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Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden |
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Hiawatha Kapelusz
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 95
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11-06-2008 15:28
There is a whole lot of ninja editing/moderating happening here. Just thought I would point that out.  I think if people felt they were being listened to and a few answers put in here and there, people would not get so upset, and Maybe ...that would lessen the need for edited posts ... .... Maybe ... I said |
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Bella Posaner
Just say it how it is FFS
Join date: 8 May 2008
Posts: 615
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11-06-2008 15:31
What really pisses me off, is that the performance of SL is shocking at the moment, rubber banding really badly, crashing, lag is the worst its been since I have been in SL (which is not that long).
And the greedy lindens want us to pay MORE.........they have to be kidding! |
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Hiawatha Kapelusz
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 95
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11-06-2008 15:36
What really pisses me off, is that the performance of SL is shocking at the moment, rubber banding really badly, crashing, lag is the worst its been since I have been in SL (which is not that long). And the greedy lindens want us to pay MORE.........they have to be kidding! I agree .. I went to have a look at boats for sale and rent yesterday, and the lag was so bad everywhere I went, I was unable to move ... so that put me off the boating side of things. |
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Wynochee LeShelle
Polykontexturalist
Join date: 3 Feb 2007
Posts: 658
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11-06-2008 15:37
In Communism things will be first nationalised and then ruined.
In Capitalism things will be first ruined and then nationalised. We are at phase #2. Capitalism made a mistake. Community is asked to pay. No matter if we pay the mess the investment bankers made worldwide, or the mess the Lab made with the open space idea. Principe is always the same. |
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Pantaiputih Korobase
Registered User
Join date: 8 Apr 2007
Posts: 41
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This thread is called talk with M and Jack Linden
11-06-2008 15:42
So the blog started: QUOTE: M Linden here. Many thanks to everyone who responded constructively with their concerns and suggestions about our Openspaces announcement. We’ve listened carefully and your feedback has led to some amendments to our original plan QUOTE end
The blog refers to the thread which is called 'talk with M and Jack Linden'. As far as I followed the posts here, there is not much of a talk with M and Jack or did I not get the point? Again, this is (besides the totally wrong economic decision), an absolute communication desaster of LL and again an example of what I call 'Linden Speech' having George Orwell in mind. Best regards, 75% out, Pantaiputih |
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Toryn Zapatero
Mixtape Islands
Join date: 8 Oct 2008
Posts: 22
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Mark the tape...........
11-06-2008 15:51
M Linden doesn't make it past 12 months with LL. Unfortunately, we pay the price for inept leadership but poor leaders rarely last long (Unless they are elected, LOL).
Philip Rosedale was obviously enamored by Mr Kingdon's resume but I doubt he has proven his worth. The problem is that Philip was/is a visionary and they are not always the best to choose the right leaders. I only wonder if he has the fortitude to correct his mistake and not see his vision go down the toilet. M Kingdon is ultimately responsible for not only the decisions made here but the poor communication. It's obvious he lacks the skills to lead a boy scout troop much less a company. |
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Bella Posaner
Just say it how it is FFS
Join date: 8 May 2008
Posts: 615
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11-06-2008 15:52
haha I was going to say almost the exact same thing
"talk with M and Jack Linden" What a complete joke They keep proving themselves over and over again. Hey guys, actions speak louder than words. The only actions we can count on from these people are the increases in the price of land! |
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Dianne Davies
Whispering Pines Estates
Join date: 1 Oct 2007
Posts: 168
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Cage
11-06-2008 15:52
If you see this I am no longer able to access my account.
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AC Pfeffer
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 50
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Letter of Plea to M.Linden
11-06-2008 15:54
I'm sorry M.Linden, but your latest proposal is worse than the first announcement. Please go rework it and come back with something your customers can adapt to and afford.
