, the only responses from LL are:
1. Dont call attention to our competing services in this forum. 2. Jack Linden responding to an obvious chink in thier corporate armor, while still defending thier position that the users of SL and the Operators of OS sims are responsible for this debacle. I find I have hit my drama quotient. Hope this works out for those of you that have invested heavily in this company. Im over it. |
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AzA Zymurgy
Registered User
Join date: 1 May 2007
Posts: 32
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Or they will come up with another option....
11-06-2008 13:29
I can't help but think (or maybe I've been reading too many Linden blog entries lately) that we will get an announcement telling us that our constructive comments have been heard and they will bring a third product to the table: 1875 prims for 95USD. Or maybe not...... Or maybe they will come out with another option..... minus 500 prims on 10m sq of land and they get to come round and steal candy from your children and take the money directly from your wallet. This will be re-titled the OpenScam sim. Just a thought..... |
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Vye Graves
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 249
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11-06-2008 13:29
I think the loading screen is a bad place for advertising too, unless they are going to rent out space on it so anyone can.
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Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
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11-06-2008 13:30
Actually... might be worth a scroll down a little further, too, to Cristiano's post. He warns posters to that thread that they're responsible for what they post, "including legally. There are a lot of accusations and counter-accusations and threats of legal action. In light of that, it is probably not wise to be airing all of this in public." For those who don't have personal liability coverage for Internet content, this may be something to keep in mind here, too, quite above and beyond any moderation in this forum. Worth more than a scroll. People need to study up on who is directly related and/or a professional associate/alt of who and amongst all the who people need to understand the past history of all the who that is leading people into potentially undesirable outcomes and to what end. I.e.; we have a bunch of people with something to gain, namely credit card and identity information, from a mass exodus from SL. All I can do is shake my head. When you find yourself falling into a state of emotional stimulation you need to back off and get away from the situation until you can view it with a clear head. |
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Dianne Davies
Whispering Pines Estates
Join date: 1 Oct 2007
Posts: 168
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Unreal!
11-06-2008 13:31
Apparently freedom of speech as we know it, and yes we even have laws about that here in Canada, are not honoured here in SL.
For comments I have made here in the blog I am being giving a "friendly" warning. As I am indeed over the age of 8 I do not need to be told when/how/why to speak. Its a right I have to post here, there, anywhere and I am still waiting to hear what I said that was so offensive. I understand its happening to others, I know for sure of it happening to Sarah Nerd who actually was unable to post I believe for a period of time. Its sad when thats what you need to resort to - just to try to hide the truth, the facts. very sad Katt and I am still awaiting your reply - and believe I deserve same. 13:20] Katt Linden: Hi, this is Katt Linden, I'm the Linden who moderates the forums. Please take it down a notch -- it's not appropriate to fight or make accusations about individuals in the forums. This is your friendly warning. Thanks, Katt [13:21] Dianne Davies: Hi Katt..nice to meet you  [13:21] Dianne Davies: and I'm sorry.I've done nothing wrong..and said nothing that hsould be moderated or censored in any way that I'm aware of..can you please point out exactly what you are referrring to? |
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Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
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11-06-2008 13:33
I think the loading screen is a bad place for advertising too, unless they are going to rent out space on it so anyone can. I bet if you offered the going rate for that many eyes to see an implied product endorsement then maybe LL would do that on a case by case basis. You won't know till you make a reasonable market price offer. |
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Katt Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 256
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11-06-2008 13:34
Katt Linden's Post: "Advertisements do not belong in this thread. Please keep your discussions on topic and refrain from accusations and naming names. <snip> On a side note, I find it quite interesting that hundreds of posts appear over several hours passing and the first Linden to respond is concerned about residents advising other residents of alternatives I read about one page of this thread, and had to moderate some posts; by the time I was done there were three new pages. Less fighting/outright ads/ = more time for Lindens to participate. |
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Dax Greer
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 11
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ummm not so fast
11-06-2008 13:34
i just said, openspace rental HOMES are illegal. i didnt say renting out openspace was illegal. /130/cb/107206/2.html#post1042460/130/cb/107206/2.html#post1042460 you should really read that!!! |
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Barb Carson
Registered User
Join date: 11 May 2006
Posts: 230
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11-06-2008 13:38
I read about one page of this thread, and had to moderate some posts; by the time I was done there were three new pages. Less fighting/outright ads/ = more time for Lindens to participate. So are you saying that Jack and M are also moderators? Or are you the only Linden on the case? And you are going to post about this situation with some policies and answers to questions? Or you would if you had time? Could you clarify? I mean I appreciate all you do and this is a rolling thread but perhaps if questions were answered we wouldnt be posting our frustration so much. shrugs |
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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11-06-2008 13:41
Katt Linden's Post: "Advertisements do not belong in this thread. Please keep your discussions on topic and refrain from accusations and naming names. Thanks! -- Katt" 1.) I believe it is perfectly apropriate for residents to advise other residents that there are alternatives out there and I am pleased to have some links to those alternatives. 2.) I referred to Linden Labs as greedy, dishonest, and arrogant. Those so-called labeled names by you have clear dictionary definitions and the actions taken by Linden Labs are facts supported by ample evidence to place Linden Labs directly within the definition of those words. On a side note, I find it quite interesting that hundres of posts appear over several hours passing and the first Linden to respond is concerned about residents advising other residents of alternatives to Second Life versus a Linden bellying up to the bar and stating something simple like, "Yep, we tried to pull a fast one, underestimated the intelligence and common sense of our residents, got caught with our messy pants down, and we're sorry." -Cage Co-owner of whispering Pines Estates Here here well stated and politely to _____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants.
