Lindens can we stop this nonsense soon please....

Google this

I have a Pensky (unsure of the spelling) to be exact and have used it for almost 3 years. Mine sends out the notice because I have seen the avie move to unrestricted area on our sim. Or for my invited guests they remind me I have the system on because they receive the notice. That is when I add them to the white list.

In my experience, I believe its also the person not paying attention to the warnings. Which I don't understand why when there is a blue box big as day on the monitor. I go horseback riding on mainland and I too find it challenging when I encounter a ban line. But I also respects one's preference to limit access on one's parcel AND I pay attention to the warning messages.

I agree about the airspace and I also agree with ones right to not have uninvited guest(s) wandering in their home. As mentioned previous post, someone may pull a chair and watch them. Again, personal preference. I don't. I do offer tours of my home because it is attractive. But, when I'm not there I don't want anyone inside my home. If I was there, I still don't want anyone wandering in my home.

In this situation there are no clear winners NOR losers in this debate. Both sides have valid points.

*comes back after a nights sleep, partially reads some of the thread*

Ban lines might not be as necessary (especially in my case) if:

1. LL would create a new prim flag, labeled "house."*

2. When the flag is enabled on a prim, an avatar cannot pass through it in any form. This includes sitting on another prim and "adjusting" it.

3. Objects enclosed on all six sides by flagged prims will not able to be interacted with from the outside.

4. One cannot cam into the enclosed space, unless one is the owner of said prims.


Even then, this probably wouldn't work, given that some people are rather paranoid about their privacy. Me, I'd take down the ban lines, because the reason I use the ban lines is to keep people from getting between my camera and my project.

*name of flag could be changed. I just went with house because that'd be the most common use for such a prim.

Problem with this concept is that it'd be pretty heavily used for griefing.

Probably I'm the only one who does this, but... ... sometimes I go for the better part of a session with a blue box in the corner of my screen, just because I want to neither accept nor decline a friendship request, and just silently log out later. In the meantime, if another blue box slides on top, I don't always notice. (That is indeed "not paying attention," of course.)

One other, possibly easy to implement, solution would be having a menu option to make ban lines visible out to your draw distance. If that was ever done then they would slide from my number one hate to the number two position occupied by security devices. At least now with the security devices I can TRY to get out of the way, instead of boom, splat, me on ground and vehicle continues merrily on it's way. 30 seconds would be a blessing and I wish everyone followed your example.

Locks are devices to keep honest people honest. Security doors serve the purpose of making it clear that it's not a public place.

I say Maggie is perfectly within her rights. Her post does not go nearly as far as Chris's, where he feels he should have the right to ban anyone to an infinite height. Fortunately, Chris is tilting at windmills: that's not how SL works. He can wish and moan all he wants. He can also put security orbs wherever he wants, lagging his sim to his heart's content.

IMHO, people should feel free to put a security orb covering a skybox, but it's rude to cover vast amounts beyond that. However, "rude" is not "illegal" or "immoral".

It's also rude to use a very low time limit on a security orb. Some say it's a TOS violation, but evidently LL doesn't enforce it if so. But ... except in very special cases, it's the sign of a serious asshole; someone who doesn't give much thought to the effects of their actions on others (even if it IS on their property: lots of property in SL is intended to be wandered through. If you have a clear "NO TRESPASSING" sign, then fine.)

It would be nice if there were a standard way for vehicle users to see where they're not wanted before bumping into it, but there isn't. I don't understand the need for those in flying vehicles to see them, if the ban line height is limited.

And if they didn't... well they do now

Because some like to leisurely fly closer to the ground sight seeing. Even flying slowly you still can not see ban lines until it is too late. It would also come in handy while sailing in narrow passages with landowners extending their ban lines out into the water. The same applies to ground vehicles. If you could see ban lines out to 256 meters then you could plot your way through a sim easily and without hassle.

As I mentioned, if implemented, it would be a menu option that you could turn on and off. Another option to hide them completely if your neighbor has them would also be nice. EDIT: We are half way there. VWR9765:

"Resolving as fixed internally. A new "View > Banlines" toggle has been added. No control over visible distance at this point."

Coming soon to a viewer near you.

/me hugs Qie!!! Thanks for admitting to that. Big ups to you!!!

Most people like me when first purchasing these security orbs are not focused on everyone else and how it affects them. You just thinking about your own little world and your own space. It was not until I started reading these types of threads that made me really consider other user's experience.

