Ban Ban Lines - the ultimate legalised griefing weapon

It's not always either or. Put it like this, if I create a blue swan, it doesn't mean that all I have to choose from in the future is keeping that blue swan in my pond or taking it away from the pond. I actually have the choice of creating a yellow swan instead or even a green crow. What I mean is that there are in fact other ways to protect land than using banlines. Access can be limitied just like now but totally without banlines. You speak as if the only choices we have are to either keep the banlines or get rid of them. I know this is often the case, people tend to get 'home blind' and don't seem to be able to choose other paths, ideas and solutions. Read my post further up about what I think! If you like the idea I suggest you find my post about it Jira (or the OP's post about the same issue) and comment there as that's the best place for suggesting things as LL reads everything posted there. It's in fact better than posting about it here in the forums. The more comments an issue gets in Jira, the higher up in the priority list it gets so come on now guys!

Which "entitlement" are you talking about? The right of a person to use the property they have bought with their hard earned moneyf? Or those who think we should all live in some kind of hippie dippy commune where those who have worked and gained some "digital space" should be required to share it with the masses?

The key phrase above is 'in my opinion'



If I do not wish to share the space I pay for with others at times, or at all for that matter, that is my perogative. Sometimes, in fact a lot of the time, I'm building on my land and want no interruptions to my concentration or building flow. This is why I pay for my own piece of SL. I get to say when I wish to be 'social'. Not others.



It's been said before and I'll say it again. The bans only extend 50m above ground level. If you're hitting banlines, you're flying too low. If you're hitting banlines you are over property others pay for the right to use. Instead of harping on getting rid of them maybe we should be discussing educating people about the uses. In my experience, it's generally the newer users who ban carte blanche on a constant basis.



SL is NOT a free world for those who choose to pay for it. In paying, this gives us rights to do certain things that those using the 'free' world feel obliged to complain about.

I pay quite a bit of tier, and on some of that land are builds created for use by the public, including a rather large sandbox which is open to all. I feel I have the right to use the rest of my land as I see fit

People keep pointing out that what we are paying for is basically server space, and this is true. But if I rent server space in the usual sense do I share my passwords with all and sundry because they think they have the right. The difference with SL is, you can visually identify what files i have on my server space. This i cannot prevent. But I can prevent you from accessing them if I so choose.

All I see in previous posts supporting the 'no banlines' idea is a lot of I's... I do this and I do that so why shouldn't everyone else. Well 'I' provide free space for residents using my own tier, 'I' don't expect everyone to do the same. 'I' understand we all have our own way and 'I' respect that.

Just wish others were as 'openminded'

~B

What I pay for is mine, to do with entirely as I please. That's my sense of entitlement.

What about having the place you bought and pay for surrounded by ugly red banlines that your neighbours set up and having your land value dropping down to almost nothing and not being able to enjoy the view in any direction or selling the land you just bought as noone wants it?



I didn't mean free as in not paying for it. Free has several meanings. I own land too and pay alot for it but I still consider this world pretty free in other aspects.

What I suggested in my posts was the option for people too keep the possibility to limit access to their land but to take away banlines at the same time. What's wrong with that? Noone will be able to access your land with this solution. You'd have to accept that they will pass your property though, just like irl where vehicles pass by your house or planes over your roof. I think that's a good compromise. We all have to learn to compromise in life.

If you're so anti social life that you want no risk of being watched or spoken to you really can't find that kind of privacy in SL anyway. People can always watch you and your property with their camera and you can always be contacted by someone standing outside of your banlines. The only difference is that they can't stand on your very property with their avatar but they can see just as much anyway as if they actually were standing on it.

Jeez, all this bitching and moaning makes me want to turn my ban lines ON, just to be spiteful.

As for this:



Um, too bad? I'm not going to give griefers the ability to push something nasty onto my land just so random vehicles can pass through.

A fine rebuttal, well turned and considered, except who is pete?Interesting; I have almost exactly the same sense of entitlement, except mine is more like "What you pay for is mine, to do with entirely as I please". I like my sense better.

Hillary?

It SHOULD be entirely possible to make neighbour's ban lines invisible or have the ability to turn them off visually, the alpha bleed is an eyesore.

However, there is absolutely positively no "right of access" for anyone in SL. Anyone. I too used to love to fly around but I respect anyone's right to make the land which they pay for THEIR land which they choose to keep open to the public or not.

Unfortunately, the people who are stating that most people do not intend to snoop or cause any other problems are judging by their own decent attitude and behaviour. In fact, ironically, as I am typing this I've just had some bozo I work with rl sneak up outside the window to make me jump - and that is mainly, in SL, why I have ban lines myself.

Mine don't really affect anyone, no one is close by and they have ban lines of their own anyway.

