Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Answers to Questions

Some variation of:

First reaction:

"OH NOES!" *runs around in circles, amok* "WHATEVER ARE WE GONNA DOOOS?!"

Final action:
1) Adult Content --> /Trash
2) Ursula Server Racks --> /Unplug

Actually, they'll be bought by Sanrio and everything will be turned into Hello Kittyland.

Don't forget the SL forums: where someone yells "fire" in a crowded forum, and 30 people yell back "Wrong Forum!".

First of all, thanks for posting a well-thought out post. It's good to see a shop owner posting his thoughts on the whole issue. I can see most of the points you make, but unfortunately I do have to disagree on some. I agree that SL is a place where one can do what interests him / her, within the applicable jurisdictional bounds. But you go on telling that the world view of people makes certain subjects societal instead of personal and continue naming sex one of those subjects. I can see where you are going, but personally I am afraid this is a slippery slope. Yes, sex is something people might be uncomfortable about, but the same goes for probably quite a lot of other subjects (I won't name any of the things that pop into my mind now, because that might distract from the issue at hand).



I take the above as a personal opinion and not the communis opinio, at least regarding the 'private, intimate'.



Saying and doing are indeed two separate things. The question though is why the efforts of LL should be aimed at making sure kiddos don't see adult content and not at keeping the kiddos out in the first place. If LL finds a way to keep kiddos out (and there won't be any 100% solution) the current situation in SL can be maintained. As far as I can see now, LL adresses the results of the problem, not the roots of it.



I disagree here. Yes, LL could have removed all adult content, but that would have been a shot in their own feet (dunno how many people work at LL, but I trust they don't share one single foot). So removing everything adult wouldn't have been a viable business solution. Implementing Age Verification as it was (and apparently is) is flawed in the sense that lots of people can indeed verify and lots can not. People with fake info succeed, many Europeans with real info fail. Then it comes to PIOF... I am glad they accept this (I am using it too, no way Aristotle will get my stuff) but - and it has been pointed out before - it's easy to commit fraud with it. And strangely enough some European CCs won't be accepted by LL as payment method.

The fact that LL apparently made an effort and that this might be as good as it gets is no reason just to implement it. I prefer no solution over a bad solution. Don't use something, and especially don't force people to use something, when it doesn't work.

And the fact that LL can't do anything right doesn't mean this not-working monstrosity is acceptable



Respect is something people have to earn, and that goes both ways. People telling me I can't do something just because they don't want to see it don't earn my respect. But that on a sidenote. I agree that we have to take into account different views on the world and that there is no reason to stuff something into people's faces when they don't want to see it. But the current situation isn't going to change that.

Apparently you can still see words on the naughty-list when you use search terms that give results with naughty bits in the description. There will continue to be adult vendors on mature land. People can still randomnly tp into a home with adult stuff. This won't change.

And now the segregation. The segregation we will see is that of a couple of store owners that will move to the new continent and don't have anything to fear except a decline in customers. The other part will be store owners and also individual parcels that don't qualify to move, but will be under constant fear that they might be ARed by those who don't want to see adult stuff.

There will be a segregation in the community: those who are verified and those who are - for whatever reason - not verified (and there are some very valid reasons for that). Some 2 years ago I frequented a nice club which only allowed people with PIOF. That meant half my friends list couldn't come. Many of them were around longer than me, but had good reasons not to trust LL with their credit card information.

Another segregation will be that those who got mature parcels but don't have mature content won't be able to move to the new adult continent. I can take myself as an example. I have gotten myself a nice plot on a mature estate. Not because at this moment I need to have a shop with adult content or a gigantic phallus on my plot, but because I want to keep the possibility open to do so at my discretion. That option will disappear for lots of people with the imminent changes, thus creating segregation within the community between those who can, and those who can't do with their parcels as they wish.

Competition will decline, because especially the creators depending on vendors in malls and the creators whose parcels won't be rated adult will experience a severe setback in advertisement possibilities because of the naughty list. And if they decide to move after a while, they will be faced with high land prices due to speculation.

And last of all there will be some kind of segregation between estates and mainland, because with a lot (?) of parcels becoming available land prices on mainland will plummet.



I agree wholeheartedly here. Everyone deserves a better SL. But you won't get a better SL with flawed policy changes. I work for a government and make policies for a living. If I would say to my superiors "this policy is severely flawed but we'll implement it and see how it develops" they would sack me right at that moment. The policy changes affect too many people to be implemented without knowing the consequences. And consequences it will have, for:

= adult businesses that can move
= adult businesses that can't move
= adult content creators only using vendors
= individual home owners
= people who - for whichever reason - don't or can't verify
= estate owners
= mainland owners
= etc.