This is pure unethical business practice. We're extremely shocked that anyone, let alone someone of your credentials, would come up with something like this and try choke your loyal customer's with it, and are afraid it speaks volumes about what you think of your customers. It will be even more-so once you implement it and the stench will never clear. There is still a chance to recover from this - please be human and do so. The only part you got right is introducing two models for OS ... but ones too small and restrictive, and they are both way to expensive. Openspace was always designed as a 'value product' allowing users to create less condensed content and more natural content. You are alienating that and turning it into a more expensive model than full regions. Again, if its about increasing the companies turnover to look good to the shareholders, then go back to one of the other options you had initially ... something along the lines of 5% grid-wide increase but 20% on OS's may be more acceptable. But please play fair, this is outright abusive business and is clearly discrimination against the less wealthy community who can't afford more expensive properties. We look forward to you applying your wisdom and good business acumen to come up with a better solution. On behalf of your loyal customer base _______________________________________ PS: If you can't extrapolate this cost across other regions as suggested, please consider something more affordable along the lines of a base OS at $50 tier, 975 prims, 15 AV's and some script limits, and a Homestead OS at $100 tier, 3750 prims and less capping. Both should allow rentals to allow owners to recover part of the tier cost, but obviously the resource capping will limit the rental capabilities. We understand this will mean less profits and bonuses for shareholders, but we are sure you will understand the importance of a thriving SL Island community. |
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Alisha Matova
Too Old; Do Not Want!
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 583
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11-06-2008 15:55
Not such an "open" open forum i would guess then  I did not mean to imply this forum is being over-moderated by LL. When I said ninja edit it meant self moderation/editing. |
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Phil Priestman
Registered User
Join date: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 13
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11-06-2008 15:57
I think I owe Jack an apology. I was reading some of my old note card logs and found one where he was a key member in helping resolve a sim issue I was involved with and did a good job with it.
I think Jack is stuck in the middle of a massive amount of poor decisions created by M and the rest of the upper management cronies in their greed to get rich no matter what the cost and will probably end up being the scapegoat like Corey was. :/ |
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Paracelsus Schonberg
Registered User
Join date: 11 May 2008
Posts: 375
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Why feel sorry for Jack?
11-06-2008 16:05
I think I owe Jack an apology. I was reading some of my old note card logs and found one where he was a key member in helping resolve a sim issue I was involved with and did a good job with it. I think Jack is stuck in the middle of a massive amount of poor decisions created by M and the rest of the upper management cronies in their greed to get rich no matter what the cost and will probably end up being the scapegoat like Corey was. :/ As long as he tows the LL line Jack is part of the problem. He offers no real solutions, no compromises, and has demonstrated that he is not interested in dialogue with us, the consumers. If he is really an ethical, caring person, he would either stop the LL nonsense or he would resign and work for a company that does care about people. He is doing neither, and so continues to be a source of frustration for many us. |
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Coughran Mayo
Registered User
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
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Citizen's Council?
11-06-2008 16:06
M Linden notes (correctly) that "1:1 conversations are difficult and the forums are inadequate for full dialog. Office hours come up short, too. "
So it is time for a citizen's council to be formed. How about four members each from five categories: Sim Owners, Business Owners, Rental Property Owners, Specialty Areas (Furries, Themed Sims, etc.) and "at large"? Twenty representatives who meet once a month. Staggered Terms of service to allow for circulation and participation. Open meetings (i.e. all dialogue posted for all residents to read) We could call it "bonehead protection". Start with this issue. Suspend any changes to the Void/Open Sim pricing until the council has a chance to advise. Oh, and saying "we're sorry we fired before aiming" wouldn't hurt either, no matter what comes next. Why do people have such a hard time saying "we made a mistake"? Vapid double-talk and excuses presented after the fact are not signs of good leadership. |
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Disciples Noel
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 20
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Reply
11-06-2008 16:08
Sorry, but I am not satisfied with Linden's "spin" on the problem or their response to it:
1. They sold open-space sims for $175 not counting tier. They sell full-prim sims for $705 not counting tier. Open-space sims were approximately 1/4 the cost of full-prim sims. 2. Open-space sims were allowed 3750 prims. Full-prim sims have 15000 prims. Open-space sims were allowed exactly 1/4 the prims of full-prim sims. 3. The tier for open-space sims is $75/month. The tier for full-prim sims is $295/month. The tier for open-space sims is a bit more than 1/4 the tier for full-prim sims. 4. The initial price and tier price for open-space sims is proportioned correctly on a price/prim basis. 5. In other words, we paid fully for 3750 prims per open-space sim. We had every right to use 3750 prims. 6. We did not abuse prims and usage by using what we paid for. 7. It seems Linden expected us to give them money and not use what we paid for. Those are the facts. |
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Leal Choche
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2007
Posts: 10
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Clarification Requested - Existing OS -> Homestead conversion options?
