Our favorite little adfarmer takes aim at Linden Lab auction Sims

I have no idea about these avatar keys, but it seems as if they are just my unique ID in SL. However, from the the other thread that Colette referenced; I did try to learn more about this 16sqm 'need' for bots to scan my key in every mainland sim, by going to the link provided to the W-hat site.

I read the rules - "No Racism!"...

...I looked at the front page...

...A pic of an anime kiddie avie in full Heil Hitler salute wearing a tee plastered with a skull and cross-bone design so beloved of the Waffen-SS...

yah. Seem like a useful group of people to me. I trust them.

Sorry, Colette, I'm somehow not making myself clear--or maybe the situation is so crazy that only insane people can grasp it: LL has raised issues about scripters using LL's own web data, visible to the whole friggin' planet and crawled by everyone's favorite search engines--and from which residents can opt out, *but* they've *not* raised any concern about the w-hat data collected by in-world scanning for which opting-out is not possible. So I use the one they haven't fussed about, even though the other would be much better for actually preserving privacy.

The whole mess started, I think, when somebody saw their profile pic projected by a cute little script that uses that web data, and freaked out that it was publicly available. Well, maybe they should be disturbed that it's available on the web, but the script only displayed it because the person was right there--right where everybody could click on their silly profile anyway. And all they had to do was to disable web search on their profile and it would have gone away. But instead, the resulting privacy AR drove many scripters back to using the w-hat data.

So scripters used to use the AV key databases,

but stopped and used the web data after that was added,

but after a privacy complaint,

they went back to using the AV key database, which you cant opt out of.


And why doesnt LL provide the Av keys themselves?

If key collection was a major function of the 'legitimate' 16m plots, then LL making the keys generally available would do away with the need.


One thing not specifically mentioned in these threads I think:
There is a symbiotic relationship between the 'legitimate' 16m plot owners and the ad farmers.

One would hope that the ad farmers are the chickens and that the 'legitimate' plot owners are the eggs?

I do know that the Herbst buy in Hengill sim was at least either a 64m plot or two 16s.
Either way, a 16m was put on sale to Anybody for L$200 by this 'legitimate' plot owner who "never sells" their plots.



NB: I use the format 'legitimate' above purely to differentiate from the practice of land-extortion. It is not intended to imply a value judgement.

Yeah.. I had one of these guys and I agreed to swap his 16m^2 plot in the middle of my parcel with 32m^2 at one side. He then put half the 32 up for sale at L$ 200...

Of course, I bought it straight away.... if I hadn't spotted it I'm sure there would have been a spinning ad plot for sale for 10,000 pretty soon.

Stupid thing is, if he said he'd swap a 16 for a 16 if I paid an extra 200 I'd have said yes.... so I think it's true that these "legitimate" owners often don't give a sh*t about doing the right thing... whilst hiding behind their "I'm not an ad-farmer" disguise.

Of course not tarring all of them with the same brush... there appear to be some reputable ones around.. some in this thread even.

That's a superb question to which I don't know the answer. I mean, scripts can get those keys all sorts of ways for any avatars they encounter--if the avatar is in the same sim as the script, llName2Key is provided by LL, so it's not like keys are really private at all. I suppose there's a griefing potential: maybe somebody reads my forum posts, decides I'm a jerk, and starts up a script to offer me inventory every few seconds or something. Using Name2Key, the griefer wouldn't have to go stalking to find me or something created or owned by me to get my key. Of course, griefers generally just target any passerby instead of a particular avatar-by-name, but more "selective" abuse would be possible.

So it has a potential for abuse, especially in spamming, but hasn't been used for that purpose as far as people know.

Though I wonder. The grey goo style attacks where you are sent an item and if you rez it, it goes crazy. Do you think they manually just picked people to send items too?

I know people who have scripted items that use avatar keys to keep track of other's online status, without their knowing.

I figure that the ability to find an avatar on the grid using keys and networked scanners is definitely on the horizon.

I don't know why there is a need for such systems, however.

