Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread

That's really quite funny, Blondin. There is a strip club dead center in San Francisco, on a very active street in downtown, just a short walk from one of the most famous cable car runs. And you know what? It's a vibrantly active, full service **whorehouse**, too. The cops are paid off, and the hookers openly proposition customers. I know people first-hand who have partaken of the for-hire offerings of the "girls" there. Right in plain sight, and it advertizes as a stripper club in all the common tourist handouts, right alongside the ads for Japanese steak restaurants and the pubs on Fisherman's Wharf.

ok thats it im offically camping out at Blondin Linden's place




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giggles

One of the key problems I think we face, is that we (humans, living in meatworld) tend to equate, or try to compare the virtual world (SL, in this case) to real life. It's a natural tendency, everyone does it to a greater or lesser degree and it has to do with things like our ability to defamiliarise, our levels of immersion, how we respond to fantasy and how we individually manage our emotions. Linden Lab knew this when they developed SL, we knew it when we signed up to be part of the experiment.

We even use the same terminology and language for things, which compounds the problem. We are invited to become 'Residents', our avatars have character, depth, they take shape, we build 'homes'. It all feels - even to the powers that manage the rules and 'standards' - like it's reality, when it's not, it's some sort of hybrid hyper-reality, in which meatworld humans are still on the first rung of the ladder of, evolutionary-wise.

However, as I see it, if Linden Lab want to develop their/our 'world' by responding to real life socio-fiscal-political pressure (e.g. the issue of adult content in SL) they really should make the decision, right now, between two clearly definable routes, either of which will make things a lot easier:


1. Linden Lab is god (lowercase G). It makes a decision and carries out its own policy change. Don't involve Residents, in fact remove your TAO and change your profile also, so that it's clearer. Stop inviting us to be Residents and just issue the edict. Don't expect Residents to take any responsibility or help in any way. You just have to take the risk and live with the effects of your decision.

2. Linden Lab wants its user base to take responsibility (to a greater or lesser degree) in shaping the future of SL, therefore it has to re-assess its position somewhat and grant some sort of 'rights' to its Residents. If LL feel this is the direction it would like to go (and as far as we thought, this was why many of us signed up to use SL in the first place), then it has to implement some form of democracy, even if flawed - a blog announcement and a forum just won't suffice (e.g. in this case, a clear, transparent poll for every Resident account in SL). Personally, I favour this approach, as I see this being a much more creative and exciting prospect for LL's future.


There can't really be any middle ground anymore, which has obviously been the case for a few years. Like a number of posters have said, users leaving may well be replaced by others, community instability might eventually settle - but your vision will have irrevocably changed.

If it already has, just close the thread and tell those that are left in SL when you're ready.

What do you mean by "overtly sexual"?

Is a bare-breasted woman "overtly sexual"? How about a bare-chested man? A child?
How about a naked human body?
How about a closeup of male genitals? Is it only overtly sexual if an erection is depicted?
Is two people, one atop the other, in a bed, but covered by a sheet, "overtly sexual?" Does it become more overtly sexual if they are moving in some specific way?
How steamy does a kiss have to be before it becomes "overtly sexual"? Does it matter if the kiss is between a man and a woman, or between two men, or two women? If so, why?
Is a poseball set with a floating text title of "Ride Her" overtly sexual? If so, why? Both "ride" and "her" are innocuous words.
Is a common pose titled "nadu" overtly sexual? It looks an awful lot like a yoga pose to me...but it means something entirely different to a submissive.
How about club names? Is there a club in SL named "Pussy Galore"? Is that overtly sexual? What if the owner says it was named after a heroine in a James Bond novel? Does that make a difference?

What do you mean by "overtly violent"?

You never told me whether my Collider Death toy was violent or not. It depicts a messy death by a fractured skull. But it's a joke item, a gag. Does its violent nature hinge on the intent of the users? The pool of blood? Something else?
Is my .45 pistol "overtly violent"? A couple of people I've shot with it would probably say "hell, yes"...but simply wearing it, even in SL, gets me a lot more respect and polite behavior than I might experience otherwise.
If I skydive without a parachute, all the way to the ground, is it "overtly violent"?
How about an animation of one avatar choking and slapping another to force her to perform oral sex? You and I might both agree this one is pretty far down toward the violent end of the scale...but what if both avatars consent (as they must), and either can stand up at any time to end the animation (as they can)? And what if we remember that neither one actually feels any pain? How violent is that, really?
What about a roasting spit over a fire? Is that overtly violent? Does it make a difference if we put it in a back yard, or in a dungeon? If so, why? Considering the same pose is in the thing in both places?

Where is the line, Blondin?

Again and again and again. THERE IS NO LINE. There is nothing that we all can point to and agree on, saying, "This is Adult. That is Mature".

Bad for the child avatar as well when they get AR'd for being there as its against the community standards. I thought most child avatars wouldn't been seen dead there or LL might ban them next.

What really suprises me that it has been over a week and we haven't recieved one concrete word about anything

I think we kind of threw them for a loop, particularly with the KB item 6010.

ah yes that fine peice of legislature!