Well... that will be virtually everyone, because as far as I understood, even conduct and groups will be liable to be ARed. I wonder when LL will start monitoring IM conversations



I don't think adult content creators or the people enjoying adult content are the troublemakers here. They do make a huge mistake by the strange way of implementing this unfinished policy.

In short: yes, I do see your points, but - based on my own experience - it's better to have no policy than bad or unfinished policy.

Thanks again for your post ^^

Aen

EDIT: and an afterthought... I think I could support LL in changes concerning adult orientated content if the policy would be integral, transparent and unbiased. In the end we all want a better SL experience. But I just don't see how the current way LL is taking will lead to something either integral, transparent or unbiased. That, after quite some thinking, is my main objection to this all. It fails to tick virtually every box in the 'how to create feasible and acceptable policy solutions' manual

They'll blow the whistle and say "Everybody. Out of the Pool!"

"Sorry folks, we tried. No more cartoon nasty anywhere. Here, have a t shirt, emblazoned with the Corporate Logo of your choice.

Argent has been asking, quite reasonably, about this issue for some time and you've selectively ignored him while answering far more trivial questions. I think this deserves a response.

You're right, but that still makes it no less "censorship", which others here are claiming it isn't.



I promise you, if a mall, or other business or organization operates under unfair or impractical principles, I will be happy to petition and/or boycott them over it. I already have done so for literally hundreds of businesses in my life; another one won't be anything new or different there.

We do, Mosley.

Good luck to you in navigating your business through this train wreck. :-/

Linden Labs HATES YOU!

it's your fault IBM kicked them out of bed. It's your fault you can make better shoes than Nike, it's your fault your avatar can't taste coca cola or buy copious amounts of junk food. How can they expect to attract the kind of hideous corporates they insist on offering their pert round buttocks to while you scummy degenerate "adults" are endorsing lifestyles choices that didn't show up in any marketing surveys. How dare you creep in under the radar with cultural memes like BDSM, can't you see the threat to the corrupt and morally (and financially) bankrupt world we are living in, how dare you create a freer alternative?

Blondin Linden: One of our drones in sector 7G used the word ass, Sir:

Cockhead Linden: were they refering to equestrian mammals?

Blondin Linden: err, no Sir

Cockhead Linden: Excellent! release the flying monkeys!

I just have to say that I just went to the Age verification Test Zone http://slurl.com/secondlife/Concinna/153/34/32 and it appears that now the the age verification is working for me. So someone at LL has fixed me!

Maybe that glitch/bug is fixed. That would be a big help to the process.

I feel better now (more grown up) and just wanted to share that

The problem is Argent, I don't think what you outline is humanly possible. That kind of per-user selectivity on what one sees and experiences would not only be a huge technical hurdle, but it would lead to such a disjointed world that it would be better if each person was simply placed into their own custom 'shard'. And I think that pretty much perverts the idea of Second Life (pardon the pun). But I certainly understand your viewpoint.

Well to be clear they aren't banning much of anything, simply placing a restriction on it, an important distinction.

And yes, I have long shared those concerns about the ultimate fate of our Intellectual Property. But I think LL knows full well they can't go there without incurring a lot of legal grief.

there goes THAT cyber-sexual fantasy.

There goes the Bond-Girl cyber-sexual fantasy.

Can you cite these numbers and where they came from? I agree there will always be some who fall into the cracks on either side, but I haven't seen anything to indicate these numbers will be large. By placing other methods of verifying other than Aristotle under the same umbrella, I think they do a good job of patching up the cracks.


The same arguments could be used for many things in life, like alcohol sales. It is and always has, and always will be a parent's ultimate responsibility to manage their child.


I think credit card companies are simply covering their legal arse, as is typical. LL has the right certainly to make that judement call as to whether or not they want to accept that as proof. They just can't sue the CC company if that proves false.


Can you give me a link, i'm not sure what you mean.


They admitted that PG regions just weren't very mainstream. Frankly I can see a day when they are probably phased out. But that's my own personal take.



You would have to be much more prickly to discourage me. I have a pretty thick skin (and some say a thick skull too )

I have been selling a beautiful ass on slx (xstreet whatever) for some time now, I was inspired to make it after seeing a performance of a midsummer nights dream. He has lovely floppy ears and fine chomping teeth.

A few days ago I received this stupid notice from the nazi party:
******************************************************
There was a problem with your item listing that required us to remove it from the Marketplace..