11-06-2008 16:12
OK - this is all about asking for some clarity on the subject of current Openspace sims being used for the 'new' designated region type called 'Homesteads' come January 1, 2009.
-------------------------------------- Staring with the Knowledge Base article and the chart given at this link.... https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=5650 ....explains a lot EXCEPT - all spaces under consideration in this conversation/forum/M Linden Postings are in regards to the CURRENT Openspaces sims that have 3750 prim capacity (un-audited by LL at this time) If these sims are to continue to be used after Jan 1, 2009 with the 3750 prim capacity, the name for that use is "Homesteads" [Not a bad designation name by the way] UNCLEAR - Owners have already paid $250 for those OS sims,,,,it is unclear how they can be "converted" to a Homestead sim on Jan 1, 2009. CLEAR - to purchase a new Homestead - when one was never owned before, then the fee is US$375. Please clarify - does a OS owner now (who of course also owns a regular sim - this reply is NOT about sub-renters from primary owners) who already paid $250USD for the OS have to pay an ADDITIONAL $375USD on Jan 1 to have/use that sim for Homestead use. The person/people who write your instrucitons should really really get a handle on being specific with English. This is not a criticism, but an observation. The only mention of those who now have Openspaces and want to use them as a Homestead is this sentence in the Knopwledge Base article: https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=5650 *****"You may keep your Region in its current form, but Homesteads will have specific limits."*****[quote from Knowledge Base] That sentence does not say very clearly - although one MIGHT imply it does - that it needs to be "converted" to a Homestead type. the next quote from that KB also could use some structural help: ***** ***"How are Homestead Regions and Openspaces different? Openspaces are intended for very low-impact use only. They share 4 CPUs per server, and support a limited number of objects. When the new changes go into place, they will support 750 prims and only 10 avatars, and will likely place limits on scripts running in the Region, as well as being unable to use event postings and classifieds. Homestead regions are for quiet residential or light commercial use. They are not intended for events, malls, or other high-impact uses. When new changes go into place, they will support 3750 prims and 20 avatars, and will likely also have script limits. "***** OBSERVATION -> The first paragraph talks about Openspaces and discusses the number of CPU used/shared. The second paragraph talks about Homesteads but makes no mention of CPU usage. CRITICISM -> Better information structure here is to provide the same type of information in each paragraph with the same type of information. So the second paragraph concerning Homestead sims omits references to CPU usage where in fact to provide consistent information to the read it SHOULD also mention CPU usage - even it that mention may only be that it is to be determined. This post is predicated on the observation that there is no clear statement in the Knowledge Base article written by LL about changing current Openspace sim to Homestead. It would seem, after 175,000 views of the previous thread on Openspace sims that the language of the Knowledge Base article would be a bit clearer. - -following is off topic but an observation/comment due to the subject at hand anyway - - PS - An interesting observation is the mention by M Linden ("One thing I learned and others were reminded about in this process is that we have a very connected, " that only in the fervour of the discussion of the change in policy of Openspace sims did he "learn" about the SL community connection.....I for one am glad he 'got' that observation..but the 'observation' at this end of his comment is why it took such a brouhaha with Residents setting themselves on fire and such for him to realize that. Glad he did....perhaps that may color some of his decisions in the future. After all, he was quoted in the (on line) trade press as the original policy changes were not going to be changed.....something that apparently was not true in the end. |
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Gilster Hax
Registered User
Join date: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 15
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11-06-2008 16:13
As has been stated, the bare facts of this action appear to be a typical "bait and switch" con game. The Federal Trade Commission has already been contacted (and agree), of course they can not do anything until the action becomes a fact. My advice, is to save your breath. As you can see from the proposed "solution" that nothing is, or will change. Hold on to your land, wait until the price goes up, then contact the FTC and the Better Business Buero. Let LL try to explain to a judge why......... Just my two cents, but personally I think it is worth a couple hundred US$ in tier just to see LL brought to reason. And you never know.....after that debicle in California about gambling.......... And then we ALL leave to let them deal with the finacial circumstances without our money to pay for it. . |
