Lindens define ageplay!

I personally don't see why this policy change sparks so much debate. Ageplay is a nice word for something much worse, that rational people consider inappropriate amongst other things, and the fact that LL is taking steps to curb it is a good thing.

If Ageplay is generating this much buzz...imagine if LL banned the advertisement of prostitution!! LOL

The "Bad" thing?

The BAD thing is that you're treating people that would *NEVER* act on their pedophilic attraction just like the criminals that have.

Back to square one we go. Ageplay is a blanket term for a lot of things, including your "inappropriate" part. For that matter, while i find the sexual ageplay icky to the extreme -- I'm not quite sure about how "much worse" it really is, ya know?



Well said, Jopsy. For that matter, I almost feel like this OP is saying

ageplay = sexual ageplay = pedophilia

Which, I mean, ageplay is not always sexual, and AFAWK, really, isn't pedophilia. Jes really icky.

Mari

Uh, no. If I were, I would push for the RL prosecution of ageplayers, which I don't, and would be silly. SL is not RL.

According to your logic, then, all furries who yiff are yearning to get it on with their dog.

Perhaps you'd care to tell us who is a pedophile here? Will your assumptions never end?

Intentionally or not...

You give the strong impression that you would like to.

I think we need to boil you down, extract all of your common sense, which is apparently of the HIGHEST quality, and bottle it and sell it.

Edit - I looked at the above and in this ascerbic thread it sounded like sarcasm - it's not...Jake has got exactly the right attitude, and I applaud him for it.

Ageplay is two adults in charge of the Avs. Whether they look like adults, dragons, children, pixies or small green blobs from planet X...it's still two adults. If the assumption here is that one of the players may NOT be an adult - that is an ENTIRELY different argument from ANYTHING to do with Ageplay...you could quite easily see two adult Avatars having sex, and never know that one of them was controlled by a child. As SL is a fantasy world, i find it totally plausible that any child players who DO exist would be more like to have an adult AV than a child - for a whole variety of reasons.

You REALLY ought to partake of some of Jake's Common Sense Extract(TM). AFAIK, most babyfurs are cute little critters that look like teddybears, and don't engage in sex. I'm sure your friend would also have dumped her land if a normal, regular, adult brothel had set up next to her too...so I guess you want to ban that next? Or how about if it wasn't a brothel, but an art gallery displaying fantasy erotic art (of the Boris Vallejo type)?

The problem with ALL these arguments is NOT "Where do you draw the line?"...it is "WHO draws the line?"

Colette's taxonomy looks accurate. It appears to me, looking at all the threads on this subject, that we have a broad consensus that LL's response is the right way to go or at least an acceptable compromise for all but one group within the "morality side" - people who are responding to this subject out of fear, rage or panic attack. It is necessary to apply reason to the objections they raise and the demands they make, but reasoning is not going to persuade them that what they are proposing amounts to a witch-hunt.

On the other hand, their emotional reactions deserve consideration even if they are not rational. At the very least, they need to vent. As I've said before, there are people in SL who have been victims of child molesters themselves. There are parents who know from their own experience there are real perverts lurking out there who are a danger to their children. Some of these people have posted in other threads, so I know they are there. I am increasingly convinced there are some who are repressing pedophilic impulses in themselves and who are therefore possibly the most panicky of all. And perhaps the biggest problem.

I am not going to tell these people their feelings are not valid, because they are. It is the draconian solutions they propose that are the problem here, because those "solutions" will not solve anything, will arguably make things worse, and in any event will not really quiet these people's inner terrors.

The ones who are repressing things are the major problem. Repression is a bad strategy for dealing with unacceptable thoughts, feelings, or impulses. The latter fester and build up, and the person lives in constant fear that some stimulus will come along that breaks through their inner barriers and makes them lose control. Once in a while, one does...And that is why some people are driven to try to impose their own prohibitions on others, far beyond the need for civil order and getting along in a social setting for disparate people.

There is a further subset among those, the ones who are being deliberately dishonest and demagogic, and who seek to vilify people who simply disagree with them. Those people are poisonous.

