As You Like It - Men Becoming Women

If it's irrelevant, then why be the sex you're not?

If you're gay, be gay. They have clubs on SL for gays or transgenders.

Why do anything? Why wear the colour blue? Why be a dragon or an elf? Why go skydiving? What possible *reason* should a person need other than they simply wish to and what right does anyone else have to tell them whether that is acceptable or not if it fits within the terms of the service? In my opinion there is far too many busybodies in SL (and RL for that matter) telling people what they should and should not be doing.

Oh and I disagree that SL is ALL fantasy. People are looking to connect on certain levels, many with the opposite sex for friendship, fun, caring, building a deep friendship.

There IS a real person behind an avatar so it's not all fantasy at all.

You misunderstand, I never made a statement about what you or anyone else want SL to be for you or that RL things can be brought here but two things you cannot escape are that:

a) It is based on a fantasy (you cannot even choose your real name if you want to)
b) Nothing of the SL world is real in any sense.

Bring your RL details here all you want but it is still a make believe world...hell it is even flat and I never heard of a RL place called Linden Village.

We're allowed to pretend?. Or are allowed to lie?

I can't go around claiming to be a billionaire and then say it's irrelevant. If it was irrelevant then I wouldn't claim it. It would be nothing more than a blatant lie in order to make people warm to me.

When you go see a play is everyone who is acting a liar too? Or in a movie? Or on stage performing a song? Is that who they really are?

It is acceptable to have fantasies and pretend in an appropriate place where it is *expected* it can and will occur. It is when it is not appropriate and/or expected that it is lying surely? Then it is harmful.

LL have created a world where we can be what and who we want to be, if that was not true then every rp sim, every non-human av would be banned and changing your sex would include a phone call to LL needing proof of RL sex change. These are the things that mark an appropriate place for fantasy and roleplay I think, so no it is not lying here of all places, it is roleplay and fantasy.

If anything it is the people who bring RL here who are disturbing the fantasy of others, however you find immersionists are generally much more accommodating in my experience.
Even the RL business interests are kept to private sims and even then their employees do not get their own RL names, only the bought corporate name.

In your own example in SL it would be perfectly OK to make a fantasy about you being a billionaire and living that lifestyle, people do it all the time or at least the latter part as the economy is such that a small amount of RL money allows us here to live like kings.

Role playing is fine, when one is upfront about it. And yes, SL can be about your fantasies, but not at somebody's expense. One needs to not be too selfish about THEIR fantasies while ignoring the fact there is a real person behind every avatar.

Again, there are transgender clubs on SL where you can be upfront about the fact that you are a male in a female avatar or vice versa.

I don't equate furries or animals to this opposite sex debate. I don't see any comparison at all. That just doesn't equate to what we are discussing about men in female avatars or in my case women in male avatars.

You seem to be advocating such people should segregate themselves away so that you don't have to deal with them.

This is faulty thinking, if the wider world does not appeal to you then create a community explicitly for people who think like you and segregate yourselves, this will achieve the same ends, do not expect the world to change for you.

On an aside, perhaps it is the thinking that you can have meaningful relationships here that is faulty thinking too? I mean it seems to bring a lot of trouble with it in fact, lets just do away with RL all together here perhaps too? Just playing devils advocate mind.

You're gonna need more than a billion.

Oh honey, that last quote is staggering on very thin ice over here. I hope you didn't intend it the way it came across, because how I read it, it had an additional rider of, "...that way they rest of us normal people don't have to concern ourselves with them."

1. "Turn on your mic; I want to make sure you're not a man pretending to be a woman before I talk to you or let you in my club."

2. "Turn on your mic; I want to make sure you're not a woman pretending to be a man before I talk to you or let you in my club."

3. "Turn on your webcam; I want to make sure you're not black and pretending to be white before I talk to you or let you in my club."

Spot the offensive statement. I circled 1, 2 and 3.

Not quite sure how you would verify if someone is gay or not. Voice is no guarantee, nor is webcam. We look and sound just like real, normal people, Avawyn. Just like you, in fact.

Gay people are quite normal. We love people just the same as straight people do. We just don't love the 'correct' gender, in some peoples' eyes. That's all. Doesn't mean we throw it in their faces, and it doesn't mean we should be segregated to our own little spaces so that 'normal' people don't have to look at us.

