Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

Of course not, because your server isn't doing the most computationally intensive thing that Linden Labs' servers are doing, running Havok 4. You're not even running Havok 1. Can you even walk on prim platforms yet?

Different price yes, different prim count? No it's the same prim count as the Openspace I purchased in August.

There is no upgrade fee so I don't quite get your point about upgrade fees. If you want a new one after the January deadline it will cost more.



Openspace rentals were not illegal. Where on earth have you got that gem from? They still aren't illegal either. You can rent them out, just not if it's for residential or commercial usage. Which pretty much limits the reasons anyone would want to rent but it's certainly not illegal to rent someone an openspace to use as scenery.

From the Wiki: "When new changes go into place, they will support 3750 prims and 20 avatars, and will likely also have script limits. "

Ummm....I have 3750 prims now Amilie.

"likely also to have script limits"...likely. Uh huh.

Shall we have a little bet as to whether this is implemented by Jan?

Nothing is changing. Only the name.

I would also question your use of the words "legal" and "illegal".

A different price does not make it a different product....in ANY business.

Actually the prim limits are exactly the same as existing Open spaces !!!!

I am with you totally on this Poppy !! and sorry didn't notice your original post pointing out the prim limits . Thank you

Your blog was imprecise wrt educational discount on Homestead regions...

>> We will offer an educational discount to qualified educators on the
>> new Homestead product. The discount amount will be the same as
>> Private Regions, roughly 30%.

30% is the discount on the capital cost of full regions and open spaces at the moment, and 50% discount applies to the maintenance of those products.

See http://secondlife.com/land/privatepricing.php

Can you confirm that the educational discount on homesteads will be 50% of the new prices you have announced? Otherwise, again you are making these areas disproportionately more expensive for educators, given that the now more limited open spaces without educational discount are going to double in price for educators.

Advertisements do not belong in this thread.

Please keep your discussions on topic and refrain from accusations and naming names.

Thanks!
-- Katt

lol, you're welcome Prophet - we wrote and posted at the same time ;D...and then I edited inbetween.

LOL i got a sneaking suspicion you could be correct there,

Unless you are teaching forestry or surfing or something, regular openspaces probably aren't what you want anyway. If you are building at all, from what I understand, you have to have a homestead.

I assume you mean against each other, not LL. It would be impossible to discuss this without making accusations about LL. The act we are discussing is wrongdoing, so any discussion of it could be considered an accusation.

What dismays me the most of all is that I really love SL, I love the people, the creativity, the passion that people display. When I first started 2 years ago I was immediately drawn in by the sense of community spirit. In the time on SL I have also met and interacted with many Lindens, volunteered a lot of my time to help others, and participated in quite a few community events such as the recent Burning Life - the sad thing is that this whole OS fiasco has seriously soured me on SL. The lack of customer relations, the cover ups and misdirection, and sometimes even what I consider blatent lies have just made me question whether or not I want to remain.

After a post I made earlier today which quoted a Linden telling someone that it was certainly ok to rent out OS regions as residences, Jack himself made this response to that today at his office hours:
(name removed): You offered us a product 6 months ago, now you tell us you want 67% more for it and in your second proposal you even put limits on it. You miss leaded us to get us to buy that good offer and now you want to cash in. People who bought in that period have a right to get there setup fee back as you told them clearly in support chat it is ok to use it for living. Do you plan to pay the people back who bought in that period?

Jack Linden: (name removed), if you;re referring to the chatlog that was from 7 months ago, that was a question about a different product. in fact even then the KB was clear on that point it's just unfortunate that the advice given wasn't spot on

(hmmm much the same advice as what you gave 2 years ago about OS regions Jack?)

and this:
(name removed), : ok Jack if we avccept that it's not only about prims, the fact still remains you provided a product that you marketed in a particular way and are now saying that it cannot be used for that unless it is paid for at a hugely inflated price, almost like saying hey we gave you this washing machine but ohhh we accidently delivered a different one but you have to now pay the difference

Jack Linden: (name removed), , to my knowledge we have never marketed openspaces as being for rentals, malls, clubs or any of the many uses other than our original statement that they were for light use scenery

in addition, this question and response:

(name removed), : asks again ) Jack,f a linden told someone that Linden were not saying that you couldn't Rent out or Live on an open space sim but that it just wasn't recommended..............could that be construed by any Normal thinking person that if they wanted to the could rent out or live on an open space sim. And if a Linden did say that how would that effect the situation now..........A strange question but one that is extremely relevant )))
Jack Linden: (name removed), , i understand what you're saying and I can't speak for all bits of advice that our 100+ customer service staff may have given, but nevertheless, they were clearly described in the kb, linked to from the landstore, as ocen/parkland i believe

Now then explain to me how that back in 2006 in response to a forum post about the then 1875 prim Open Space sims, Jack Linden posted this himself here: /130/cb/107206/2.html#post1042460