If you are aware that filtering keywords is a solution that will NOT work, then WHY do you keep raising it as a part of this madness?

"Overtly Sexual"... A subjective and loaded term if ever I heard one. Personally, I don't object at all to almost ANY "overtly sexual" depictions, so as far as I am concerned, there is no reason AT ALL to move any of the "Adult Content". For all I care, someone in SL can stand there on their own property in a Mature parcel, out in the open, and cross-breed their chained Gorean love slave to their pet German Shephard. It's all voluntary, and it's all "Let's Pretend". If the slave doesn't want that treatment, they can log off. Even if they are using the "Restrained Life" client. No one is getting hurt or pregnant or otherwise being harmed.

But that isn't what you want to hear.

I do believe that is is common courtesy that if you have Mature land that is unfortunately adjacent to PG land, that you be descreet enough to put up a high hedge around your outdoor play area to block that line of sight, or that you keep those sexual activities indoors. Better yet, buy land that is NOT in easy line of sight from PG land, if you intend to do something most people would consider really raunchy. I think a new "Adult Continent" should not have restrictions on sex acts "in public". It would be a perfect place for someone who likes to "get it on under the stars". If you made that continent a VOLUNTARY place to go, I know a lot of people wo would seriously consider it.

On someone else's land, or in a public space, I'd expect behavior similar to in RL... I can walk though most areas of San Francisco dressed as a dominatrix, and as long as I don't start having sex with someone, there is no problem. Clothing, even suggestive clothing, is not in most cases "objectionable", provided you aren't walking around with aroused genitalia flopping in the breeze.

In SL we do have certain complications due to having more than just Humans to deal with. It's fairly simple to insist that minimum public dress code standards for Humans will cover genitalia, and maybe cover nipples on post-pubescent females. But what about a Furry or a Dragon? Should a furry male who is NOT aroused be required to wear clothes? Should his quad German Shepherd Dog be required to wear clothes? Should a dragon? My own answer is no. It's as silly as telling some matron in San Francisco that her female Standard Poodle has to wear at least a bikini when being walked in public.

As far as violence, much the same as above. Personally, I don't choose to set paw in a combat sim or a damage-enabled sim. I do not, at any time, consent by fait-accompli to be anyone's shooting gallery target. But if people want to gather in Jesse or some other designated combat sim and have an all out war, shooting everything that moves, that is fine with me.

On someone else's land? No weapon should be fired without consent of the land owner. Simple enough. No "violent attack", ranging from weapon fire to vampire bites to dragon's breath attacks, should be made on someone else without their consent in an area where such attacks are not accepted behavior for the sim or parcel.

I'd rather like an option to opt out of accidentally teleporting into or stepping into a damage-enabled destination. One that is NOT linked to "Adult Content". A drop-down dialog that would appear, if I had not checked the "Combat is fine with me" opt-in checkbox in my preferences, would tell me it couldn't TP me into that location or allow me to enter that parcel because the destination was damage-enabled. And maybe offering me a way to approve a one-time exception to that prohibition, so I could step into a shop, buy an item I wanted, and step back out. For example, The Omega Concern primarily sells weapons I would want nothing to do with. But they also sell one of my favorite teleporter systems...

Linden Lab has some mandate, which they have NOT clearly and concisely laid out in public, which defines this "only 2% to 4% of content" that Linden Lab would rate as Adult. Tell us what you are ACTUALLY trying to achieve here, and by what standards. Then we can tell you if it is too much, not enough, just right, or simply impossible.

LL should build a new grid just for people who are easily offended, or just open up the teen grid for them.

Mature = Adult - There's just no way around that.

No, there's no need for that. Linden Labs just needs to get off its ass and actively police the search function to ensure standards compliance. If they did that, there would be no need for all of this upheaval.

"What would you consider to be adult? I propose when a theme is built around content that is overtly sexual or violent in nature it crosses a line between mature and adult. What do you think? "

i think you're wrong.

That's the nice thing about opinions.

What would be really fair is to not force anyone to relocate at all
but since that seems to be off the table.

Allowing affected people a transition grace period of at least 3 months, in which they would have both the mainland mature parcel(s) and the new adult continent location completely tier free.

The reason I say three month is because that is the make or break period for most new venues. If a place is going to die off, its usually during the first three months of opening its doors. Since even established businesses are going to have to radically change the way they do business, I don't think its unreasonable to extend a grace period for them to do so.

First they move those that do ..

Than they move those that make the things that make them be able to did

Look at RL .. First laws against Killing Then Laws against Selling Guns ,Swords,Etc..

This is only the First step of Censorship..

MystressAnna Lovenkraft

Although according to Blondin (when someone directly asked it) child AVs can be on the adult continent as long as they are PIOF or age verified. A logical loop for LL to work out as it was pointed out that contravenes existing child avatar policies.

I consider such displays to be contributing to the degradation of women in general and to society's view of women as mere objects to be controlled.