http://slapt.me  slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26 |
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Ninja Kawabata
Registered User
Join date: 6 Nov 2005
Posts: 135
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Sick of SL
11-06-2008 13:42
Im tired of the BS and abuse by LL, I have started shutting down my sims, I hope the lose there shirts on the amount of sims that are closing down.
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Be Part of the Action Join the Coast Guard Auxilary and help save lives
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Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
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11-06-2008 13:42
Jack and M are the two Lindens responsible for this mess.
Katt is merely acting as a forum moderator in this case, and cannot be blamed for the mess of Jack and M. Don't shoot the messenger and all that. However, I'm sure I speak for many in making a request of Katt... "Leave the moderating for a few minutes, go and poke M and tell him to get over here and post something" _____________________
~ This space has been abandoned as I can no longer afford it.
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Hiawatha Kapelusz
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 95
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11-06-2008 13:42
I read about one page of this thread, and had to moderate some posts; by the time I was done there were three new pages. Less fighting/outright ads/ = more time for Lindens to participate. The reason people are getting upset is that we do not understand your price hikes and not answering any of the questions .. when the name of this thread is : Open Spaces Announcement and TALK with M and Jack ... where are they Talking ? |
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Vye Graves
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 249
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11-06-2008 13:44
I can't understand how people can think this is accidental or just mismanagement. It's a lot like politics. We'd much rather think of people as stupid than dishonest and willing to rip us off.
I remember walking around in Bay City wondering who the morons were that were paying $100+ per meter for what appeared to be, well, same old same old. They're cleaning up the standard mainland too now finally. LL can sell us whole sims for $250 or 1024's for even more than that in these supposedly nice new areas. I do not believe they ever intended us to keep these openspaces. This was timed to exactly coincide with the summer. The push in March, with the half price, double prim openspaces, and when fall arrives they switch the definition of the service, offer us 1/5th the prims or something a lot more expensive and also limited in use. Shame on you LL. I do not believe that people will flee from openspaces to your new planned communities. Even if they did want to live in some boring, predigested place they took no part in planning, how could they trust you? You tell us up front you can take away or modify anything you sell us whenever you like. I fought the idea for ages, but now I agree. People who buy virtual land are fools, and fools and their money are soon parted. I am not going to be a fool anymore, |
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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11-06-2008 13:44
I think the loading screen is a bad place for advertising too, unless they are going to rent out space on it so anyone can. I noticed that was changed shortly after it was pointed out in the forum  _____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants.
http://slapt.me slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26 |
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Amilie Anatine
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 38
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11-06-2008 13:44
yeah i read it (*head on desk*) thanks to you and chaos for clearing this up - what was i thinking actually believe LL had a clear policy!. gosh Jack, please just get straight with us why dont you you are sounding like a lawyer and not the good kind. M, stop looking for loopholes to make money. the thing about virtual worlds, 2.0 and community discussions and boards, well we are like the star treck borg. many minds are reasoning this out (many smart ones too) we will compile all the data and find your weaknesses. and believe me im not a fan-boy, or fan-girl. |
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Equinox Pinion
Registered User
Join date: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 101
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11-06-2008 13:47
I read about one page of this thread, and had to moderate some posts; by the time I was done there were three new pages. Less fighting/outright ads/ = more time for Lindens to participate. What did you expect Katt? you upset almost all of your residends with your new OS policy and you think you will have just 3 posts per hour? Why are other lindens not talking with us? I just came back from a meeting with Jack and after 60 min he told us...ok my 1 hour meeting is over, have to go, even many people there didnt get an answer to the question they had. Which company can afford to do that? |