I thought ok what will it hurt to change it to 30 seconds. With respect to ban lines on my mainland property, well to address that I just made things operable under the group tag. So there is little they can do there.

As one that loves to horseback, I get somewhat irritable when I don't have time enough to move. So I understand both points of view.

Me too, Sable, or even more time. I put my orb up and down, I don't have it up all the time. My sim had a griefer problem for awhile (The SL Police, yeah, who were griefing a particular resident and we were all suffering from it.....) and I had it up, because I was AR'ing them, and just wasn't comfortable without it. After awhile, I take it down, when things are peaceful. I do add to my ban list if needed. Like you, after awhile of reading these posts, made me contemplate how others feel. I still don't like it that someone thinks they have 'rights' to something I am paying for. But I am willing to see another's side and ease my stance somewhat, on 'rights'. Oh, and, I don't use red ban lines, at all, ever, they're banned in my estate covenant, but orbs are allowed. To be honest, I rather enjoy seeing someone flying and floating over my sim. I have a meditation vehicle a friend made. It's slow and peaceful and I love floating overhead in it.

Speaking strictly for myself, I'm of two minds about the whole security issue. But then, I'm probably a bit of a special case. Being in the military, my wife and I are in two different states. SL is our way of spending time together, doing things together and yes, doing the pixel boom-boom together. So when I'm with her, a good security system IS a neccessity. I'm also not fond of having to go out of my way to type in a lot of names onto a ban list when I'm busy with her. Thus the security orb.

Since we got our fist house, the number of people that have tried to invade our houses is in the mid-40s. I'm not talking about newbies walking around our property in a confused manner. I'm talking about older avatars poofing onto our land and making a beeline directly for the front door as if they owned the place. To combat this I use the bounding box and a 10 second timer. I also check the security with an alt that is not on any of my allowed lists (poor lonely guy LOL). So I know for a fact that my security doesn't inconvienence anyone but people that are hellbound to disturb my personal privacy.

On the other hand, I hate banlines with a passion that's almost holy. I'm a second life sailor, and there's not much more annoying than to sail halfway around the grid just to get de-boated by some idiot's banlines sticking out into the canal that you're trying to negoitate.

Having said all that, a good reliable simple-to-use security system is a bit expensive. I personally consider it a cost of having property, but I realize a lot of people don't see it that way. Banlines are free and easy to use for most people. Since they don't care about anyone but themselves, why not use them?

There's multiple sides to any issue, and the wise person will try to look at all of them before laying down pronouncements from the Gods

Malachi

Incidentally, I caught the very end of Simon's office hour today (well, Andrew's, but Andrew is on vacation), and he said that server 1.26 may help some because it's supposed to parse objects coming into the sim more quickly, which I interpret to offer some hope of SVC-22 being less consistently fatal when crossing into a full parcel, on the premise that the sim may recognize the arriving stuff-with-avatar as a vehicle before it decides the stuff is too much for the parcel. In theory we could test this on Aditi or any of the main grid sims that have 1.26.2 in pilot now, or tomorrow on half the grid (if they continue the rollout--see http://status.secondlifegrid.net/2009/04/14/post590/).

I have seen that, a few times, where someone just 'arrives' on your land and makes a beeline for your door. My mystitool radar detects when someone arrives of course, and is in close proximity. I'll be in my bedroom with the windows blacked out and wonder why this unknown is rattling the door. It's a puzzle, that, as you say, not confused newbies. So yes a security orb works in those situations but I still wonder 'why' it happens. It once happened that I was alone in my bedroom, alone on the sim actually when someone arrived, several parcels away, and made a beeline for my house/door, passing up several other houses on the way. To this day I wonder why.

Analogies are only useful if they have certain proximity to near-identity. Causby is not a useful analogy because it is a weak and misleading one. There is no corresponding public interest in controlling and developing the virtual airways of SL that existed in controlling and developing the real life airways in Causby. The interests in Causby had to do with faciliation of commerce, travel, and national defense, not the ability to enjoy a recreational aerial tour and enjoy a pleasant view of the area from the sky. If the latter had been the only interest served Causby would have come to a much different conclusion because one of the most important impacts of Causby was to expand the definition of a taking to include a physical intrusion upon the property.

I guess it depends on your definition of significant. If I can set up ban lines and am allowed to inhibit access on the land and the skies above with security orbs that constitutes a significant amount of control to me.

OK Couple of questions

Malachi you said - 'To combat this I use the bounding box and a 10 second timer.'

What's a bounding box? Is it a security orb?