And as I was previewing my post, I spotted this further reply from you:Rider: "...but don't bring your nasty, icky, not-normal self anywhere near us, please."

I am so out of this thread.

No, I'm saying I see a tendency towards selfishness in those wishes to fulfill THEIR fantasies while ignoring the feelings of others. Gay couples are allowed and accepted at all the clubs I've been too. But for role playing as a female to date a heterosexual male or vice versa without being upfront... well to me that's being selfish.

And, as far as furries, I forgot to add.. they ARE being upfront about who they are so that's why that point doesn't work in this thread.

And, I am for whatever a club owner want's to do. If some say mic only females, that's their choice. It's their money.

We sure need more attach points... That way we can have stars, triangles, and such on our chests at all times (Self made, of course). This way the gender authorities know clearly what or who we are and keep us rounded up in our appropriate ghettos. (^_^)y

But would it be okay to roleplay being a billionaire with the intention of gaining friends because you hope they'll think you're a billionaire in RL?. Add to that the fact that the "billionaire" refuses to be open about their financial status in RL because they feel it may make their friends suddenly lose interest.

My view is that the billionare is a selfish inconsiderate dork that deserves a good thump in the head.

Yeah I am afraid the this conversation about segregation has gone too far for me to pursue it further and expect them to see another point of view. Just one parting thought, people never give *unreasonable* reasons for being intolerant of others and naturally project the problem as coming from them.
The fact remains though that the problem is with them and not the recipient of such intolerance.

Yeah that^

Well... That and all those crazy charities! (>_<

Have you seen "The Jerk"? I mean... Cat fighting? (O.o)

well have a nice day, sweetie

Heck I don't even know where to begin on where your analogy is flawed. Do you think that everyone in RL swaps financial information too? Should they? Many people lie about finances in RL too but so what? If they are happy with that fantasy and it does not affect you then why are you interested?
The point being here it is expected that fantasy will occur, so don't be all surprised and don't automatically beleive anyone who tells you something if it affects you and if it does not then don't worry about it.
Making up stuff about your finances even happens in RL when you are not expecting it but guess what you just have to deal with it too.
How many billionaires have you checked up on recently? On more close to home your neighbours, have you checked they really can afford that car and house or are they lying to you and the bank?

I think that, for the people who are using SL as a dating pool or as a platform for potential RL mates, then yeah, it might be a drag for you to get comfy with a male avi only to find out they don't have the right naughty bits to make your dreams come true.

If you're using it to roleplay or to live out a fantasy life or simply to build and learn in a virtual environment, gender is and should be completely irrelevant.

Since the ongoing common use of SL has always been determined by what the individual wants to get out of it - be that furries, dragons, or being a man in a woman's avi - it seems egocentric for one small group to claim that everyone else is doing it wrong just because it doesn't benefit them personally.

And sure, there are transgender clubs. A better answer would be to create an island named RL GENDERS and only grant entrance to the people who match your criteria and wants.

Rather than shoving people whom you don't agree with into a corner, make your own corner.

I actually was not referring to you, just the conversation about segregation with Avawyn, have a nice day yourself though, cupcakes

Yeah, because otherwise I would have believed that I was REALLY talking to 9-foot cheetah who walks upright wearing spectacles and a rubber thong.

It's not about intolerance regarding the point of view I am expressing in this thread... it's seem to be the other way around. I'm bringing up the point that SL isn't all about Y O U.

There is a real person behind every avatar. And I happen to have a transgender friend I see often on SL. This person is very liked and accepted everywhere!!!! And he is also deeply respected for his openness and honesty and a whole lot of fun to be around.

People are assuming intolerance, when my point is == I think selfishness is showing in some of these posts. It's all about YOUR fantasies, tolerance for Y O U... blah, blah, blah.

Sometimes the "fantasy" does effect other people and is designed to effect other people.

Yeah, and that takes away from making SL all about Y O U. Damn us! How could we?!

Things people do and say only affect you if you let them, the responsibility is still yours. You have mute and the ability to tp anywhere, the effect of the fantasy of others is very much diminished, unless of course you allow yourself to be suspecible to dramas, for that there is little cure (taking about the general "you" here and not you personally, I don't know anything about you and would not care to presume).