They should have, the same way they should have included more group info functionality in LSL, but they didn't. It wasn't out of some misplaced concern over what someone would do with your key, but it was simply an omission that they have yet to fill. it wouldn't be hard to code in a llRequestAgentData-like function which takes an avatar name and returns a the avatar's key. However, they are very much avoiding adding to LSL until after Mono is released and is working as good as possible.

Why they need to be scanning for it is not really relevant. I can scan for it everywhere I go. I could easily start dumping my scans into my off-world database and make my own. I already have a 1000+ user name-to-key database as it is, and I expect it to grow when I launch my store and mall. *shrug* Makes it easier for my customers to do business with me, as my store/mall systems are backended into that database.

Actually the "why" is pretty relevant.

When the discussion is whether 16M plots need to exist,

Its very relevant since those people are on the Pro 16M side.

Whether you *can* scan is separate from what *value* the scanning has.

What I'm seeing is an application of circular logic

--------------------------

*We want 16M plots so that we can complile a list of Av keys*

-What do you need the keys for?-

*Well We almost have everyone's keys already*

-What are they used for?-

*Not much, they can help us send gifts and thing*

-So they arent all that important?-

*Not really, but us having the information wont harm you*

-But why do you need it?-

*Because I can scan for it already anyhow.*

-For what?-

*minor Scripts and stuff - nothing all that useful*

-Is it valuable?-

*Sure, I guess.*

-If its so valuable why doesnt LL just provide a list instead.-

*They are too lazy. Besides we can make a network of 16M plots and make our own list.*

-What do you need the list for?-

*Not much.*

-Then why do it?-

*Because we can.*



---------------------

I hope you see how that doesnt seem like much of a justification to keep 16M plots around to me.

To be honest it has the same feel as a teenager asking to borrow the car but not really wanting to tell you where they want to go.

Sorry for the truncation of your posting Colette.

But, yes, I am feeling this also...

Deu. x

Presumably these things scan fairly regularly, thus adding some otherwise unnecessary network traffic and overhead to each sim.

Isn't there some rule about 'affecting sim performance adversely' in the community standards?

Additionally, there's something about covert monitoring in there... if it's reporting back who is in what region, presumably with a timestamp, isn't that some form of monitoring also?

Not that we necessarily need further reasons to get rid of them over and above "my permission is not given to be included, and there is no opt-out service that we can find" ... but perhaps it's another angle to get rid of these 16sqm menaces.

Oh, right, the actual topic of the thread! Sorry, I was mumbling on about why one might use name2key in the abstract, not about using 16m2 plots to collect the data. No, I can't imagine anybody thinking they need to procure a plot in every Mainland sim for the sole purpose of collecting name2key data. If you have the plots, it's an easy thing to do, but it's just not that important.

I haven't studied this systematically, but I did speculate somewhere that, to have commercial viability, such plots would likely have some role in the process of buying and selling land. They only exist on the Mainland, and yet there seems to be a strong desire to have them everywhere on the Mainland. What does the Mainland have that Islands don't? The only commercially significant answer I've come up with is: parcels for sale on which a profit might be made. (Scripts can't tell what parcels are for sale, but they can map the parcel boundaries in a sim with reasonable accuracy, and a 16m2 plot could be one safe place in a sim for a bot to land.)

I guess I don't really see these things being very viable as avatar trackers, considering that Mainland is only 20% of the grid landmass now, and plenty of avatars go for weeks without ever setting foot on a Mainland sim.

Then one even less reason to have them.

LOL

/tiptoes into thread

There are indeed legitamate reasons for owning a 16m parcel, that have nothing to do with griefing, adfarming, or anything nefarious.

Some people do use them to scan for avatars, to populate their Name2Key databases. Many in-world scripting functions require a key to operate - the most common one being llGiveInventory (used to send objects to people, such as with vendors). LL, in their infinite wisdom, has never provided us with a llName2Key function, so as a result, many scripters have to rely upon 3rd party name2key databases. W-Hat is one, Moopf is another. If they dont wish to depend upon somone else's database (which could contain errors), the only other option is to make your own.