So even 2 years ago, before they upped the doubled the prims and took away the attached to a main sim requirement (which to most people indicated an ability for greater usage), Jack himself made a post saying that usage on even the 1875 prim OS regions was allowed (maybe not recommended, but still allowed)

So now we have not only Linden reps quoted from when the first 3750 prim OS regions were released telling people it was ok to use them as residences for rentals, in fact almost encouraging the usage as such, the KB articles that state the OS regions CAN be used for other things, and now a quote from Jack himself that basically states that such usage while not recommended is certainly allowed - this is hard documenation that such usage has always been allowed (at least for the past 2 years concerning OS regions) and NEVER is there something saying that such usage was NOT allowed, just not recommended (there is a HUGE difference)

Now, while I have tried in previous posts to offer up some positive suggestions to fix this to the benefit of both LL and the residents, I guess I am just one of those 'passionate' ones that gets really irked by the lack of responsibility that LL has taken for this current situation. I think many people feel the same as I do on this and that the current solution that is being offered is not acceptable and needs to be changed, and changed quickly if many of us are to remain here on SL. Jack (and yes I know he is mostly just a messenger) has said that LL needs to fully evaluate the usage etc of these sims before making determinations on limits etc - the best solution then is to evaluate first BEFORE changing the prices that the current owner are paying. If they want to increase the fees for new ones, fine. If they want to create new classes of sims, fine, but until the details and specifics are worked out so everyone can know EXACTLY what they are going to be paying for, leave the current fees as is (as in the ones now, not the January ones). At the very least, since they have already made the determination of the two new classes of OS regions, fine, go ahead and make those distinctions, but do not change the pricing until you have evaluated the server loads, script and prim limits etc.

Careful tomorrow they may come out with a "minibususiness" SIM 3700 prims limited scripts 30 avitars $150 tier. and HS SIMS will become 1875 prims limited scripts 20 avatars $125 tier. OS SIMS 750 limited scripts 5 avatars $75 tier. Because thats what all this in the forums has come to less for more. It's like we get punished for being passionate

Thats really all I have to say

I use SL to do the same thing as I do in RL...Own and operate a business to earn maximum returns on my investments and reap the highest amount of profit I am able to achieve. Many have said that is so very wrong to do, but I have yet to find anyone willing to sell a RL house or car to a lower bidder simply because it is a nice thing to do.

From that perspective, I can empathize with LL's decision to raise the prices. I don't agree with the severity, nor do I agree with the reasoning. However, we all must remember, its their business. They can pump it up or run it into the ground. Their choice, their fault, their success.

The problem that makes this so difficult is the nature of the world. It is not a game, it is where many of us LIVE our Real Lives. We date, have sex, have babies, get divorced, etc. Linden has further complicated our relationship with SL by referring to themselves more like a government than a for-profit enterprise. We have a Governor. (I didn't vote for him.) We have Public Works projects. (I didn't buy any municipal bonds to support them.)

Given that we are living in what we are led to believe is a municipality, we feel like these decisions must be driven by some moral imperative or made for the greater good of the people. We must ALL change our thinking because at the end of the day, LL is in business to do one thing, Maximize Profit for its shareholders.

Until we are able to understand this and remove our emotions from this 'game', LL will continue to manipulate us as they see fit. Yes. I said manipulate. Consumers are manipulated all the time, anyone fueling a fuel tank will agree. Emotions keep us as 5 year olds and business will keep you as an adult.

What we as a people need to do is to remove the impetus by which we are manipulated. Linden Labs KNOWS we are addicted to this for many reasons, good and bad. We all have threatened to leave the game over this and other LL decisions, but we never stay away long. They know this.

I'm not advocating we all leave SL, or stop spending money, or any other form of protest. I am simply saying fight fire with fire. If LL is going to be dry and all-business about it, then we need to as well. That change, that wind of reason and logic will wake them up about what they are dealing with.

Until we grow up about our attachment to the game and about what we demand as consumers, LL will continue to treat us as children.

Please don't have anger with me for this post. I won't pick sides. I am NOT happy or in agreeance, I just urge us to take a moment and think about what LL has done and about how our behaviour and posts need to be to really show them what we want them to do.

Remember: The more we vent and fight amongst each other, the less attention they will pay to us.

I am out of SL having closed all of my sims so I can speak without repercussions from the Linden gods.

All of this BS about 'intended use' is just that, BS. Usage can only be measured by real-world metrics like avatar load, script load and object/prim load on the server. To say that some combination is an acceptable defined use and the other is not (a avatar in a boat vs. a avatar in a house) is absurd and arbitrary.

If the OS sims were never intended to be used as habitable spaces, then the prims on those sims should NEVER have been increased. The argument at that time was that they were effectively 1/4 sims so should have 1/4 of the prims. If they are 1/4 sims, then limit the avatar loads to 10 (40 for 4 OSS on a CPU). Also limit the number of active scripts on ALL sims with OSS getting 1/4 of that number.