The specific problem was related to the following area: Adult Item.

The administrator added the following comment:

-------

Please flag this item as adult or remove the word 'ass' from this item listing.

-------

Your item will be automatically relisted in the Marketplace and Search index after you fix its listing.

-Item Name: My Pretty Ass!
**********************************************************

what a bunch of throbbing cock knockers these people are

ohhhhh nice! I love it.

Really evil and insidious.

I find evil sexy. Want to Linden later?

Yes, there are other things, and most of those are banned or regluated too.


Well I actually think if you surveyed 100 adults, 90% or greater would say having public sex is not something they want to do. But yes, this represents something that obviously opinions vary on.



There are two problems with this. First off, it's 100% impossible to do anything 100% well. There will always be kids lurking in SL, there is no way to guarantee they will all be kept out. The second thing is, it's not all about the kids. As I stated in my Essay, its more about respecting other Adults with differing moral belief systems and different tolerances for 'the unique'.



Certainly the financial aspect plays a part in their decision making. But it certainly didn't stop them from banning gambling which was a huge blow to the in-world economy. One could argue successfully that the Gambling Ban is different because it was driven by RL laws. However, Adult Content is no less a thorny legal issue.



All good points. But I think thigns will find their own level after a time. Change is not easy, believe me I'm very adverse to it. But We are like weeds, we'll find a way to grow anyway.

Yes, it affects everyone, whether they realize it or not. The better question is, will it really affect them negatively, or positively? I think it's far to early to answer that.



Thanks for your thoughts as well.

Blondin,

I can only assume you missed my question because of all the posts!

SO here goes again ...


-----------------------
Why do people who's description would mean they should be Adult rated have to change their description?


Why cant they just be moved to Adult land instead?

..and creating a gulag is easier/better how, exactly?

What Argent suggested IS technically feasible, and not really that hard to do, compared to some of the other chicanery they are attempting in the current plan.

As for the part about "such a disjointed world", well, if people could learn how to control their own problems and not make them other people's, we wouldn't have to worry about it in the first place, would we? The problem is that people WANT that. They WANT "selective vision". They don't want to see cartoon images of things they find taboo in RL, so much so that they would rather force LL to "get rid of them" than learn how to avoid them or simply deal with seeing them like every other "mature" adult in the world does.

They don't need to be out campaigning to change the world to suit them. They need to seek help to learn how to change themselves to suit the world.

First lesson:

Taking Offense - http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/01/the_offensiveness_of_taking_of.html

I thought residents might like to know just how unwilling LL is to work with the residents over the whole adult filtering and age verification thing.

in the new viewer (1.23) that is set to come out within the next few weeks and become mandatory for all SL users there is a way to limit access to either adult or adult and mature content, but no way to limit access to pg rated content.

in a feature request located at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12977 in less then three days over 15 users have voted in favor of adding such a feature with MANY reasons listed as to why it would be advantageous. NYA Linden has stated that it wont even be considered for this release if ever. that there was "no need for it" and that only a small number of users want access to adult material and so it was too much work.

This despite talking to many many developers even LL ones that stated it would be very easy and straightforward to implement.

The sheer mass of information here must be getting close to drowning the issue.

IN THE BEGINNING Lindens created our world and imagination only forgot we are global and what global imaginations could create, by then it was too late.

The fantastic platform that is SL brought forth a miriad of other potential uses beyond an adults playground however the SL that exists and the target 'millions' not here yet are mutually exclusive. It isn't just about kids..that is to placate the public face of SL...kids have a wealth of far more exciting computer games other than trying to check out what crazy av's get up to virtually plus i say AGAIN the computer equipment capable of adequately running SL is way beyond the typical kiddies machine (or average persons really!)

What should of been stopped....and is possibly one of the foremost things causing objections is real life depictions, images and movies of sex and violence. SL *is* VIRTUAL REALITY *NOT* REAL...an av cum shot has a comical aspect against the real thing...a degree of photorealism improves appearance of items no end however photos of real humans has opened the floodgates.

LL have stated they want business and education movers and shakers but having now rolled out the adult continent idea it will be VERY hard for them to backtrack and change their minds. I'm sure they never really considered even a FRACTION of the angles we are hitting them with on these pages.

The 2-4% was what they viewed as 'extreme' adult/violent however in some dark corridor 'extreme' fell off the page. What we are now seeing is virtually every business in SL being affected by description and content difficulties. Items deemed 'mature' for sale cannot be described accurately due to the pending adult word filters. Every parcel owner and renter will become paranoid over what is and isnt safe on land they bought in good faith as 'anything goes'.