(Note: 'Scanning for keys' isn't the only way to populate Name2Key databases. Another method is to have folks submit their name.cache files. When you roam around SL, the key of every avatar you've ever seen gets dumped into this special file on your local hard drive. Both W-Hat & Moopf accept name.cache submissions.)

Another reason, (which I personally do myself) is to use a 16m parcel to run scripts. Especially if you're running some sort of in-world server, redundancy is important because sims can go down. I use my 16m parcel to run a backup copy of my server scripts, so that if my home sim goes down - people can still receive Shelter notecards when they click our signs.

I've owned my single 16m parcel since early 2005. I originally bought it when the 'New Continent' was first released. It was so hyped, I wanted my own little piece of the new continent, and it was all I could afford at the time.

I'm not sure if this is what's being advocated, but forcing all landowners to give up their 16m parcels, regardless of what they're using it for - is throwing the baby out with the bath water. There are better ways of neutralizing the adfarming problem that don't involve forced confiscation of land.

Wouldn't a vendor that used that database NOT work for new players?


I mean if your not in the database what happens?

If you don't have the avatar's key, the script function just wont work. This is also the reason why its sometimes difficult to give a new player a no-transfer item as a gift, from vendors that automate this sort of thing.

Usually, the workaround for this is to have the new player receiving the gift visit the store themselves, and touch an object to collect their key first. It just ads an element of inconvienience to the gift recipient.

So its only used for gift vendors?

If you mean name2key databases, that's not all their used for. That's just the most common reason.

Another example are chat-to-IM gateways, such as what Max Case has on his website. Gateways like this allow you to send an IM to someone in-world from a website. You need to know the IM receipient's key in order to send them an instant message.

Just about any tool in Second Life that interfaces between out-world and in-world (Such as SL Exchange or OnRez) needs Name2Key information in order to function.

/13/f9/31610/1.html

I meant vendor wise.

Why doesn't LL provide this Key information then?

Is the question "why doesn't LL do something that would be simple for them and would make everyone's lives easier"?

I have heard assorted suggestions over the years that they are thinking of introducing an llName2Key function, but it hasn't happened.

I would rather LL provide it then be scanned for it.

If theres reasons its not provided then Id want to hear those.

LL is too lazy seems too convenient to me.

Me too. There's a LOT of stuff I would rather have LL provide than me making byzantine workarounds in scripting, but they haven't yet. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Point is, the av name2key dbs aren't evil. However, I don't think having a 16sqm plot is a justification for their existence and use in every mainland sim.

I can only speculate, but I think the reasons are twofold:

1) Name2Key was one of those "Torch & Pitchfork" issues circa 2004. Non-scripters heard the word 'Key' (as if it unlocked something), and freaked out that people wanted access to them. There was a lot of FUD around name2key lookup early on, which is probably still out there if you search the forum archives for Name2Key. Still, some of the concerns over having an in-world Name2Key lookup were valid (back then, at least): Such as worry over it being used to send avatars spam from the internet. Public, easily accessable 3rd party databases are so common now, I think this older concern is somewhat mute.

2) Prioritization of development resources. From what I understand, its no small effort to implement Name2Key lookup within SL (at least, using an LSL function to do it). There are other ways that have been proposed - such as a web function to lookup the info, but so far, Linden has kept their priorities elsewhere. If they're focused on bugfixing instead, I guess that's a good thing.

There's a JIRA proposal for adding Name2Key functionality here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-215

This thread is too tedious for me to read the whole thing but one mistake that seems to be occurring here is that somehow people are assuming having 16s is required by people who like to do keyscanning. Nothing of the sort is true. My wish (need?) to keyscan does not rely on the existence of 16sqm parcels and I don't think anyone elses does either.

Keyscanning is not a defense of the existence of 16s in my mind at least. Take or keep the 16s either way is fine I'll still need to keep a list of avatar names and their keys so I can use it for my personal maps and bots and so on.