I agree.


Repression <-------------------------------------------------------------->Hysteria

Two ends of the same scale. I don't say this of everyone here posting concerns about ageplay by any means. But some of the strong overreaction really has me wondering.

I've been waiting for a week for someone to point out the major flaw in the whole "sexual ageplayers = pedophiles" issue.. finally someone has found it.

Thanks for posting it Jopsy.

One thing I don't understand is why sexual age players have not sought counseling? Although many of you aren't very logical, you show a lot of intelligence...surely you must feel and know that most people find your urges and desires repellent.

I would imagine that having such a desire would isolate you in RL in some ways...I would imagine that most people in RL would be repulsed by sexual age play in SL and that would mean it would be necessary to be secretive..not the best base for a RL relationship.

Instead of acting it out, wouldn't counseling be a better way of dealing with such urges in a healthy way?

There are some very good virtual therapists in SL.

If there is some benefit to this sad urge being acted out, please let us know. To me it would seem the more you act it out here, the less likely you are to be able to make healthy relationships in RL. It is not healthy to want to be a child in a sexual relationship or the adult...mostly because of the violation on trust and safety that children must have with adults to grow up healthy. Whether you are an adult playing a child or the adult in this scenario, I do suggest counseling...somewhere your innocence and trust were severely hurt and you need help.

This has very little to do with freedom, or casinos or baby furs (my alt is a baby fur). It has to do with pain and some profound breach of trust and safety that is being acted out...

Btw, for people who support freedom of speech, there has been a strong tendency for supporters to just shut people down who don't agree with them...freedom is a two way street.

You're assuming they haven't. And yes, I bet most do know society takes a dim view of them.



According to the one I interviewed, more than you could possibly believe. Imagine being gay and knowing you could never, ever have the kind of partner you're attracted to. I wound up feeling sad for the guy.



You can hardly blame them for not revealing themselves here, among the flock of harpies, can you?

Good point Lor...I wasn't thinking of them revealing themselves tho...not to us or SL residents..unless its safe for them...they have rights too.

Makes it sound like you have identified sexual ageplayers in this thread. I looked back and haven't seen anyone admit to that.

I'm with Lorelei on this. There's no "cure" for what they have. The only real life therapy available for this consists of pointing out to them just how vile their desires are, and what a terrible effect it has on children, and enforcing them into a life of celibacy. You talke about "normal relationships" as if that's a real option - but that just goes back to the experiments of the 60's & 70's trying to make gay men "straight" - using methods that today would be outlawed, and which failed anyway.

Is there a benefit in SL sexual ageplay - I'm sure fomr their point there is - if only in the fact that they get to talk to another person who thinks like they do.

And as to people "coming out" here - you ARE kidding right? Lorelei called them Harpies...my image was of all those lions waiting for one little lamb.

(the irony of the above is not lost on me).

Asking people to prove their point is not shutting them down. Simply ingnoring nonsensical arguments and irration al venting is not shutting them down. Free speech is the right to speak and to think. That is not compromised here in the least. Everyone has the right to state thier position. That does not mean the opinion needs to be read, or agreed with or respected.

Shutting someone down in a argument does not silence their voice, just thier arguments. Perhaps an argument that can be shut down is idefensible?

And this bothers you even if they keep it in private and your not involved in it in any way? If so then take my advice and stop worrying about what other people do and worry about yourself. I duno why people get so worked up about what OTHER people do. This is why we have so many haters in SL.

Unfortunately from what I see and how people are reading and responding in some cases to issues I think that the driving force behind a lot of posts is this which begs me to wonder who we are protecting here...

Okay I know why Linden labs is doing what it is it may not be very effective but I can understand that.

I see the panic and Im not totally sure why and I see the witch burning and then I see the people who are not worried on either side trying to figure out how on earth these arguments are being thought up err not yours but the ones on this thread about definitions etc .