Second (And Third) A few people have mentioned that some banlines and orbs could be considered griefing and it's worth filing an AR report. So 2examples - I have conacted the owner of 2 adjacent 4096 sq mq plots. This person gives you 2 whole seconds to shift yourself or they do it for you. This means by the time you've read the warning, you're already out of there! If they come back (I'm not holding my breath) and say 'no' would this be a case for an AR report?

The next one is the parcel adjacent to mine. They have beautiful ban lines and you have to pay for access to the property (Yeah right!) I accidentally hit one of these in my balloon and found myself sitting on top of my house with the balloon in my inventory. I will obviously ask my neighbour if they will allow access, as being right in the corner of my parcel it can sometimes be difficult to navigate. Again if thye refuse, would this be considered griefing?

Any advice here would be helpful
From a frustrated balloonist

On the other hand, nobody in SL has chickens that freak out and run into the side of a barn when a plane flies over like Causby's chickens did, so there's no requirement that such an overriding public interest exists. Entertainment is the only compelling interest in SL, your land is entertainment, not your livelihood... therefore there need be nothing more compelling than entertainment to justify air travel.

You can't so much as erect a tent that will keep prying eyes out, and since there's nothing anyone can do on your land to damage anything on it, the only significant protection *for your property* that you could possibly gain from any security mechanism is keeping people from seeing what you have and what you do. And you don't get that unless you can afford the payment on a very nice REAL LIFE car for a private island.

We shouldn't be satisfied with ban lines and insecurity orbs, we should ALL be demanding real privacy from Linden Labs for less than US$300 a month.

First neighbor is ARable, Lindens might act on it and they might not. Second neighbor's actions are not ARable.

Google this

My bounding box orb basically allows me to set the limits of my secured area to about 1 meter outside the limits of my house. I also set the altitude to less then 100 meters as my houses tend to be tall . However, if a person remains a respectful distance away from what is obviously a private home, then they will have no problems from my security. And yes, I test this thouroughly with an alt before walking away from it. If more people went to the trouble I did, then security issues would vanish with the exception of those antisocial people that feel they should have access to everything of mine for absolutely no reason. LOL

However, as I've pointed out before, good orbs can be expensive and confusing. It took me quite a while to find the optimal setup for mine, and I've had to change them out several times for different brands. So until the Lindens figure SOMETHING out to give us proper privacy, These issues will remain. *shrugs*

Malachi

Pie,

I still say that you are way overreacting...and also reacting in ways that, as Argent points out, don't really address the problem.

I think that anyone who is admonished by LL for allowing access to their parcel, by ANYONE, has a really good case for claiming that:

1. Everyone on the grid is over 18. Hey, if LL can presume that, so can I. Therefore, they have no need to be "protected" from adult content, they are presumed to be competent to make their own choices.

2. The tools LL provides to put such protection in place don't work. Therefore, LL has no grounds to chastise YOU, since they have not provided adequate means for you to comply.

Take down the banlines, put the orbs back in inventory, un-Age-restrict your land, and enjoy life instead of living behind a (very porous) wall.

LL is not enforcing this edict...because they know it's not enforceable.

That only shows the analogy not only to be weak but question begging. The issue isn't whether there is a compelling reason to justify air travel for entertainment. The issue is whether entertainment from air travel is compelling enough reason to justify encroachment on someone else's SL land. If you are going to insist on using Causby as an analogy, the interest is only compelling if it serves the greater good of the entire SL community over the rights of a few.

Asserting only the conclusion of an argument doesn't make it so. There are many forms of entertainment, most which do not require residents to intrude over the land of a resident who doesn't want strangers there for whatever reason. When coupled with the fact that there are lots of places where one can travel by air without conflicting with such residents' desires it begs the question as to whether there is any compelling community interest being represented at all when it is only for the enjoyment of certain residents who want to go wherever they want regardless of a land owner's wishes versus the right to control access for all land owners in SL.

This thread has made me question my whole concept of land "ownership" in SL. I decided to continue renting out Karas trust parcels already occupied, but to sell my private parcel. I have moved into a Neko apartment at the rate of $L1 per week. I have ten prims (generous as they supply a bed with a cute sleep animation).

Actually it has given me a quite liberated feeling, like back when SL was new to me. Spent the early evening exploring some modern Japanese sims. Great shopping at cheap prices.

Jannae has gone on walkabout.

You could always navigate around... it's not like NO ENTRY isn't plastered all over that badboy...

Outside Lindenland, this is the norm. Check out Steelhead or Caledon.