Surely now the preferable idea of a PG/G zone...a 'NEW SL' must be easier than dealing with all the above issues. It wouldn't be losing face..it would be a realisation that it is the ONLY WAY a predictable experience can be achieved for this 'new money' well away from SL's core revenue providers. Pressing ahead will still not provide the experience the potential millions waiting to enter require, will drive some mainland adult undercover whilst creating the laggy red light ghetto that kids WILL do their utmost to try and enter to see what they are missing...plus of course generating overall chaos....

LL say they haven't set everything in stone yet but the mortar is quickly drying with little sign of an about face. We should not have to lie to stay on mainland nor lie to enter 'Ursula'..an empty home is there and waiting for big business and the educators..a blank canvas. LL you *know* it makes sense ??!!

So i read every single post in these here forums. I have posted quite a few of my own posts. I have laughed at a few, agreed with more than a few, gotten more than a tad bit ticked off at more than one person, met a few awesome folks, and basically, it all seems to sum up to this:

It doesn't matter if your FOR or AGAINST the changes coming up. The actual problem is...
LL has shown a TOTAL disregard for its customers. You may think this is only about adult content. That's this weeks issue. Whats next week... Furries? Gor? Faeries? Dragons?

Its not that they want to make changes. In my 5 years here (my original alt was born in 04) I have seen NUMEROUS changes. Its the fact that they show NO REGARD for the people most affected. The issue is the lack of consistency, the lack clear definition. Lack of positive reinforcement. We have Blondin...who is getting the brunt of this all to himself, since obviously we *smut supporters* are not good enough for any other Lindens to jump in and help him...trying.. and failing.

We, the people, and in that i include content creators of all kinds, adult or not, and the customers of SL... regardless of your status, want is to be treated fairly. We want LL to PAY ATTENTION.
Numerous posts in these past pages have outlined various really great strategies on how LL can restore customer confidence, and relations. There have been AMAZING ideas. A LOT. Very good posts FOR and AGAINST. and yet... all they do is continue to blow smoke up everyone's asses.

This, fellow Sl'ers is the heart of the problem. no matter your position on these changes. we all need to agree that the TREATMENT of The customers wants/wishes is the problem.

I agree that SL is NO place for Kids. Not at all. Not even Close. I respect the fact LL wants to keep them from accessing us, the adult content, of SL. But they need to find a better way to do it. Punishing me, and all the rest of us, cause some f-tard can't stop and pay attention to what Little Johnny is doing on the interweb, and see's virtual tits and ass is NOT my problem. I raised my kids. Its NOT MY JOB, nor is it LL's job, to raise yours.

The adults that stumble into content they don't like need to use ctrl+shift+H... and get out. plain and simple. BUT... When you TP into a place called....Johnnys House OF PrOn, WTH DO YOU EXPECT TO FIND? You TP to a place with Sex, or Escorts in the title.. what, your looking for ROSES? Get a grip. Go away. I don't tell you how to plant your garden, Practice your religion, or politics, or even your own deviant or mainstream sexual acts, what right do you have to tell me i can't be naked, neko, twirling a pole and offering pixel sex? I pay my land tier. My land is PLAINLY MARKED as an escort agency, and the land descriptions list what you can find. um.. HELLO? Seems like a NO BRAINER to me.

LL, you need to STOP, and pay attention to your customers. Your willing to risk HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of CURRENT accounts, in the hopes that more people will come to replace them... but as anyone in business knows... A happy customer tells one person how happy they are. a Disgruntled Customer tells everyone they see.

~Brie

Sure it is. Kelly Linden and others have agreed that there's no great technical difficulty with per-parcel visibility controls: the sim already has to track objects at a per-parcel level to handle parcel prim limits, object entry, ban lines, and so on. There's a huge difference between this and "shards", because people on the same parcel will see the same things in the same parcel and in all parcels around them that have the same rating level... and people who associate with each other will tend to choose the same rating level.

The biggest objection that I recall Kelly bringing up was to an earlier version of this "phantom zone" proposal in which avatars weren't visible at different access levels, and later proposals have specifically suggested some kind of avatar icon... we suggested a particle system, actually, over a year before "cloud ruth" showed up.

This would fragment SL far less than Voice has, especially given the appallingly broken way Voice use is completely hidden from non-voice users. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1317 No, sorry, after the way Voice was implemented the "fragmentation" argument doesn't pull any weight at all.