Having said that, I do not wish to see Gorean roleplayers go away nor their lands buried deep in the heart of Pornodelphia. Having the freedom to express oneself means having to live with expressions I don't necessarily agree with.

When out in public, certain discretion should be exercised by all. That means not making out in the middle of a public square, not leading your concubines on leashes walking on all fours, not showing off your newly-acquired freenises, and so on. All I really ask is that we all show tolerance of expressions we may not agree with, and to not push such tolerances to the extreme.

I just heard about this change today. How could something like this work? Second Life is played internationally and if a verification was to take effect, how would something like that be possible if everyone around the world plays it. Different countries have different social security numbers, or none at all. Not many of the Second Life community actually want this change, it would lose a lot of users.

Also, a change like this would infringe our rights as citizens of Second Life, especially after as much as we invest in it.

I believe that the grids should stay separate, if a teen made an account on Second Life, that is their issue not ours. I do not want Linden Labs viewing personal data such as a SSN or any other type of personal information. Once it's on the internet it is for everyone to see.

This change will only cause panic and chaos amongst the Second Life citizens.

I only just got the message that this was happening... I joined SL, purchased L$ in SL, and interacted SL because of adult content.

This shouldn't happen. It really shouldn't. Why does it have to be like this? Why couldn't a real compromise be reached? Moving everything from one part to another?!

The people of Second Life should make the decision themselves what will happen. Couldn't you have at least given the users a survey about this like you usually do whenever we start SL up?

Just a thought. But how could a land swap be at all practical to manage? I mean would there need to be some sort of automated inworld script (maybe there is and I'm unaware of it). If I have an oddly shaped set of parcels which my current build follows the layout of (e.g. 8192sqm in a short of a T shape), how would I get that appropriate shape allocated? I don't understand how it might work... will everyone who is moved need a face-to-face Linden meet? Will we, somehow, be given an ability to 'purchase' (albeit it for free) said sqm of land on the new continent? Based on what criteria? Will we need to fill in a form? Do we get to see the land well in advance? What if we make a mistake? How will our tier limit limit be managed, so we don't go over? I'm a bit lost, we need much more detail. I think someone earlier suggested a sensible sounding approach/system, but I can't find it now.

Blondin, in all seriousness, you've made many valiant attempts on this thread and on the previous ones to try and define some mutually acceptable line to mark the boundary between merely "mature" and "adult". You've asked us our opinions and we've given them - we've even debated amongst ourselves over it to the point where we've started to get annoyed with each other because somebody else has a more free and easy attitude that we're comfortable with or a more restrictive one. As I said in my first post on this subject back on the previous set of threads every last one of us has at least one point of view on some subject that places us in a moral minority. All of us. Lindens included. That very diversity is why the G-team get so much flak - one persons AR is anothers must-have product. One persons porn is anothers art. By this very debate we've proved there is no clear line. As things stand you are heading squarely for a purely opinion-based system where the need to segregate any given piece of content is determined by the G-teams opinion - not of the content itself but of the intent of its owner in placing it where it is. They get enough bad press over the times they already have to do this, but under this proposed new system their jobs are going to suck even worse.

It is a sad fact that any such nebulous definition, and it cannot be defined more clearly thanks to the diversity of the SL population, inevitably casts a wider net than originally intended. Let us suppose that LL have collectively looked around and seen 2-4% of content that you feel has to segregated. Now you create a definition intended to cover that 2-4%. If that definition is broad enough that everyones interpretation of it would mark the 2-4% of content you originally looked at as "adult" it will have a wide enough border zone, a penumbra around the shadow, that content you did not intend to define as adult will receive ARs. Most of these will result in no further action by the G-team but some that fall in this questionable area will be judged "adult" and that precedent will expand the boundary and thus also expand the questionable zone. As an inevitable and unavoidable result of this process your definition of "adult" will expand over time, no matter how much LL collectively tries to prevent this.

That is why we are questioning the percentage so much, that is why we are very concerned over this move. If you've already thought of this, please let us know how you intend to address "definition creep" of this kind.

Flagging a sim as "Adult" does not mean every square inch of the sim is a 24x7 orgy in progress. There could still be plenty of places in an "Adult" sim that are kid-avatar-friendly.

The private island sim I live in will almost certainly be flagged as "Adult". But the outdoor area near my tea house and my koi pond, and the lawn outside my castle, and the beach I have down in one corner of the sim could easily be tagged as "Kid-Safe areas". And I am certainly not kicking my SL daughter or my youngest maid out of their bedrooms in the castle (equipped with strictly G-rated beds that have just one sleeping pose), just because *other* bedrooms in the castle have adult-type beds, for her parents and adult household members to play in.

Yes, what Da5id said ^^

Good point i missed that post there are just so many

Then you haven't been out much, I guess. Discreetly housed adult clubs can be found on a lot of main streets and downtown areas right next to more mainstream businesses.

If you have purchased L$ from LL or SLX then you are in LL eyes verified and can enter the adult world when it happens, have a read back over the threads