Since the childrens avatars are driven by adults and the actual kids signing up are going to be playing an adult av (for one thing its the default av and its cheaper you can get semi decent ones for free and even 1 linden not to mention what kid wants to play a kid since kids are always trying to grow up..) I get confused and to me I believe the ones that are on the witch hunts and the ones sayng its all evil are actually the ones that fall into the slot of thinking about it themselves but not acting and are terrified they might act on it. I also think its what drives people to put such labels on others like "pedophile" or "rapist" in this situation to me it all smacks of trying to hold back a tidal wave on their own feelings etc. Because I see no rational in how any of thsi could even be thought of unless you yourself are thinking of it. We all use ourselves as a barometer and well the barometers are speaking..

Something about this reminds me of a bunch of bible thumping Christians trying to define homosexuality or some shit... Really to me it's no big deal what other people do with their own lives. As long as they don't ask me to get involved in it. Take Vore for example. It's a sexual fetish i am not fond of at all... But i will not discriminate those who do like it... I just don't like the idea of my partner eating me... I don't particularly like Tentacle rape either... But i won't tell someone their retarded for it... It's their choice what they like. Now my lifestyle is Furry. I don't do it for sexual reasons (even though i have it with my partner who is indeed a furry but not a animal), just like not all age players are into it for sex...

Those of you who think they are can go ahead and leave SL now, because your wrong and have been proven so and the fact that you continue to debate it only proves that your a troll who likes to feed on other peoples frustration... That is another thing that turns me off. Except this one actually causes damage to others. What i want to ask you all is "What is it about other peoples role play of ageplay directly effects you as a person?" because i believe it doesn't hurt anyone who isn't involved in it. The fact that your looking at it only shows that you like it... or you wouldn't keep looking at it and trying to argue and debate it...

yes and watch out for those rock and roll tracks with things playing in the background and those harry potter books they will convert your kids to satanism (newest one on the list i saw last year i think it was) and so and so is promoting whatever in his film or record

blah

for the record I cant wait till the next Harry Potter Book comes out

I'm not going to reply to everything in this topic, as that would result in a reply-zilla which few people would read. Instead, I'll reply to a few quotes from Aminom Marvin.



How would you like it if someone said that ALL Germans (even in the 21st Century) were Nazis?
Would you be able to see that this is not true?
Would it make any difference if the person taking this view tried to defend it with : "Yes, I am judgemental against Nazis. How could this be a bad thing?".
If not, what implications does this have for your "Yes, I am judgemental against pedophiles. " excuse?








So... all those people banned for violating the CS (griefers, for example... such as the huge numbers of W-Hat members struck down by LL) were banned due to an "unenforcible" CS?

In RL, proving that someone killed someone else can be pretty hard. You have to spend a lot of time, money and effort gathering convincing evidence. In SL, the Lindens have access to server logs for evidence.
In RL, catching a criminal "on the run" can involve a LOT of police effort.
In SL, the Lindens can ban IP ranges.

Sure, enforcement in SL is not perfect. But, I would argue, it is a heck of a lot easier to enforce the ToS/CS in SL than it is to enforce the law in RL.



It will show the media that if they use smear tactics, they will get what they want.
The media can sometimes behave like terrorist groups, by using "public pressure" to "persuade" people to change their minds.
Imagine if the media really did convince LL to ban ALL ageplay, PG and mature, in SL.
Do you think that the next time the media see something they don't like in SL, they will leave it alone? Or do you think they will see the potential to mould SL to be what they want it to be?

The Lindens may not be perfect, but at least they make an attempt to listen to us, their paying customers. Even if they don't listen to us because they genuinely care what we think, they need to listen to us because we are their paying customers.
The media, on the other hand, have no reason to care what we think at all.

Would you prefer the media pulling the strings to control SL?




The fact that this is sparking so much debate might perhaps suggest that the issue is not as black-and-white as those keen for an ageplay ban think it is?

After all, if it was really such a reasonable thing to ban ageplay, do you really think so many SL citizens would be so concerned about it?

Do all rational people consider consensual roleplay by adults in private "inappropriate"?
Why would most people be against what other adults do in private (as such things cannot effect them).... for rational reasons? Surely the only reasons for stopping adults doing things to each other in consensual, private situations is an irrational thought that "dammit, I have more right to tell those people what to do in their own homes then they have privacy in their own homes?"