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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11-06-2008 16:16
http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/21/information-about-openspaces-void-regions/ says: "It is therefore important to understand what these regions are; they are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events. As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine, but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way."- Jack Linden, sept 21, 2006 whoever has broken this rule or taken advantage of the situation HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THIS PROBLEM, and if your prices go up, i have no sympathy for you. The point that you are missing is that representatives of Linden Lab have repeatedly told people over the last year that the uses they were putting Openspaces to were acceptable. For Linden Lab to now pretend none of those conversations ever happened is disingenuous to say the least. Especially when they further encouraged such use by doubling the prim count, unbundling Openspaces from groups of four, and allowing Openspaces to be disconnected from existing private estates. Furthermore--even the knowledge base article that you are so fond of quoting said "but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way." It did not say: don't use them this way. It said, if you use them this way, you are on your own. We will not support it. But the problem is not that Linden Lab said one thing in the knowledge base--the problem is Linden Lab told its customers both explicitly and tacitly to ignore that knowledge base article. _____________________
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Gigs Taggart
The Invisible Hand
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 406
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11-06-2008 16:19
We could call it "bonehead protection". Start with this issue. Suspend any changes to the Void/Open Sim pricing until the council has a chance to advise. There already is a council of residents from various parts of SL for LL to run ideas past before going public with them. It's called SL Views. The general goings-on of SL Views are not public. I can tell you this much though, Linden Lab didn't run this past Views before going forward with it. _____________________
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Baal Infinity
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 33
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11-06-2008 16:20
OK - this is all about asking for some clarity on the subject of current Openspace sims being used for the 'new' designated region type called 'Homesteads' come January 1, 2009. UNCLEAR - Owners have already paid $250 for those OS sims,,,,it is unclear how they can be "converted" to a Homestead sim on Jan 1, 2009. CLEAR - to purchase a new Homestead - when one was never owned before, then the fee is US$375. Please clarify - does a OS owner now (who of course also owns a regular sim - this reply is NOT about sub-renters from primary owners) who already paid $250USD for the OS have to pay an ADDITIONAL $375USD on Jan 1 to have/use that sim for Homestead use. . From the Announcement and the Knowledge base The answer seems to be: If you have an openspace sim, it will automatically be converted to a Homestead sim on January 1st unless you specifically opt out and bring the region into compliance with the new usage designation (To opt out you must file a support ticket as per the instructions in the knowledge base) The automatic change over from an Openspace to a Homestead Sim will most likely be almost completely transparent and you would not have to make any immediate changes to your region (the 20 AV limit will most likely be implemented server side) Prims stay the same and all your stuff stays the same. At a later time script time limits will be announced and you would need to bring your script usage into compliance with the guidelines (as this will also probably be implemented server side so if you don't bring your scripts into compliance random scripts will probably be disabled till the allowed script time is reached) There is no other price charge other than the increase in tiers for existng Openspace Sims being changed to Homestead Sims. In effect this means the value of your land will increase as all new homestead sims will be charged a $375 setup fee so the land you paid $250 to setup is now worth $375. So again if you have an existing Openspace Sim and it gets converted to a Homestead Sim there is NO additional charges except the listed increases in tier cost. |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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11-06-2008 16:22
Reading all this--and God help me, I've read every single post in this and the original feedback thread--I'm pretty much at a loss as to where we can best focus energies to reduce the impact of the change LL seems to think it needs to make. Put another way, to make progress here, I think there needs to be a negotiating position that might get Linden agreement, but I can't figure out what that could be.