Perhaps it is mean of me to want tranquility, to want to have a place in SL where I can be in peace and quiet, where I may not want someone randomly landing and disturbing whatever quiet time I am having or an intimate conversation (as in private I mean, although there could be something else going on). I'm afraid I do not think so.

I make doubly sure. I am in the sky and I have strong security - the reason for this, and that I make sure that security is at maximum strength, is because if is exceptionally unlikely that people will just accidentally happen upon my place so if someone is there, then they are there deliberately at 760. Past experience has shown me that people simply do not respect the warnings etc and will keep coming back and back.

So my home is that. Locked to my own group which has just three people in it, plus access to trusted people whom I personally will add (even if only temporarily sometimes). I have literally just downsized from $200 a month to $16 a month on private island so I can still offer a free place for people to enjoy without crippling myself with debt for something bearly used (yes I know you loved it, those who were sad). The $40 a month for mainland is for me, if that makes me mean spirited, I guess I am just plain horrible.

BUMP

I am bumping this re the JIRA part ... this being important, although no doubt it will end up being buried as usual in people flinging stones at each other and screaming.

For the record, any flaming of me for saying that will be utterly disregarded by me. I am bored with the "sense of entitlement" too many people seem to feel gives them the right to use this forum as a vent for their personal issues.

OMG, it is so not cool to out someone's RL identity on the forums especially a sitting US senator! I have ARed you to the Secret Service - I think you'll enjoy their "chat" with you.

And thus, the need for ban lines becomes apparent.

I think that was a joke, tbh. I took it as such.

One man's joke is another's ban-able offense.

This is a complex issue with lots of emotion involved.

Who's right? Everyone!
Who's wrong? Everyone!

There are a set of folks who came to Second Life on the promise that they could 'own' virtual land. The idea of carving out a slice of the virtual world that is 'theirs' is enticing to many. Ownership implies control, and its only natural to assume that with control comes privacy. Whether this is true in reality is irrelevant. These folks use access lists, or 'whitelists' to secure their property. Many of them restrict access the moment they aquire the property, because it adds to that 'its mine' feeling.

There's another set of folks who came to Second Life on the promise that they could run a buisness here, and actually make money within our virtual economy. These folks are acutely aware of griefers, because they can affect their bottom line or the success of their buisness. These folks have no interest in Access Lists (how could they have customers with them on?), and instead focus on blacklists & specific banlists.

Yet another set of folks came to Second Life because its a huge environment ripe for exploration. There's lots to see and do here, and banlines impede that. Because they're often on the move, they have no interest in things like privacy, and griefers for the most part are a non-issue. Both whitelists and blacklists provide zero value to their SL experience, and often detract from it.

There are many other categories of folks who came to Second Life for different reasons, and have an equally different experience here. Each of them are important and have value.

When it comes to banlines, one size does not fit all, unfortunately. If someone can come up with a way to meet all these competing needs simutaneously, they deserve a cookie. Until then, I believe we're all just going to continue arguing this issue in circles, each of us speaking for our respective 'category'.

I am intregued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter ...

Actually, RIGHT there is the reason why all the flailing about on this Forum is essentially meaningless and why if people feel strongly about something, voting on JIRA is the way to actually DO something about it.

Great post Travis.

Bellissa, I think some of the folks saying "I do this" were simply trying to point out how they have managed to live in peace without encountering banlines. I think that's a valid thing to do on this thread, lest newer readers think that when you get land you immediately become so harassed that using banlines is inevitable ... or that there is no place in SL where you don't have them.

There are places, indeed some very large expanses, in SL without banlines.

If it smashes you out of SL, it's your computer not SL. I hit banlines all the time and it just bounces me back. People buy land for a reason and should have the right to keep unwanted people away. If not, what's the purpose of buying it? I bet if there was a toll fee to cross that land each time, you would find alternate routes. I don't have my banlines up on my land, but the security system is even worse as it teleport you back home instead of just bouncing you back a few meters.

Speak for yourself. By the way, how much land do you own?

That's exactly what I tried to do here, give you all a suggestion that's a good compromise.

We CAN get rid of the banlines and KEEP the limited land access at the same time.

No, more like logging in to see about 10 people you don't know having a party at your house. I logged in one day to see 3 people lounging at the gazebo and 7 on the patio. Not even one of them said a word to me. Not running a public housing facility and none of them are helping pay any of my tier costs. Before the security system, people use to just fly in, and just bump into you as if you had a magnet on you. Plus I got tired of cleaning up trash (beach balls, jeeps, etc.). So long live banlines.

You don't need banlines for that. Home Security orbs do that too. I guess you will be complaining about that next. Pay my monthly tier and you can fly over my land any time you want to.

That would be a great idea, but I guarentee you people will still complain.

I guess you never heard of camera view. I can stand outside of your home with your doors locked and windows tinted and still can see in and can get in if you have pose balls exposed. You must be still new to the game.

Most security systems start at 6 seconds minimum, but goes much higher.