So...

is trying to promote ageplay?

It sounds like he is just asking for a clarification to me.

Ironically, your Ad Hominem attack against ageplayers by labelling them pedophiles is actually more a case of "promoting" than this - because unlike Raven's topic-starting post above, yours DOES promote a specific point of view.




And how exactly are you such an expert in the psychological profiles of pedophiles?
Why would a pedophile, who, it is usually assumed, wants to rape/abuse children.... want to pretend to be one?



Given the outcry over this small move by LL, I doubt they will be banning ageplay.
Even people who hate ageplay are scared about the implications for freedom of speech in SL... and the last thing LL wants is to make its customers worried about their freedom of speech in a world billed as "your world, your imagination".

I think the "flat-chested midget admirers" group is a joke, more than anything else.

Again, you assume that ageplayers are pedos, without any evidence whatsoever, and despite ample evidence to the contrary being presented to you.



When you are using quotating marks, please quote the source. In this case, please attribute the phrase "extremist witch-hunting fundamenalist neocons". I would be interested to know who said that. Try using the QUOTE= tag in posts.

Slippery slopes ARE a valid concern. One might not be able to assume that everything leads to a slippery slope, but it is reasonable to be worried about the possibility.

Examples of false analogy and "semantics twisting" would also be appreciated.



I agree in principle, however I also suggest that these sales be taxed, so that the government can afford to give some free common sense to the less fortunate.

So... um.. people should go into counselling because some people thinks what they do is repellant? As Griffin said, that sounds alot like the "Dehomosexualization" folks.
I guess it needs to be repeated. Ageplay is between two consenting adults.



"...having such a desire?" The desire to dress up like someone younger in order to have sex? How much do YOUR sexual desires and fantasies isolate you in RL?

I think you're also saying that being secretive in SL isn't the best base for a RL relationship? I don't get it. What do SL relationships have to do with RL ones?
That would be a specious argument, methinks.



Awesome! Thank you for this diagnosis, Dr. Freud! I'm sure those that are into ageplay (Again, something that happens between two adults) appreciate your suggestions.
Making broad, sweeping statements, based only on your personal (and ignorant) opinions and tastes? How is that fair?



What are you basing this statement on?



Who was shut down? Most people have only tried to inform and educate and fight against the ignorance and assumptions that the "OMG, Ageplayers are paedophiles!" camp are putting out there.



What effect does ageplay have on children?



Amen to that one.

This is becoming a witch hunt and is starting to sound like the all-to-common "Homoseksherals are the Devil's Children" chants that we keep hearing.

So, one last time. Everyone say it with me:

Ageplay is NOT Paedophilia.

Thank you for restating that angel.

Yea I'm not directly in the liking of age play but i don't necessarily dislike it. I like the cute factor of it, but if it goes beyond that i back away. Of course i will never judge a person by what they do with their own life hehe. Considering i know they aren't really kids because kids aren't allowed in SL and never have been. ^_^

---

Unrelated to this, I was told something that intrigued me just now. Has nothing to do with actual ageplayers, but instead pedophiles (two different things).

~Every minute that a pedophile molests fake children online, is a minute that they aren't molesting real children in actual life.~

Even if convicted and imprisoned, a pedophile will still have the feelings to do it. It doesn't change, but they usually learn to control it. A message to those of you holding the flaming pitchforks here, wouldn't you want them doing it to consensual adults or NPCs then to have them after your children? As long as public sex doesn't become the issue i don't care.

Same thing about violent video games. For some people violent video games is the only thing keeping them from pulling out a shotgun and going on a real life rampage. Take that away and your doing more damage to the society.

Well, i feel I was quoted a litlte out of context, but...

None. Assuming that both players are adults.

Also, there's a common statement that pedophilia is an "unnatural" desire. I'd dispute this since pedophiles are born, not made (whilst some claim to have been abused themselves, a lot describe their childhood as perfectly happy).

Celibacy - now THAT is an unnatural state.