I understand you would still have a fundamental problem equally distributing the script load across 4 sims that share a common CPU, but that is a flaw in your product design. Customers should not be held accountable for your defects.

Why not put all the OSS's on individual CPUs, something with less capability than your current Class V hardware that would only need to support the requirements of an OSS?

Oh, cost. Yeah, maybe you should have thought this through a little better before giving into to the dollar signs you saw floating in front of your faces.

I certainly hope none of your remaining customers fall for this.

to those who have just attacked me and then tried to report me to Katt for being "abusive":

Anyone who wants to throw out more personal attacks at me or ruffle their feathers in my direction, im really not phased by you - and it just looks bad on you, so save it. Im sorry if you cant take the hard truth that i am trying to express which is, people who are renting openspaces shouldnt have been renting them. my point is that its been clear ALWAYS. im not spreading rumors, im telling you the truth.

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/21/information-about-openspaces-void-regions/
says:

"It is therefore important to understand what these regions are; they are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events. As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine, but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way."- Jack Linden, sept 21, 2006


whoever has broken this rule or taken advantage of the situation HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THIS PROBLEM, and if your prices go up, i have no sympathy for you. If LL has allowed people to take advantage then LL HAS CONTRIBUTED TOO. and i really dont like this LL changing of the game. I do hope that people continue to voice their opinions about this issue either with MATURE messages, or with their pocketbooks.

LL has mismanaged, but some openspace owners have also mismanaged. so dont blame me! why someone needs to send personal attacks my way, and im not even a landowner, is beyond me! im not spreading rumors, im telling you the truth. Truth i think is badly needed around here.

sl seems to be reflecting rl in a way. in rl we have predatory lenders and those people are losing their homes. so if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Hi Katt! hugs!

/me squeezes in too.

i just said, openspace rental HOMES are illegal. i didnt say renting out openspace was illegal.

Jack obviously did NOT get the point of that post. That conversation between Zb and Dee happened right AFTER they upped the prim counts and lowered the prices.

It was based on THAT conversation that many estate owners decided to invest thier time and money in the OS product.

Now several months later LL says, oh well we didnt mean that, they were never ment for habitation, blah blah blah.

Its all BS, plain and simple BS.

Once I saw Jimi Page, guitarist of Led Zeppelin, using a fiddlestick or violine bow, working his Gibson Les Paul guitar passionately. As far as I know, he was under no fire from the creator of the fiddlestick, nor by Gibson, while being creative in usage of both instruments.

We need clarification. many open space sims are used as ocean for surfing. like many in this position i want as much ocean as possible. I would say only 10% of my sim is land and there is only one small building there.

My concern is therefore not a prim limit but what you mean by script limit. If i will not be able to run my surf wave and have 5 or ten friends over to surf with me than the sim is useless.

I need to know if this qualifies as low use. If it does not then the low use is set at a pathetic level. Again, rating such use at the heavier rate would make it useless to me.

In addition I would be compelled to give up the full sim islands contiguous to the open space sim that I rent. I currently have surfing vendor businesses there and they need to be contiguous to a working surfing area or they are useless.

Please clarify what script limits means before I waste any time or money trying to keep a nice place going. I believe I am in compliance with the original intention. If the script limit means I am not then 3 open space sims and a quarter of a full sim will lose all value to me.

I am sure I am far from alone in needing to know this. I predict that if the limited use I have cited is not acceptable then a lot of land will be on the market. In addition, commerce will decrease as many stores will close and L$ value will deflate rapidly. like RL it is about location location location. If the location gets loses its value to me because of this decision I do not believe I will be alone.

This is likely to be bigger than the decision to disallow gambling if the script limits leave a person with a basically non functional open water space.

Good luck, i hope you do not ruin Sl for me and my friends.

No place did it ever say in any documentation anyplace you could not rent out openspace sims for homes either. They used recomendations not set limits, the term Light use, they used not recomended and will not be supported if's .. but no where did they say . "You must not rent spaces on openspaces for clubs venders or any form of homes"... that is a conversation that never happened. conversations that did however happen where ones that said you could in fact build small homes and buildings.

Your alligations of the legality of renting out a house on a openspace sim as being "illegal" is fictitious at best. If it had been "illegal" there would be bans not price increases...

The best solution is to return to selling the existing OSS product in groups of 4. Keep all 4 on the same CPU so the estate owner can control lag on any one OSS by controlling the load being generated by any other OSS within that group. It becomes the estate owner's problem to manage just like they manage lag on their normal sims. They can define the OSS's acceptable 'usage' balancing the lag with how individual avatars may be wanting to use the OSS.

Existing single OSS owners will need to either purchase more OSS to complete a group of four on the same server, or transition to a 'shared server' OSS with fewer scripts/prims/avatars to prevent abuse by any single OSS.