As I understood a comment Jack made at his office hour today, I believe there may be some "wiggle room" around the prim limits--but I don't think they want to make any concessions until they have more data to confirm that the newly-announced limits are more strict than they need to be for whatever objectives they're measuring. So, maybe that could be on the table in future, but it seems unlikely to work now. One off-the-wall idea: What if, come July '09, the US$125/mo price applied only to standalone Homesteads, owned by residents without other Estate holdings, but the US$95 price held for Estate owners with one or more full-primmed sims? I can pretty much convince myself that this is win-win-win: Residents who always wanted their very own lower-density sim can get one for a price, Estate owners are guaranteed a $30/mo "spread" from which to extract margin, and LL gets more total land under ownership (I think)--albeit at a slightly reduced average monthly fee per sim. Of course I have no hint that LL would go for such an arrangement. But I'm also not sure if I've just totally missed the boat as to what would help residents at this point. |
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Gigs Taggart
The Invisible Hand
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 406
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11-06-2008 16:24
Of course I have no hint that LL would go for such an arrangement. But I'm also not sure if I've just totally missed the boat as to what would help residents at this point. You've totally missed the boat with what LL wants to "ban". LL wants to get rid of estate owners renting out openspaces, the exact thing your provision would allow. I'm sure it's because it competes with their mainland too hard. They never cared about resource contention stuff before, allowing camping on the mainland for instance. _____________________
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Argos Hawks
Eclectically Esoteric
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,037
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11-06-2008 16:24
As regards Zeebster's quoted chat, I just wanted to clarify that the product we are now calling Openspaces, with its limitations on agents and prims, is *not* for living in. It is very definitely for open areas used for scenery as per the recent knowledgebase article that M linked to in his blog post. If you have an Openspace now, and you're still not sure whether it classes as Openspace or Homestead after the announcement, please file a support ticket so that we can take a look. How can you possibly be this dumb? If you can't define it by way of a technical metric, stop talking about it. Two identical builds under 750 prims on two identical sims. If one of the sims only has one person that visits it, and that person thinks of it as home, you'll be charging them $125/month. If the other sim has several people that visit for hours on end, but none of them think of it as home, it's only going to cost $75/month. You need to explain the technical reason for this. _____________________
Step 1: Create virtual world
Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit |
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Katt Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 256
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11-06-2008 16:25
Does reporting ToS violations like posting chat logs help or is that just spam, Katt? /me points to the top of this page. It helps when you AR such things, it helps me find them quickly so I can evaluate if they do need to be moderated. |
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Leal Choche
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2007
Posts: 10
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Unclear Instructions for changeing existing Openspace to Homestead
11-06-2008 16:27
From the Announcement and the Knowledge base The answer seems to be: If you have an openspace sim, it will automatically be converted to a Homestead sim on January 1st unless you specifically opt out and bring the region into compliance with the new usage designation (To opt out you must file a support ticket as per the instructions in the knowledge base) There is no other price charge other than the increase in tiers for existng Openspace Sims being changed to Homestead Sims. In effect this means the value of your land will increase as all new homestead sims will be charged a $375 setup fee so the land you paid $250 to setup is now worth $375. So again if you have an existing Openspace Sim and it gets converted to a Homestead Sim there is NO additional charges except the listed increases in tier cost. Well - that comment is an inference to the Knowledge Base. I am pointing out that that 'infered' policy is not clearly articulated. I also tried to gently mention that by this point in the converstioan, they would have had clear(er) instructions...which they don't. ((Another observation is that perhaps the KB and M Linden letter are written by different people who are not exactly running things by in a line-by-line manner. Good corporate/business/community process should have done that...again, an observation.)) |
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Gigs Taggart
The Invisible Hand
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 406
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11-06-2008 16:29
Well - that comment is an inference to the Knowledge Base. I am pointing out that that 'infered' policy is not clearly articulated. It's because you aren't used to Linden Doublespeak. They have rewritten history and now what was an openspace is *already* a "homestead", and they created a new, more technically crippled thing which they are calling an "openspace". They won't become homesteads, they already are. The new thing is the "750 prim openspace". _____________________
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